Republicans In crisis and a Nation and a Democracy on the Sacrificial Alter

Will Republicans Cause a Debt Default?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 6 60.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-03/bipartisan-house-group-offers-compromise-to-end-shutdown-impasse.html said:
A bipartisan group of about 40 House lawmakers is holding private talks to find a compromise to end the shutdown, said Representative Reid Ribble, a Wisconsin Republican.

The number of Republicans, including Representatives Dent and Peter King of New York, pressing Boehner to call a vote on a Senate-passed spending bill free of Obamacare-related measures had grown to 20 by today, enough to pass a clean bill if all Democrats joined in. Five of them met with Boehner before he and other congressional leaders met with Obama at the White House.
That may fly without Senate or Obama shooting down as only rider, does not reduce Obama care - only how it is partially paid for - i.e. has elimination of the new tax on medical devices.
 
I think the problem is deeper than just knowledge. Congressmen have access to lots of information. Some of them are smart enough to know better but they don’t seem to be fazed or constrained by little things like truth and honesty. Republicans just don’t believe in science.




We do need a better way of electing our representatives. We need to take the special interest money out of our elections. We need publicly financed elections and we need a code of ethics for our elected officials and regulators, a code of ethics that prevents our officials from profiting from those they regulate (e.g. Billy Tauzin). And finally we need a better informed electorate, which means reinstating The Fairness Doctrine so that individuals and corporations cannot spew crap (i.e. lies) without getting a challenge, without someone else given the opportunity to expose those lies. And I think the fear of being exposed is one of the main reasons Republicans/Tea Partiers and the Republican entertainment complex is fighting so hard to prevent Obamacare from being fully enacted.

As for colleges and universities, unfortunately, we now have people like the Koch brothers buying up academia. The Koch brothers are using their money to allow them to make hiring and termination decisions at some universities in order to corrupt academic institutions and spread their ideology and further their political power base at the price of honest academic pursuits and credibility. Our colleges are being corrupted.

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/koch-brothers-now-under-fire-corrupting

Make no bones about it, America is under assault. But the attackers are not from without. They are from within. It is being played out every day on our airwaves, cable networks, and internet and in the halls of our government and now in the halls of academia as well.

I think attempts to circumvent the law of the land and shutting down our constitutional government is a terrorist act. Electing folks who don't have a code of ethics, in practice, is beyond stupid unless you want to see the government of the US destroyed. You don't need much education to figure this out. Should be clear to the intellectually honest citizens regardless how much education they have. They've been subverting education in the US since Reagan. Seems like the Prez might get to calling it what it really is before much longer. We have laws against perpetrating terrorist acts in the US. Arrest the ring leaders and charge them with attempting to perpetrate a terrorist act. It would be funny to watch them trying to cover 'the collective ass' in a court of law. Take a real big chunk out of 'the collective ass'.
 
I think attempts to circumvent the law of the land and shutting down our constitutional government is a terrorist act. Electing folks who don't have a code of ethics, in practice, is beyond stupid unless you want to see the government of the US destroyed. You don't need much education to figure this out. Should be clear to the intellectually honest citizens regardless how much education they have. They've been subverting education in the US since Reagan. Seems like the Prez might get to calling it what it really is before much longer. We have laws against perpetrating terrorist acts in the US. Arrest the ring leaders and charge them with attempting to perpetrate a terrorist act. It would be funny to watch them trying to cover 'the collective ass' in a court of law. Take a real big chunk out of 'the collective ass'.

I would not call it outright "terrorism", but it is sabotaging the workings of the government. I prefer to call it "sedition".

Sedition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order.
 
As for colleges and universities, unfortunately, we now have people like the Koch brothers buying up academia. The Koch brothers are using their money to allow them to make hiring and termination decisions at some universities in order to corrupt academic institutions and spread their ideology and further their political power base at the price of honest academic pursuits and credibility. Our colleges are being corrupted.

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/koch-brothers-now-under-fire-corrupting

Here is the contract between the Kochs and FSU from 2008, worth $6M.

It creates an "Excellence in Economic Education" program, including creation of several new positions, and FSU agrees to hire and maintain a staff, who support the political and economic theory stated in the agreement, which includes the phrase "free voluntary processes and principles that promote social progress". It goes on to create a board picked by the Kochs who monitor compliance with this. Evidently, free processes is English for laissez-faire. Further, the Kochs' board gets to approve the new hires.

It raises a good question about the legality of any such agreement. FSU executives are employees of the State, and subject to liability for tort when acting in their individual capacity. I think that's prima facie here since I doubt their State law provides for them to enter into any agreement that permits outside influence over matters of curriculum and instruction or hiring. I suppose it would be difficult for a potential plaintiff to show standing, since it would require a claim of injury. That might be possible in the case of an applicant to a professorship who was rejected on the grounds of teaching against deregulation, but that would seem impossible to prove on any of several levels. The other case might be a student who could possibly claim harm from being instructed in the benefits of laissez-faire, but the alleged harm ends when the course is over, which would be before the complaint even reached the court for preliminary review. I suspect the Kochs' lawyers worked through this and realized that it was bullet-proof. Besides, with some $10B in annual profits to play with, the they could easily settle any such nuisance -- with the usual non-disclosure agreement to keep it out of the media -- for, say, a mere $100K or so?

In a way I'm surprised they picked FSU at all. Once source ranks them #91 in the US which isn't bad. But then their economics dept. scores at around #60 in the US, which could be interpreted as about as good as you can expect from a state school (1 out of 50). And then this is Florida, bastion of Jeb Bush and the hanging chad legacy, and (excluding, say, Miami) one of the snakepits of Southern fundamentalism.

Maybe it was a test, in anticipation of bigger fish. One of those is George Mason University, which got $16M. This is interesting for its extension campus in the Middle East. I think GMU is strong in climate science, which may be the actual target the Kochs had in mind. It's also a more likely training ground for future politicians.

I notice the Kochs are also funding non-profits, which blurs the question of how a non-profit can legally exist while under control or influence of a profit maker. This is yet another tentacle poking through the loopholes which ought to be severed by operation of law. Either that or it's time for a change, some new legislation that would outlaw these practices and weaken the power of special interests that have managed to wrap the Supreme Court around their little fingers.

Make no bones about it, America is under assault. But the attackers are not from without. They are from within. It is being played out every day on our airwaves, cable networks, and internet and in the halls of our government and now in the halls of academia as well.

As you say, we are under assault. We are certainly living in an era that should be known as Cold War II: the civil war version. In this context the term "culture wars" is practically misleading.

The only hope for the distant future is that the Republican Congress commits political suicide with their mean stupid games like the one they are playing with the shutdown, and the Dems are in place to replace the next conservative Justice or two who leave the Supreme Court. Who knows how long that may take. But until then, this war of attrition is going to continue to starve public policy to death.
 
Personally when surrounded by so much information re-affirming what I think (that being the the republicans or a specifically group of them need to be put up against the wall and shoot before they destroy the country!) I begin to question if I too am not trapped in an internet information bubble aka echo chamber. I begin to search for evidence that perhaps the other-side is right or something, so far lacking to find anything meaningful. Please conservative forum members speak up, provide links to evidence that this is the democrats doing, at least in way partially their fault part!
 
Personally when surrounded by so much information re-affirming what I think (that being the the republicans or a specifically group of them need to be put up against the wall and shoot before they destroy the country!) I begin to question if I too am not trapped in an internet information bubble aka echo chamber. I begin to search for evidence that perhaps the other-side is right or something, so far lacking to find anything meaningful. Please conservative forum members speak up, provide links to evidence that this is the democrats doing, at least in way partially their fault part!

I doubt that will happen. this happened because of the rights fear of the affodable care act. its success would be devestating for them. and not for their propaganda about how they care about civil liberties and rights.
 
Personally when surrounded by so much information re-affirming what I think (that being the the republicans or a specifically group of them need to be put up against the wall and shoot before they destroy the country!) I begin to question if I too am not trapped in an internet information bubble aka echo chamber. I begin to search for evidence that perhaps the other-side is right or something, so far lacking to find anything meaningful. Please conservative forum members speak up, provide links to evidence that this is the democrats doing, at least in way partially their fault part!

I suggest listening to conservative talk radio or watching Fox News. I do. But when I listen or watch for 15 minutes without a single truthful statement being made as is often the case, I lose interest. When they can spice it up with a little deceit, it becomes interesting. Every once is a while they come up with new information...but it is almost always untrue or at least incomplete and deceitful.
 
I suggest listening to conservative talk radio or watching Fox News. I do. But when I listen or watch for 15 minutes without a single truthful statement being made as is often the case, I lose interest. When they can spice it up with a little deceit, it becomes interesting. Every once is a while they come up with new information...but it is almost always untrue or at least incomplete and deceitful.

Well its not like everything said on the left is truthful, just saying, we got to avoid falling into the same trap they have.
 
I suggest listening to conservative talk radio or watching Fox News. I do. But when I listen or watch for 15 minutes without a single truthful statement being made as is often the case, I lose interest. When they can spice it up with a little deceit, it becomes interesting. Every once is a while they come up with new information...but it is almost always untrue or at least incomplete and deceitful.


That is a description of every politician in the world.
 
I'm Going Out of My Way to Deliberately Be Not Funny

One, Two, Teddy's Coming for You ....

Which of these things is not like the other? No, really, does anyone remember that game, cartoon panel, children's song, whatever it was?

ElectricFetus said:

Well its not like everything said on the left is truthful, just saying, we got to avoid falling into the same trap they have.

Well, right. But I liken it to sales.

You're looking at this car, here. Maybe I'll tell you about the fuel-efficient engine. Maybe the great ergonomics. The entertainment package. Perhaps I won't mention the fact that it got a really low braking score from one or another testing lab, and if you ask I'll downplay it.

We all recognize that, right?

What I don't get, though, is that if you instead go out of your way in your sales pitch to falsely accuse the better-selling competitor's car of getting a low braking score from one or another testing lab, well—

Captain Kremmen said:

That is a description of every politician in the world.

—how is that not different?

I mean, we get it. But a Black Cat flashlight firecracker is not a stick of dynamite is not a block of C4 is not a Massive Ordinance Air Blast. They all explode when successfully deployed, but that's pretty much the end of their sameness.

There's a difference between a sales job and outright fraud.

So says me, but that's worth its weight in ... um ... does electricity weigh anything? Never mind. A half-witted witticism run aground.
 
The Future Looks ... Slick?

Oh, Sh―

Short term, long term, take a turn, have a whack ... whatever.

Matt Fuller, for Roll Call:

The GOP's moderate revolt is sounding more like a moderate whimper.

Rep. Jon Runyan, a New Jersey Republican who has publicly said he would vote for a “clean” continuing resolution, has been part of the moderate meetings that Rep. Peter T. King of New York has been hosting in an effort to end the shutdown as soon as possible.

And Runyan, better known for his 13-year career as an imposing NFL lineman than for his congressional prowess, gave CQ Roll Call a candid look into the mindset of the moderate revolt.

The quick summary: Don't count on them to sign that Democratic discharge petition.

Runyan said the discharge petition wouldn't work because it would take too long; it wouldn't ripen, he said, until after Oct. 17 — the debt ceiling deadline.

“It's going to get real shitty on the 17th,” Runyan said, adding that Republicans have to find a solution on that issue.

The short-term story, of course, is that the discharge petition isn't going to fly. And the point about the time frame is one this faction is pushing:

“You can’t force the speaker to bring a clean CR, that’s No. 1,” Grimm said. “You know people are talking about a discharge; do you know how long that would take to happen? So that’s not an option. And a clean CR I don’t think would pass the floor anyway. At this point, I think that ship has sailed, because I don’t think you have enough Democrat votes to cover those you would lose on the Republican side.”

The idea, of course, is that the president and speaker can arrange some sort of grand bargain and then everyone will steamroll the Tea Party?

I think?

But the long-term story is all of thirteen days away: "It's going to get real shitty on the seventeenth."

Nobody can say we weren't warned. I mean, I know, they keep threatening and everyone else thinks it's unimaginable, but that's an important hint.

"It's going to get real shitty on the seventeenth."

Alright? We all clear on that? That is the forecast from Rep. Runyan (R-NJ03).
____________________

Notes:

Fuller, Matt. "GOP Moderates Wary of Crossing Boehner". 218. October 4, 2013. Blogs.RollCall.com. October 4, 2013. http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/gop-moderates-unlikely-to-cross-boehner/
 
This belongs in the good / bad news thread but is on topic here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-04/tea-party-s-ross-says-debt-worth-yielding-on-obamacare.html said:
U.S. Representative Dennis Ross, a Florida Republican, said he would support a broad spending deal that didn’t include changes to the health-care law,
becoming the first Tea Party-backed House lawmaker to publicly back off the fight that is shut down the government for four days. Ross, ranked among the House’s most conservative members by both the Club for Growth and the American Conservative Union, said he shifted his position because the shutdown hasn’t resulted in changes to the Affordable Care Act, which started Oct. 1, the same day government funding ran out. The shutdown also could hurt the party, he said.

"We’ve lost the CR battle,” Ross, referring to the continuing resolution to authorize government spending, said in an interview.
“We need to move on and take whatever we can find in the debt limit.

Good thinking, Ross - why settle for a recession when you can make a depression?
 
Well, right. But I liken it to sales.

You're looking at this car, here. Maybe I'll tell you about the fuel-efficient engine. Maybe the great ergonomics. The entertainment package. Perhaps I won't mention the fact that it got a really low braking score from one or another testing lab, and if you ask I'll downplay it.

We all recognize that, right?

What I don't get, though, is that if you instead go out of your way in your sales pitch to falsely accuse the better-selling competitor's car of getting a low braking score from one or another testing lab, well—


—how is that not different?


No no your grossly understating it, the republicans right now are like the sale man saying "THAT CAR IS EVIL! It was driving by the devil and is power on the blood of dead babies, NOW this car though is an all American car, made out of all that is wholesome and wonderful about are perfect land, that is all parts of our great land not infected by the likes of that other, EVIL car!"

I mean, how is it that ANYONE can believe these people? A'm I missing something? Are their brain slugs I need to inhabit my skull in order for this to make sense to me??? It just can't be this bad, can it?

And while you're at it, could you please check out a black spot on Jupiter... I mean heard something about a pipeline or something that Obama could agree to and perhaps the republicans could call a victory over that (and not actually do anything to Obamacare) and we can all move on with living?
 
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/analysis-us-reliability-questioned-overseas-040631757--finance.html said:
"Congress is holding the whole place to ransom, doesn't really jibe with the notion of the United States as a global leader," said Michael McKinley, an expert on global relations at the Australian National University.

The political turbulence in Washington and potential economic bombshells yet to come from the U.S. government shutdown and a possible debt default this month have sent shivers through Europe. The head of the European Central Bank, Mario Draghi, worried about the continent's rebound from the 2008 economic downturn.

"We view this recovery as weak, as fragile, as uneven," Draghi said at a news conference.

Germany's influential newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung bemoaned the U.S. political chaos: "At the moment, Washington is fighting over the budget and nobody knows if the country will still be solvent in three weeks. What is clear, though, is that America is already politically bankrupt," it said.
If we make it thru without default, remember still: Money falling from heaven is also a path to Hell. (Note 85 billion / month is ~$8.50 per day for every man woman and child in US.)
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/19/the-politics-of-the-14th-amendment-and-the-debt-limit/?_r=0 said:
In 2011, a number of respected legal scholars asserted that a little-known provision of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution essentially invalidated the debt limit. That provision states:

Sec. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
 
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Now, Yoho is ready for a bigger fight. He doesn’t want to raise the debt ceiling — ever again. The experts, and Republican leaders, say that would trigger a financial catastrophe.

But Yoho didn’t listen to them about the shutdown. And look how that turned out.

“I think we need to have that moment where we realize [we’re] going broke,” Yoho said. If the debt ceiling isn’t raised, that will sure as heck be a moment. “I think, personally, it would bring stability to the world markets,” since they would be assured that the United States had moved decisively to curb its debt.


PURE INSANITY! The last part just made me laugh a cry at the same time, imagine if someone that owed you a lot of money came up to you at payment time and said "Yeah I need to curb my debt soo I'm not going to pay you" would you respect said person... or break his legs? There a good chance if the USA defaults that the world will decide to drop the dollar and go with something else more stable like the Yuan, the US economy would be doomed and likely never recover.

Anyways republicans say they want to negotiate, but what exactly do they want?
 
Anyways republicans say they want to negotiate, but what exactly do they want?

The same as ever. Social conservatism, subjugation of science, and Little Government (aka deregulation) and esp. the repeal of the ACA.

It looks the agencies they targeted for shutdown reflect this -- for the most part.

And of course they want their constituents raging like bulls.
 
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