rites of a non-mythological setting

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smoking revolver
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How do you think, what is the reason for these initiation rites, that do not initiate into anything, for example, college freshmen being smeared with food stuffs, physical abuse in the army of the new recruits, etc.?

The standard initiation rites carry with them a mythology and they initiate the subject into another perception of world and oneself.

However these non-mythological rites, as I see it, only abuse and give nothing.

So may we think that these rites are a regression of the original initiation rites into secret societies?
Or maybe they are just to show the "newbies" their place and who's the boss and they have no relation to the mythological initiation rites?
Or both? Your thoughts?
 
It's like getting "jumped in" to a gang.
I knew a guy who joined a gang way back in the late 50's, early 60's.
The tradition for the Puerto Rican gangs in NYC back then were for the new recruits to fist fight the toughest guy in the gang, until one of you couldn't get up.
It didn't matter if you won (most people lost badly) all that mattered was that you were willing to stand up and get your ass beat to prove yourself and your heart to the gang.

I see it as not really a whole lot different than that.
You sacrificed yourself (to some degree or another) to the group.
If you are willing to take some level of abuse "like a man" you prove that you are brave, and prove that you can be counted on.
 
I think these rites are relics of ancient initiations.

The standard initiation rites are connected with a mythology and those we speak about aren’t, but they both have a same goal.
As Avatar said, they initiate the subject into another perception of world and oneself.

Each society had its own forms of initiation, i.e. ways to bring new member into world of steady norms and habits. Object of initiation mostly were young males at the threshold of their maturity (different cultures have different interpretations of this term).

Childhood has been often aborted violently during the initiation rites.

First hunt solely in the dark and unknown forest, mutilation of certain parts of the body or bringing his first head of the enemy to the community.

Today’s communities and societies rites are actually imitation of former initiations.
Still new, ‘immature’ member has to deserve his place in the ‘world of men’, i.e. in the society or community he’s joining.

If anyone was a boy scout, then should know the initiation when new member is left to spend night in the wood alone, while others try to scare him/her.

Same as rites in college brotherhoods or in the army, where just ‘chosen’ members have privilege to master initiation ceremony. As priests, chieftains or medicine men in ancient rituals.

Of course, times have changed and norms changed with them.

Hunt has been substituted for boy scout’s first night in the wood.
Mutilation for food or dirt smearing on the college or physical and mental abuse by superiors in the army.
Enemy’s head for precious object stolen from the rival brotherhood.

But, goal is still the same.
 
The goal maybe, but one imo crucial part is forgotten - education.
I.e., no information on how the life should be lived is passed.
 
argh, accidentally deleted a post while writing.

That's why I think these 'pop-rites' may be a regression.

A traditional initiation (not only in traditional societies) has three educational components (maybe there are others, but I don't remember atm):
1. cosmology
2. culture and history (mythhistory)
3. and for a lack of a better term "the way of life", philosophy

A second part of the rite is to place the individual in a particular place in the society according to the knowledge he now has - the secrets, the sacred ceremonies of power, hidden history, special skills, etc.

Depending on what the individual knows and is able to do he becomes a man, a woman, hunter, shaman, wise woman, etc.

And only one factor of the rite may be what the individual can prove to do - throw a spear, make a tool, etc.

These new 'pop-rites' may be a distant memory and a regression, because they only take one part out of a complex educational process. Ritual and rite primaly is the transfer of information to the new member of that particualar society.

What I would like to find out is whether these "pop-rites" formed independently from the traditional rites, or their origin is in the traditional rites.
Not that really important, but I'm curious.
 
I think Raven and Plazma are right .........
In many primitive cultures , there are still initiation rites ..... for instance in tribes in Liberia in Africa , there are initiation rites for children to become grown ups - they are mutilated , starved but also given education about their culture, religion , life and work - the girls are even taught how to make poison , which is their last resort to get rid of an abusive husband - the men know this - and know, that there are limits for what they can do to their wifes .......
The college rites are more for bonding and staying loyal to the other members - it is found in many secret (and not so secret) societies all over the world ..........even the masons have it ...... to become a mason you only need to believe in god ( in some lodges you also have to be recommended from another member) , but then for every step up in the hierachy there are initiation rites to bond you together with the group ....... and, yes they are bonded together in a "knighthood" of masons - prepared to help each other in the future ....with money and favours ......
 
Remember that experiment with monkeys where every newcomer gets beaten? I think all rituals are like that: most participants have no clue why the rituals are being held and why they're carried out in such particular manners.
 
Many rites of passage harken back to the Mesolithic Era. Remember that we've only been living in permanent settlements for about 12,000 years and our instincts can't possibly adapt that quickly. Before that we were nomadic hunter-gatherers and the skills and attitudes required to be a successful adult were not the same as they are today.

Being beaten up by a fellow gang member, and not running away from the encounter, is the closest these guys will come to the experience of fighting a bear and not giving up no matter how much it hurts, either to protect their clan from harm or to add some bear meat to its meager food supply.

I suggest you reacquaint yourselves with Joseph Campbell or one of Jung's other popularizers. Rites of passage are often remnants of "archetypes," rituals (or motifs, legends, etc.) that occur in all cultures and all eras. When the milieu for the rite disappears because of the spread of civilization, the instinct for it does not.

Depending on your point of view, an archetype is:
  • A behavior (or fear, attitude, etc.) that was once a survival trait and so was passed on in the preprogrammed psychology of those who survived.
  • A random assortment of neurons passed by chance through an evolutionary bottleneck such as Lucy's small family.
  • Something the goddess breathed into us on our way down the birth canal, so we could all wonder about it.
I suggest that some of the ones you're discussing clearly fall into the first category. For homework, try to figure out why baptism involves being submerged in water, or why priests slap children as part of the christening ceremony.
 
Submergance in water is to clean the person of the old self, return it to the primordial chaos and build from it a new being.

Haven't thought about slapping.
 
The Purpose of Ritual

The purpose of ritual is so that tradition may be passed on by people who do not understand it. This is not always a bad thing. The form of a tradition leads to transformation only through a long and difficult process. Not everyone has the devotion to complete such a task. Even those who do not completely understand the tradition can serve it if they have belief.

whitewolf said:
Remember that experiment with monkeys where every newcomer gets beaten? I think all rituals are like that: most participants have no clue why the rituals are being held and why they're carried out in such particular manners.
Click to expand...
 
*************
M*W: Ritual acts were best suited for the purpose of controlling the masses by having them perform repetitive actions. Repietition helped to ensure the addiction to the religion.

It still works today. Alcoholics are addicts. When they decide to quit, all they do is replace one addiction for another by becoming addicted to a 12-step program.
 
Medicine Woman has some really interesting thoughts. While I enjoy reading them, I must admit that there is another perspective that I believe is equally valid.

Ritual acts certainly have a purpose to which they are best suited. I believe that they have a calming effect on the mind, that is why people engage in them. By engaging in that which is familiar we keep our minds busy so that we do not have time to fall into fear and anxiety.

Medicine*Woman said:
*************
M*W: Ritual acts were best suited for the purpose of controlling the masses by having them perform repetitive actions. Repietition helped to ensure the addiction to the religion.

It still works today. Alcoholics are addicts. When they decide to quit, all they do is replace one addiction for another by becoming addicted to a 12-step program.
Click to expand...
 
Ritual is a technique to transfer information to the brain of the initiate without necessarily needing language. It is more potent than just the language and can transfer information which can not be presented through language.

The information which is transferred is on the responsibility on the priest, shaman, philosopher, politician or whatever.
 
Avatar said:
The information which is transferred is on the responsibility on the priest, shaman, philosopher, politician or whatever.
Click to expand...
I think I see where you are going with this, and I would describe the interaction of a shaman somewhat differently. I think that the shaman is one who has decided to look beyond the surface and to search for the actual reality of the moment, to find the truth of what's here and now.

This is different from ritual or tradition which teaches the same thing over and over. This is knowing what is right in each situation to create the desired awareness in the student. This is an art that can never really be perfected but each of us can know just the right thing to say sometimes.
 
Can't agree.
During a ritual the world (as it is understood by the performers) is reactualized, revitalized, made anew again. During a healing the patient is taken back to the origin times and with him also the community that watches. During an initiation the same thing happens. And also during funeral and others, where rites are performed.
And every action performed in them is just as it was perfomed the first time - it is perfomed the first time. Because during a ritual the timespace is changed to the mythological dream times and every time is the first time. That counts for every ritual of any religion or shamanic performance.

The difference between a shaman and a priest, imho, is in that a priest only passes on the message, but he hasn't received the message fromt he source (psyche) himself.
 
Yes to all of you, but I raised the point that the strongest rituals, being archetypes, are remnants of instinctive behaviors that once increased the chance of survival. The slap during a confirmation (sorry I named the wrong ritual) is similar to the gang initiation: Son, you're old enough now to need to be able to withstand pain without crying or running away.

"Submergance in water is to clean the person of the old self, return it to the primordial chaos and build from it a new being." -- That's the priest's explanation. What is the anthropologist's explanation? What meaningful, useful activity is this ritual a remnant of? The aquatic ape theory suggests that during the period when we (hypothetically) spent most of our waking hours in bodies of water, where the competition is less fierce and warm-blooded air-breathing animals always rule, at a certain age the young hominids--still with the instincts of their arboreal ancestors--had to be initiated into aquatic life so they could help in the food gathering and not require so much protection from land-based predators. This initiation to water was essential to the survival of the clan, since the AA theory says that the first hominids to stumble onto the savannah were ill-equipped to compete with the giant herbivores for plants or with the giant carnivores for meat, and that's why we're the only apes who swim well and still have those vestigial webs between our fingers.

Universal rituals are archetypes and archetypes have origins. Tracking them down is the Jungian's detective work.

To say they have a "calming effect on the mind" merely begs the question. Why do they have this effect? Because at some time in the past the original activity made us safer, healthier or more comfortable. What was that activity?
 
Aquatic ape theory imo is pure pseudoscience.

"The priest's explanation" to my mind is most fitting - it is to clean the mind and body from all acts committed in the realm of time. Water - a clean, pure state.
No need for monkey mermaids.
 
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