Right and Wrong?

[Cyperium]

Anon1: I believe the earth is round.
Anon2: I believe the earth is flat.

Who is right and who is wrong?

When Anon1 say the earth is round, he pictures himself being in space looking at the earth.

When Anon2 say the earth is flat, he looks at the earth as he has experianced it all his life.

The truth is that Anon1 and Anon2 are both true, cause they see it in different perspectives. Who knows, in the fourth dimension maybe the earth is flat again?

Anon1 can argue that in reality the earth is still round, as seen by sattelites ages ago, and calculated even more ages ago.

Anon2 can argue that we may not understand the nature of it all and that the earth may still be flat in a even higher perspective.

Anon3 can then step forward and say that nothing is really round or flat so you are both wrong.

Anon4 can then say to Anon3 that he's wrong, cause there are ideas of round and flat that the round and flat belongs to.

etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.

I suspect such a argument can go on forever, without any conclusion.

So the conclusion I want to give to you all is that no one is right or wrong. They are only right and wrong by their own perspective. This is even in the Bible.

Respect eachothers belief, cause whenever we believe something we have a reason to. Belief cannot doubt it's own belief, cause then it wouldn't be a belief - it would be a doubt.

If you don't believe then don't be a hypocrite saying you do. What you experiance may very well be a wish to belief. If that's the case, then pray to God that He let's you believe and take away your doubt.

The sum of what I wanted to say, is that we should respect eachothers belief, though it seems they are utterly wrong and illogical. Don't try to "convert" either to atheist or to theist. What you should do though, is to give your view of it. Then it's up to each person what to do.

 

[James R]

That's a very postmodernist argument, Cyperium. Unfortunately, I believe it is false.

It is easy to verify that the Earth is round. We have been into space and taken photos of it, which provides direct evidence. But there are also many ways you can prove the Earth is round just by doing experiments on Earth. Christopher Columbus knew the Earth is round. So did some of the ancient Greeks, among others.

Now, based on your everyday life, you might claim the Earth is flat. But that is misleading, because you haven't given the whole story. What you mean when you say the Earth is flat is that it LOOKS flat to you, from a particular point of view. Another way of saying it is that it is flat locally, but (this is the important point) not globally.

Thus, this particular argument ought to end fairly quickly, once people agree about what they are talking about. The entire Earth (as opposed to one small part of it) can only have one shape at a time, and right now it is round. There's no arguing that, except by denying observable fact, which is the refuge of a lunatic.

 

[Cyperium]

That's a very postmodernist argument, Cyperium. Unfortunately, I believe it is false.

It is easy to verify that the Earth is round. We have been into space and taken photos of it, which provides direct evidence. But there are also many ways you can prove the Earth is round just by doing experiments on Earth. Christopher Columbus knew the Earth is round. So did some of the ancient Greeks, among others.

Now, based on your everyday life, you might claim the Earth is flat. But that is misleading, because you haven't given the whole story. What you mean when you say the Earth is flat is that it LOOKS flat to you, from a particular point of view. Another way of saying it is that it is flat locally, but (this is the important point) not globally.

Thus, this particular argument ought to end fairly quickly, once people agree about what they are talking about. The entire Earth (as opposed to one small part of it) can only have one shape at a time, and right now it is round. There's no arguing that, except by denying observable fact, which is the refuge of a lunatic.

I do see your point. But what if we move to a higher dimension? Maybe there the earth could be considered flat?

And if we move close enough it's also...sometimes locally round.

But that's not the point of my discussion, the point is that people believe what they want to believe (though I don't think there are many people that currently believes the earth is flat), even if it seems irrational to you, they may actually have some kind of basis for their belief, or the belief makes them feel good, feel comfortable with the world. Maybe they need to get ready for the Truth before they can accept it? And maybe...just maybe...you are wrong?

I myself, believe that the earth is round (and locally flat), so this isn't a discussion of my view on the shape of the earth, this is more a discussion of the need to discuss at all.

Sure we need to discuss, but we should discuss about our view without trying to convince everyone else of it. If we have facts that makes our view believable then we can state our facts, but if someone refuses to believe the facts, or refuses to believe your interpretation of them, then it's up to them, there's nothing else you can do. If it's really true, then sooner or later they are going to find it, if they are looking. If they aren't looking, then that too is up to them.

 

[James R]

I have few arguments with what you've said, Cyperium.

 

[Joeman]

"Ignorance is the root of all sufferings" - Jesus (from one of the gnostic gospels. probably Thomas)

 

[§outh§tar]

That's a very postmodernist argument, Cyperium. Unfortunately, I believe it is false.

It is easy to verify that the Earth is round. We have been into space and taken photos of it, which provides direct evidence. But there are also many ways you can prove the Earth is round just by doing experiments on Earth. Christopher Columbus knew the Earth is round. So did some of the ancient Greeks, among others.

Now, based on your everyday life, you might claim the Earth is flat. But that is misleading, because you haven't given the whole story. What you mean when you say the Earth is flat is that it LOOKS flat to you, from a particular point of view. Another way of saying it is that it is flat locally, but (this is the important point) not globally.

Thus, this particular argument ought to end fairly quickly, once people agree about what they are talking about. The entire Earth (as opposed to one small part of it) can only have one shape at a time, and right now it is round. There's no arguing that, except by denying observable fact, which is the refuge of a lunatic.

I do agree that the argument is flawed. Although there are some things where opinions can differ, you must remember that there are some things which can't be interpreted otherwise unless the person is stubborn.

 

[antifreeze]

But what if we move to a higher dimension? Maybe there the earth could be considered flat?

if the person cannot provide a dimension in which this is possible, then they are just grasping at straws and the argument is over.

 

[the preacher]

I'm glad for you, with your beliefs Cyperium.
however the world can be proven, to be round.
but whether it can appear, to be flat to someone, even on a higher plain, is just pure fantasy.
and yes I know it's maybe what they believe, but it's still fantasy.

 

[Leo Volont]

Dear Cyperium,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone's viewpoint is somehow valid in some sort of subjective way and so we should all just shut up and mind our own business -- was that your point?

The idea behind these kind of forums is that there are higher and lower, better and worse opinions concerning Religion. For instance, some people offer only assertions and argue only that they are aesthetically pleasing -- which covers Pauline Christianity and Protestantism. Others offer apologies for True Religions of the Miraculous Saints -- Catholicism, Sufism and the Sanskrit Traditions.

There is Truth and there is Illusion. Yes, illusion has a subjective reality, but I believe it is a worthwhile distinction in pointing out whether Religions are solid or hollow.

 

[Cyperium]

if the person cannot provide a dimension in which this is possible, then they are just grasping at straws and the argument is over.

When I have argued with people, it's often because I felt frustrated that they wouldn't even consider the possibility. Cause it is the possibility that raises belief, you can know that the earth is round, but you can believe that the earth is flat in another dimension.

Belief is a great tool that shouldn't be overlooked. You can't allways hit "right on" so belief could be used as a guidance to take you to the correct spot instead of just guessing where it is, blindly throwing the dart.

I'm glad for you, with your beliefs Cyperium.
however the world can be proven, to be round.
but whether it can appear, to be flat to someone, even on a higher plain, is just pure fantasy.
and yes I know it's maybe what they believe, but it's still fantasy.

Fantasy is also subjective. Maybe some fantasies turns out to be true? Almost certainly some are going to be discovered as truth. Also alot of the discoveries made by man has been by coincidence.

It's my belief that everything can be used for something, so random things aren't really random, we just can't find the meaning of it. I heard a while back that "Random is God speaking in every language". I don't know if I should believe that, but it rings nice in my ears.

What I've experianced and know is true though is this; one may find the truth and place it in the wrong context, and it won't be true anymore, while another can find exactly the same truth and put it in the right context and he will see that it's true.

The Bible also talks about that, but in a different way, it says that when the fool uses a proverb it get's ruined cause he uses it at the wrong time, but when a wise man uses a proverb the people understand it. This is also seen in real-life where some people constantly fails at getting through what they want to say, while some people easily do the same thing but with success. So it's not only about finding the truth, it's also about knowing where to put it (where the truth "fits").

Dear Cyperium,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone's viewpoint is somehow valid in some sort of subjective way and so we should all just shut up and mind our own business -- was that your point?

The idea behind these kind of forums is that there are higher and lower, better and worse opinions concerning Religion. For instance, some people offer only assertions and argue only that they are aesthetically pleasing -- which covers Pauline Christianity and Protestantism. Others offer apologies for True Religions of the Miraculous Saints -- Catholicism, Sufism and the Sanskrit Traditions.

There is Truth and there is Illusion. Yes, illusion has a subjective reality, but I believe it is a worthwhile distinction in pointing out whether Religions are solid or hollow.

We shouldn't just shut up and mind our own business, that wasn't what I said. I said that we should respect eachothers belief and not try to convert eachother all the time. I respect you if you want to discuss what you believe in. Just don't try to ruin my belief. I actually think it's morally wrong to do so. Everyone should have the right to believe whatever they believe in, if I change then you could choose to change taking me as a example, but I can never directly change anyone. Neither can you. Mocking eachothers belief only creates sadness, the only way people can be enlightened is if they choose to see it from your perspective, that takes trust, I wouldn't trust someone that constantly tries to destroy my belief-system.

When you have posted your alternative belief, then it's up to whoever that reads it to follow it, it's not up to you to make us follow it. Jesus didn't force anyone, neither do God. It's our free will to choose what to believe in (as it says in the Bible, "if the people refuses to believe you, then brush away the sand from your shoes and walk away") - not word by word, but the meaning is the same. Arguing all the time causes division and leads away from the truth if it's done in a bad way (I mean a bad way, that only cares to be right, not find the truth). Trying to "fool" someone to believe them isn't right, is unjust and spitting truth in the face.