Russiagate

The question is no longer about collusion. It's about treason.

Problem, though:
http://www.nytimes.com/1861/01/25/news/treason-against-the-united-states.html?pagewanted=all

Treason has ever been deemed the highest crime which can be committed in civil society; since its aim is an overthrow of the Government and a public resistance by force of its just powers, its tendency is to create universal danger and alarm, and on this account it has often been visited with the deepest public resentment. Hence, by the common law, the the punishment of high treason was accompanied by all the refinements in cruelty which were oftentimes literally and studiously executed. But under the Constitution of the United States the power of punishing the crime of treason against the United States is exclusive in Congress; and the trial of the offence belongs exclusively to the Federal tribunals. A State cannot take cognizance or punish the offence, whatever it may do in relation to the offence of treason committed exclusively against itself.

It appears only the Federal Government can bring charges of Treason... and right now, the party guilty of treason is in control of said Federal Government...
 
Also, from the emails:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEdm3zKXsAAm7pD.jpg
and
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEdnhw-WsAEbW9N.jpg

Page 2:
Goldstone: Don hope all is well. Emin asked that I schedule a meeting with you and The Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow on Thursday.

Don Jr: How about 3 at our office? Thanks rob appreciate you helping set it up.

Goldstone: Perfect... I won't sit in on the meeting, but will bring them at 3pm and introduce you etc. I will send the names of the two people meeting with you for security when I have them later today.

Don Jr: Great. It will likely be Paul Manafort (campaign boss) my brother in law and me.

Page 4:
Goldstone: Emin called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting. The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras and they offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be useful to your father. This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government support for Mr. Trump. I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it's ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.

Don Jr: Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer.

Goldstone: Let me know when you are free to talk with Emin about this Hillary info.

So, Don Jr knew quite well what the actual intent of the meeting was... he is guilty as fuck. So is Manafort and Kushner...
 
1.) what is the law is so unclear, that even the son of the president, even (one would expect) after instructions by some very expensive lawyer, is unable to avoid traps which lead him into "confessional territory" (I like this phrase).
That's one possible cover story. You'd have to be an idiot to believe it.
2.) what is evil here is that the son of a candidate collects, from whatever sources, information which may appear damaging for the other candidates.
The law says that colluding with foreign governments who are trying to undermine the US government, impose regime change etc, is illegal.
The law also forbids knowingly buying stolen property, knowingly paying for illegally obtained stuff, etc - acting as a fence or as the backer of a criminal enterprise, on purpose, for gain.
 
Also...
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/10/15950590/donald-trump-jr-new-york-times-illegal

According to legal experts, Trump Jr. very likely committed a federal criminal offense by doing this. Campaign finance law expressly prohibits soliciting campaign assistance from foreign sources, and this email chain clearly shows Trump Jr. doing that. “The law states that no person shall knowingly solicit or accept from a foreign national any contribution to a campaign of an item of value,” explains Ryan Goodman, a former Defense Department special counsel and current editor of the legal site Just Security. “There is now a clear case that Donald Trump Jr. has met all the elements of the law, which is a criminally enforced federal statute.

Trumps campaign team is dirty and complicit in a federal crime... end of story.

Better still, it appears Trump EXPECTED to be getting information from this meeting... Trump himself talks about giving a major speech the following week on the Clintons two days before the meeting.


At this point, are we expected to believe that Trump's campaign manager (Manafort), son (Jr), and Son in Law (Kushner) all went to this meeting without informing Trump? If we are expected to do that, then what is the rationale behind NOT informing him, except to attempt to protect him from their knowingly illegal dealings with a foreign state?
 
Which is basically, by definition, collusion... you do understand this, right?
I understand. Whenever "collusion" becomes important in reality of the application of law, we have a case of a totalitarian society, or at least something close to it. Same for "treason". Ok, "treason" is something quite common in many law codes. But it is seldom used in civilized societies. The only non-totalitarian use is against government people who have violated some oath of office or so. But a free man, living in a free society, cannot do such things as "treason".

Much the same, this is why you are not free to incite panic by screaming Fire in a movie theater...
This is a nice example used to argue against complete freedom of speech. In this case, it is irrelevant. The example is irrelevant anyway (I would like to know how many people have been imprisoned in the history of mankind for crying "fire" in cinemas).
The law says that colluding with foreign governments who are trying to undermine the US government, impose regime change etc, is illegal.
Fine. But nobody tried any regime change, neither against Obama nor against Trump, except what Soros, Clinton and Co are trying now, so what's the point of this? Or is Trump winning the election a case of regime chance, where the deep state lost power or so? That would be interesting coming from your side.
The law also forbids knowingly buying stolen property, knowingly paying for illegally obtained stuff, etc - acting as a fence or as the backer of a criminal enterprise, on purpose, for gain.
Which stolen property? Which payment, which buying?
 
I understand. Whenever "collusion" becomes important in reality of the application of law, we have a case of a totalitarian society, or at least something close to it. Same for "treason". Ok, "treason" is something quite common in many law codes. But it is seldom used in civilized societies. The only non-totalitarian use is against government people who have violated some oath of office or so. But a free man, living in a free society, cannot do such things as "treason".

So you don't feel that a group trying to elevate a man to the highest office in the country needs to be under more scrutiny to make sure said person isn't beholden to a hostile foreign government? Curious.

This is a nice example used to argue against complete freedom of speech. In this case, it is irrelevant. The example is irrelevant anyway (I would like to know how many people have been imprisoned in the history of mankind for crying "fire" in cinemas).

So you are claiming that it is "irrelevant" if someone wishes to intentionally endanger another person? Curiouser and curioser... in that case, we may as well do away with rape laws, murder laws, and the like...

Fine. But nobody tried any regime change, neither against Obama nor against Trump, except what Soros, Clinton and Co are trying now, so what's the point of this? Or is Trump winning the election a case of regime chance, where the deep state lost power or so? That would be interesting coming from your side.

Are you intentionally being dishonest, or did you fail to notice and/or understand the comma between "undermine the US government" and "impose regime change"? They don't have to do both - just one of them suffices to fall into that bucket.

Which stolen property? Which payment, which buying?
Stolen property does not just mean physical - in other words, if I hack into your computer, and steal your email, then sell them to a marketing firm after advising said marketing firm I have obtain said emails by hacking your computer, I am guilty of selling stolen property, and the marketing firm is guilty of buying stolen property.

Payment in the instance of Trump Jr and Co being their gaining of power in the US government that can then be used to further line their pockets (as has been done repeatedly, such as Trumps use of Trump properties for government business, et al - he has dumped MILLIONS into his own coffers this way)

I'm really not sure why you are so determined to twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid the obvious and logical conclusion here, except that you have an ulterior motive...
 
I understand. Whenever "collusion" becomes important in reality of the application of law, we have a case of a totalitarian society, or at least something close to it.
Nonsense. Racketeering laws and organized crime laws are necessities in any industrial capitalist economy.
The only non-totalitarian use is against government people who have violated some oath of office or so.
Trump was in violation of his oath of office as soon as he took it, on this basis alone (and there are several others).
Fine. But nobody tried any regime change, neither against Obama nor against Trump,
Against the US of course. You post the strangest things.
The Russians just did - subverting the US election and seeing to the installation of their preferred President of the US, a destructive one, by arranging the timely slander of his opponent via stolen mail (at least - the full extent of Russian arrangements is not publicly known). The US did similar things to subvert governments all over, as part of its "rule", remember? That was bad, when the US did that.
Which stolen property? Which payment, which buying?
Emails and other stored information stolen, at least. Trump's campaign buying, and possibly blackmailed. The payment? Interesting question: as possibilities we have the firing of Bharara, the altering of the Republican Party's platform relative to Russia, and the diminution of sanctions on Russia, so far. With more to come, apparently.

All of that in violation of Trump's oath of office - as well as several laws.
 
Problem, though:
It appears only the Federal Government can bring charges of Treason... and right now, the party guilty of treason is in control of said Federal Government...
No one is getting convicted for treason. And it's not only that it would depend on congress. We aren't at war with Russia, and you can't prove intent to overthrow the government.
 
No one is getting convicted for treason. And it's not only that it would depend on congress. We aren't at war with Russia, and you can't prove intent to overthrow the government.

I think we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt intent to overthrow the government, in that we have obvious and exceptional involvement from foreign agents within the US Government and its decision making process...
 
What about if Trup establishes good relation with Russia and the cold war will be reduced , Would you continue bitching ?

You are attempting to say "Do the ends justify the means", to which I say no, they do not.

Now, if Putin is dropkicked off a balcony and someone who isn't a tyrannical douche-nugget starts to reform the Russian government to be less of a "make political enemies disappear" style place, then perhaps Russia will be someone we will want a good relationship with. Until such a time, however...
 
Nonsense. Racketeering laws and organized crime laws are necessities in any industrial capitalist economy.

Trump was in violation of his oath of office as soon as he took it, on this basis alone (and there are several others).

Against the US of course. You post the strangest things.
The Russians just did - subverting the US election and seeing to the installation of their preferred President of the US, a destructive one, by arranging the timely slander of his opponent via stolen mail (at least - the full extent of Russian arrangements is not publicly known). The US did similar things to subvert governments all over, as part of its "rule", remember? That was bad, when the US did that.

Emails and other stored information stolen, at least. Trump's campaign buying, and possibly blackmailed. The payment? Interesting question: as possibilities we have the firing of Bharara, the altering of the Republican Party's platform relative to Russia, and the diminution of sanctions on Russia, so far. With more to come, apparently.

All of that in violation of Trump's oath of office - as well as several laws.


Did the stock market dropped since Trump got into presidency, Is the economy any worse, are the middle east conflict any more then during Obama administration ?
 
Did the stock market dropped since Trump got into presidency, Is the economy any worse, are the middle east conflict any more then during Obama administration ?

You are assuming the stock market to be a moral object - of course the markets improved - companies LOVE the idea of having reduced taxes (even at the cost of American lives).

The economy has been on a steady upward curve for some time, thanks to the policies Obama helped implement. Trump gets to take exactly zero credit for that.

Last I checked, Obama didn't start the war in the Middle East... and Trump certainly hasn't the ability to stop it.

All three of your comments are utterly irrelevant red herrings...
 
You are assuming the stock market to be a moral object - of course the markets improved - companies LOVE the idea of having reduced taxes (even at the cost of American lives).

The economy has been on a steady upward curve for some time, thanks to the policies Obama helped implement. Trump gets to take exactly zero credit for that.

Last I checked, Obama didn't start the war in the Middle East... and Trump certainly hasn't the ability to stop it.

All three of your comments are utterly irrelevant red herrings...


I voted for Obama when he ran first : because he was going to pull our troops from Iraq. What did he do ?
He pooled the out to Afghanistan , than got ourselves involved in Syria, Somalia, back to Iraq, He bought back the cold war, started a mistrust with Turkey.
If Trump does not have the ability , but the conflict in Syria is slowing down.
 
What about if Trup establishes good relation with Russia and the cold war will be reduced , Would you continue bitching ?
The Cold War ended in 1990. Good relations with Putin's government could be a very bad thing, depending on the terms. Trump's notion of forming a joint Russian/American cybersecurity force to oversee US government security was not a good sign of things to come.
Did the stock market dropped since Trump got into presidency, Is the economy any worse, are the middle east conflict any more then during Obama administration ?
The stock market is a rich person's bubble, who cares at the moment; the economy is still running on Obama's competent management, as much as he could get done without Congress (much better shape than when he took over); the Middle East looks like it's getting worse again, but we shouldn't blame Trump until we see how he handles things - so far he's been a fuckup of the first water, but he has a history of learning on the job - the question then being what he's up to, what is he trying to do?
 
I voted for Obama when he ran first : because he was going to pull our troops from Iraq. What did he do ?
He pooled the out to Afghanistan , than got ourselves involved in Syria, Somalia, back to Iraq, He bought back the cold war, started a mistrust with Turkey.
If Trump does not have the ability , but the conflict in Syria is slowing down.

... you are fucking delusional. He did not "bring back the cold war", nor did he start the mistrust with Turkey. Your beloved Putina is the one in a giant pissing match with, literally, the rest of the world.

Turkish distrust has been around long before obama:
https://www.rferl.org/a/1103825.html
Prague, 17 July 2003 (RFE/RL) -- It has been nearly two weeks since U.S. forces in northern Iraq briefly detained a group of Turkish soldiers, setting off a flurry of accusations and diplomatic activity between Washington and Ankara. But despite efforts on both sides to mend fences, relations between the NATO allies remain chilly.

2003... that would place it, hmm, squarely in George W's administration.

Erdoğan has only exacerbated issues in recent years with his actions...
 
What about if Trup establishes good relation with Russia and the cold war will be reduced , Would you continue bitching ?
The cold war is over. All Trump can do is restart it.

I do not want the US to have "good relations" with a country who is invading and subjugating other countries.
 
What about if Trup establishes good relation with Russia and the cold war will be reduced , Would you continue bitching ?
It's easy to establish good relations with other countries if you don't care about what they do. We could have made a treaty with Nazi Germany if we wanted to, would that have been good?
 
The story so far:

Trump Jr. denied having any meeting with Russians.

NYT publishes story about him meeting with Russians. He then changes his story - the meeting was about orphans; it had nothing to do with the campaign.

NYT publishes story about him meeting with Russians to discuss dirt on Clinton's campaign. He then changes his story again - yes, it was supposed to be about that dirt, but it really wasn't - but he asked the campaign manager to come anyway.

Emails are then released indicating that he was told, via email, that a "Russian government attorney" offered him "very high level and sensitive information" that would "incriminate" Clinton. After that email he set up the meeting and sought out that information.

And that, folks, is collusion with a foreign government to sway an election.
 
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