The only people I see crying about Trump are the few remaining honest and intelligent Republicans. Democrats along with the civilized world are rightfully angry and afraid. They aren't crying.
Russiagate
- Thread starter billvon
- Start date
We may not have him for long. Support for his impeachment is far higher than his approval rating.
Latest in the Trump-Russian collusion debacle -
Trump Jr. claims he never had a meeting with any Russians.
On Saturday a story is published about his meeting with a Russian agent. "That was nothing," he scoffs. "It was about orphans and had nothing to do with the campaign."
On Sunday a story is published about what the meeting was about - an offer for dirt on Clinton. "Well, uh, yeah, she said she had dirt, and I might have invited Trump's campaign manager" he admits. "But her dirt wasn't very good."
On Monday he hires a criminal defense lawyer.
One can only wonder what tomorrow brings.
More gossip story for the news media
Juicy treason gossip?
Well, you know ...
Apuzzo, Matt, Jo Becker, Adam Goldman, and Maggie Haberman. "Trump Jr. Was Told in Email of Russian Effort to Aid Campaign". The New York Times. 10 July 2017. NYTimes.com. 10 July 2017. http://nyti.ms/2uKR1HL
... it can't get too much worse, tomorrow. At least, I don't think.
I mean, even if this was it, process would still require time before everything falls off the cliff.
Between the smoking gun we're looking for and the bloody bludgeon Donald the Younger offered, I don't know, what tomorrow brings, but please let it not be a mass grave full of undocumented eastern European construction workers and wouldabeen fashion models.
No, really, it's true I'm not expecting a mass grave ... yet.
Okay, okay, okay. I'm not expecting a mass grave.
Still, though, whether it's Mike Flynn or Jeff Sessions thinking people wouldn't know, or just these two-bit players in a national cry for help, how did villainy become so damnably simplistic? I don't even like to call it cartoonish, because cartoon villains are better at their game than this, and they're supposed to be cartoonishly awful about their villainy; they are, after all, cartoon villains.
The Trump Administration? Hell, the Trump family? Yeah, they're real. As real as Big Macs or tapeworm, but, I mean, y'know ... at least those things can be argued to have a useful purpose in nature.
Unusual incompetence and venality gossip?
Or are we just talking lying about everything, steady as she goes.
It's a good thing Trump and his crew only lie to Congress and the news media folks, and not to their voters or the American people ever ever. Because that would be bad - right?
Bells
Staff member
And now claims that the email to set up the meeting informed him that the 'dirt on Clinton' had come from the Russian Government and he pretty much confirmed it by declaring on Twitter that he "had to listen" if someone approached him with information that could help his father's campaign.
Which pretty much proves that he knowingly colluded with a foreign Government's interference with the election..
Declarations that President Trump did not know.. Well.. The visuals of a photo taken in November last year, would cast doubts on that one..
What will tomorrow bring?
I suspect that would depend solely on whether they are able to keep Trump's phone out of his short stubby fingers.
Did you say that with Obama?
Bells
Staff member
Seth Abramson's step by step breakdown is a thing to behold..
Pay particular attention to how Trump Jr, Manafort and Kushner then wrote Trump's speech on anti Clinton information they had gathered from the Russian Government, in Trump tower (the meeting was held there while Trump was there, holding strategy meetings), which Trump announced that he would give said speech on the 13th of June, and then had to delay it due to the Pulse Nightclub shootings.. He then gave the speech a couple of weeks later, and declared that a hostile Government had a "blackmail file" on Clinton, the terminology, as Abramson points out, is problematic in itself.
72 hours after the June 9 meeting with the Russians, Wikileaks began the dump of intel on Clinton, which was gathered by the Russians.
The question now is whether the now President attended the meeting in some way, shape or form - seeing it was in his building while he was present in said building, it is hard to imagine that this happened without his knowledge. As Abramson points out, it may explain the GOP's sudden conspiracy that it must have been the Democrats who sent the Russian lawyer to them, to set him up to give him information that would damage Clinton, which as one right wing pundit noted, was a laughable conspiracy and downright stupid.
Guessing they are now trying to delete twitter off all of Trump's devices and hiding in a dark closet..
Pay particular attention to how Trump Jr, Manafort and Kushner then wrote Trump's speech on anti Clinton information they had gathered from the Russian Government, in Trump tower (the meeting was held there while Trump was there, holding strategy meetings), which Trump announced that he would give said speech on the 13th of June, and then had to delay it due to the Pulse Nightclub shootings.. He then gave the speech a couple of weeks later, and declared that a hostile Government had a "blackmail file" on Clinton, the terminology, as Abramson points out, is problematic in itself.
72 hours after the June 9 meeting with the Russians, Wikileaks began the dump of intel on Clinton, which was gathered by the Russians.
The question now is whether the now President attended the meeting in some way, shape or form - seeing it was in his building while he was present in said building, it is hard to imagine that this happened without his knowledge. As Abramson points out, it may explain the GOP's sudden conspiracy that it must have been the Democrats who sent the Russian lawyer to them, to set him up to give him information that would damage Clinton, which as one right wing pundit noted, was a laughable conspiracy and downright stupid.
Guessing they are now trying to delete twitter off all of Trump's devices and hiding in a dark closet..
Careful, your ignorance bias is showing...
Well, don't forget - such "gossip" ended Nixon's presidency.
Schmelzer
Valued Senior Member
Thanks. Useful information. For Americans,
1.) what is the law is so unclear, that even the son of the president, even (one would expect) after instructions by some very expensive lawyer, is unable to avoid traps which lead him into "confessional territory" (I like this phrase).
That means, the USA is not a state of law. In a state of law, everybody should be able to know what is legal and what is not, so that he is able to behave in a legal way. And that means, accidental confessions of criminal things are reserved to extremely stupid guys, moreover, to guys without any support which prevents them from making such stupid confessions.
2.) what is evil here is that the son of a candidate collects, from whatever sources, information which may appear damaging for the other candidates. Ups.
One can imagine a society where using damaging information about other candidates in a campaign is considered amoral, where candidates are obliged to restrict themselves from using such personal attacks. This would be utopia, in particular in comparison with the reality of actual American campaign reality.
Beyond this utopia, collecting information damaging other candidates is fair game. The sources are irrelevant - or the information is damaging, then it is damaging even if the the source is evil. Or it is not, then the source is irrelevant.
A society where simply collecting information which may be useful is already criminal is totalitarian.
Bells
Staff member
Really.. This is what you have left?
Hacking and interfering with an election is just "collecting information damaging other candidates is fair game"?
You're joking right?
The source broke the law, hacked people's emails and computers, interfered with an election to try to ensure their preferred candidate won the election, which soon after said hacking and information was provided, the candidate in question suddenly marched to a different tune, to appease the foreign government that was interfering in the election for his benefit and theirs. And you think the source is irrelevant?
That's what you are going with? How utterly pathetic. No, honestly, this is a laughable excuse that no one with two functioning brain cells should be relying on.
Even IF we assume you are saying this in good faith (and I simply cannot suspend my belief long enough to even entertain the idea that you are, that is how convoluted your current attempt at defense is), there is something overriding this - IGNORANCE of the law is no excuse. Just because Trump Jr may claim he didn't know something was illegal, it is still illegal, and he is subject to the same penalties as anyone else in such a position.
This ignorance just further proves that Trump and co are utterly and completely unqualified to hold these high positions of office and public power.
Schmelzer
Valued Senior Member
In a reasonable state of law, where everybody knows the law, this makes sense. In a totalitarian state, where it is simply impossible to know the law (because even the certainly very expensive and therefore probably quite good lawyers which Trump can afford have been unable to prepare him adequately) this makes sense too, to clarify that if you don't abide the Big Brother, you have no chance.
BTW, in civilized countries you will not be punished if you did not know the law. In Germany, for example, there is §17 StGB. If you err about your action violating a law, and were unable to avoid this error, you cannot be penalized. Of course, this is quite theoretical, and is seldom applied. You would have to show that you were unable to avoid the error, which is quite hard. But this is part of a civilized society that it recognizes this possibility.
And, moreover, in a free society you have the right to talk with everybody, about whatever one likes to talk about. Except you have some job where you have accepted the obligation not to talk about certain things to others.
And what are we hearing from the White House? Thunderous silence! Will the White House continue to hide behind a video blackout at the daily presser? Will they cancel it?
Schmelzer
Valued Senior Member
Sorry, no, that Trump Jun. has participated in hacking is new to me. What I have seen was only that he was talking with some evil person who promised to tell some evil information about Clinton, which could have been used in the campaign.
If the only question is that you, as a free person, have the right to talk with that person, to receive the evil information, and to distribute it, then, yes, the source has to be irrelevant in a free society. To decide if this person has done something illegal or not, is not your obligation before talking to somebody.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Except your beloved Mother Russia doesn't honor those declarations.
Which is basically, by definition, collusion... you do understand this, right? Trump Junior has admitted to colluding with a hostile foreign power...
And in the US, the law that Trump Jr has broken is fairly straight forward. The idea is as well - he willingly went into a meeting with someone who was offering ill-gotten gains because he expected to receive said ill-gotten gains in order to benefit his fathers campaign.
Indeed, you have the right to talk with anyone about whatever you like - you are NOT, however, exempt from consequences. This is why you are free to look for a hitman, but if you get caught in a sting operation and charged with conspiracy to commit murder, you are fucked (and rightfully so) - what you are attempting to suggest is that the person looking to have someone else killed should be off scott free... doesn't work that way.
Much the same, this is why you are not free to incite panic by screaming Fire in a movie theater...
The question is no longer about collusion. It's about treason.