Republicans In crisis and a Nation and a Democracy on the Sacrificial Alter

[joepistole]

While Republicans are busy blaming Obama for closing down the government, the truth has surfaced. It turns out Republicans; the Koch brothers have been planning this shut down since Obama’s inauguration, who knew? It sounds like a remake of the Republican conspiracy of Obama’s first term.

“WASHINGTON — Shortly after President Obama started his second term, a loose-knit coalition of conservative activists led by former Attorney General Edwin Meese III gathered in the capital to plot strategy. Their push to repeal Mr. Obama’s health care law was going nowhere, and they desperately needed a new plan.

DRIVING FORCES David Koch of Americans for Prosperity, Michael A. Needham of Heritage Action and former Attorney General Edwin Meese III played roles in the health law fight.

Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.

It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government.

“We felt very strongly at the start of this year that the House needed to use the power of the purse,” said one coalition member, Michael A. Needham, who runs Heritage Action for America, the political arm of the Heritage Foundation. “At least at Heritage Action, we felt very strongly from the start that this was a fight that we were going to pick.”

Last week the country witnessed the fallout from that strategy: a standoff that has shuttered much of the federal bureaucracy and unsettled the nation.” – New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?_r=0

 

[Carcano]

They face the Raucous Caucus (AKA Tea Party Caucus) which is a creation of the Republican entertainment complex. The Raucous Caucus is demanding what they cannot get through normal legislative channels an end to Obamacare. Instead of democratic rule, the Raucous Caucus wants minority rule but only when they are the minority as is currently the case.

A vote in congress is a 'normal legislative channel'.

The 49 members of the tea party are not the only votes against the debt spiral.

 

[ElectricFetus]

A vote in congress is a 'normal legislative channel'.

The 49 members of the tea party are not the only votes against the debt spiral.

Oh are you one of those that thinks shutting down the goverment and defaulting on our debt is the solution?

 

[Tiassa]

Hostages? Computer sales? What's the effin' difference?

Oh are you one of those that thinks shutting down the goverment and defaulting on our debt is the solution?

Oh, come now, I think you know better than that. Our neighbor is trying to make the case that there is nothing unusual about what the Republicans are doing. However, you'll notice that, presently, the one thing we don't have from our conservative neighbors is an answer to the question of whether Republicans are prepared to win.

And there's a reason they don't want to answer that.

And we have to remember, as well, this whole thing is a victory for Republicans, anyway. This is what they want. The government is shut down; funding, if it is ever restored, will be at sequester levels. We tend to use aphorisms like, "A little knowledge can be dangerous", and while it's a different concept, so can "a little government". With the U.S. government hamstrung, everything looks even more screwed up than usual.

You'll notice the latest random idea from Republicans is that the debt ceiling doesn't matter, although part of that argument involves not paying down principal. So much for fiscal responsibility.

In the end, a vote in Congress is a normal legislative channel, just like negotiation of terms is a normal channel of business.

However, this isn't normal business. This is hostage taking, not negotiating for the best price on new office equipment. This is a group of people who lost at the ballot box, and lost in the courts, trying to screw everyone unless they get their way.

And that's the thing I notice most of all. Republicans know they've screwed up, otherwise they would be able to put up better arguments. Some of our neighbors sound so much like they're just reading from the Party script that they actually can't be, insofar as they're doing so very badly, with no charisma, and no sense of dimension that makes any of it believable.

So the hint for my conservative neighbors would be to remind them that when even they don't sound like they believe what they're saying, they won't be convincing the rest of us.

 

[billvon]

A vote in congress is a 'normal legislative channel'.

No, the "normal legislative channel" would be to vote in the House and the Senate to repeal Obamacare, followed by a signing by the President. If he vetoed it they could then override the veto. That's how the US Constitution works.

An alternative, non-Constitutional way to do it is to refuse to do your job, and threaten to destroy the American economy unless you get your way.

The 49 members of the tea party are not the only votes against the debt spiral.

Wrong issue. That's next week.

 

[Tiassa]

The Obvious Question

What the Hell is Wrong With Republicans?

Okay, look, if the Republicans aren't just dicking everone around now, go ahead and give me an explanation:

House Republicans will bring to the floor a bill to create a bipartisan, bicameral committee to address the current fiscal impasse that has shut down much of the government and threatens a debt default.

A GOP leadership aide said the committee wouldn’t just handle the continuing resolution needed to fund the government. It would have broader jurisdiction similar to the 2011 Joint Committee on Deficit Reduction, also known as the supercommittee, and would cover the debt limit and other fiscal issues.

A GOP appropriations aide also described the working group as similar to the supercommittee, but on a smaller scale, and without instructions.

The aide said there is currently no timetable for the committee to act.

(Dumain and Fuller)​

Oh, good. Another supercommittee.

Meanwhile, House Republicans are still trying their piecemeal divide-and-conquer strategy: "Oh, Democrats, won't you please help us restore funding, but only to the parts of government that we want, in order to improve our optics?"

Seriously, Republicans seem incapable of comprehending what they're done and are doing:

A federal judge was less than amused when Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) requested that a lawsuit he filed two years ago be allowed to move forward in spite of the fact that federal courts have been immobilized by the Republican shutdown of the U.S. government. According to Think Progress, Judge Amy Berman Jackson refused to consider violating the shutdown to handle the case, saying that it’s ridiculous for Issa to make the request, considering his caucus’ role in ordering the government to close.

Issa filed a motion as part of his House Oversight and Government Reform Committee’s failed investigation into supposed misdeeds by the Department of Justice in the “Fast and Furious” operation. Issa is still attempting to order Attorney General Eric Holder to hand over confidential documents or risk being held in contempt of court.

The motion insisted that a “Contingency Plan provides that Department employees may continue to work on matters necessary to the discharge of the President’s constitutional duties and powers,” and therefore his actions against President Barack Obama and the Justice Department should not be affected by the federal work stoppage.

Judge Jackson responded, “There are no exigent circumstances in this case that would justify an order of the Court forcing furloughed attorneys to return to their desks. Moreover, while the vast majority of litigants who now must endure a delay in the progress of their matters do so due to circumstances beyond their control, that cannot be said of the House of Representatives, which has played a role in the shutdown that prompted the stay motion.”

(Ferguson)​

No, seriously. What the hell is wrong with these people?
____________________

Notes:

Dumain, Emma and Matt Fuller. "GOP Proposes New Supercommittee to Resolve Impasse". 218. October 8, 2013. Blogs.RollCall.com. October 8, 2013. http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/gop-proposes-bipartisan-committee-to-resolve-impasse/

Ferguson, David. "Federal judge slaps down Darrell Issa over request for shutdown exception". The Raw Story. October 5, 2013. RawStory.com. October 8, 2013. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/...ell-issa-over-request-for-shutdown-exception/

 

[joepistole]

A vote in congress is a 'normal legislative channel'.

That is not what Republicans are doing. A vote in congress has already been had on the laws Republicans are trying to reverse and defund. Just because Republicans did not win that vote, it doesn’t mean they should try to rehash that law over and over again. Republicans in the House have already voted 42 times to reverse the law each time without success. So what they could not get through normal legislative process they are now trying to get by holding the nation hostage to their demands.

Holding the nation hostage to the demands of a minority is not a normal legislative channel, nor is it democratic. It is certainly counter to the principals laid out in the Constitution. The full faith and credit of the nation should not and must not be subject to extortion. Our democracy is at stake and that is why it is so important Obama and Democrats stand their ground. This is much bigger than Obamacare. This is a matter of protecting our democracy.

The 49 members of the tea party are not the only votes against the debt spiral.

Well that is a distortion. Tea Party members are through their ignorance, arrogance, and quest for power actually voting to exacerbate the so called “debt spiral”. Voting to repeal Obamacare adds over a trillion dollars to the national deficit per the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. Virtually anything the Tea Partiers are for cannot be reasonably construed as fiscally responsible. Repealing Obamacare adds trillions to the deficit and debt. Shutting down the government adds hundreds of billions to the debt and deficit. Pushing the nation into default adds trillions to the deficit and debt. So for all the Tea Party and Republican demagoguery, there is not a single policy or position they have taken which can be reasonably construed to be fiscally responsible.

Under a Democratic president and Democratic congress the nation's deficit has fallen by half and is falling faster now than at anytime since WWII. When Republicans and Tea Partiers controlled our government they more than double the debt, ruined the economy and created the first ever trillion dollar deficit. So it is a bit of a joke to see Tea Partiers and Republicans represent themselves as fiscally responsible. Because the facts expose them to be the spendthrifts they really are.

 

[joepistole]

Nine Days to Default Date, I am starting to think we will default this time around. Perhaps it is need to teach Republicans and Tea Partiers a lesson. Republicans and Tea Partiers keep telling us a debt default is no big deal, I guess they will find out. However, most business leaders still think Republicans are not that dumb...guess what, they are. Hopefully once these clowns bring on a debt default, they learn a lesson. But unfortunately, thus far they seem pretty impervious to learning and knowledge.

 

[Billy T]

Seven Days to Default Date, I am starting to think we will default this time around. Perhaps it is need to teach Republicans and Tea Partiers a lesson. Republicans and Tea Partiers keep telling us a debt default is no big deal, I guess they will find out. However, most business leaders still think Republicans are not that dumb...guess what, they are. Hopefully once these clowns bring on a debt default, they learn a lesson. But unfortunately, thus far they seem pretty impervious to learning and knowledge.

IMHO, you view this in too narrow, too political terms. The lesson, Democrats, Republicans and independents can learn is that living on borrow money as you are not earning your consumption by your production, for decades, does not end well.

If somehow we get thru this "learning opportunity" in a few years China will give us another, with this blunt message:

Go to Hell. We don't need to sell to you and won't lend more to you. Our factories are hard pressed to supply domestic demand and customers with cash.

More discussion and three explaining / supporting links given here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...ficial-Alter&p=3117983&viewfull=1#post3117983

 

[Tiassa]

The Problem There Is That You're Talking About Republicans

Seven Days to Default Date, I am starting to think we will default this time around. Perhaps it is need to teach Republicans and Tea Partiers a lesson. Republicans and Tea Partiers keep telling us a debt default is no big deal, I guess they will find out.

The cost-benefit ratio just doesn't support your hope, though.

The number of people hurt? Even if you could promise me that conservatives would learn their lesson on this point, it's still not an encouraging risk analysis. And, come on, we all know that the nearest thing to a promise anyone could give is that the disaster would only empower Republicans, since everything they do wrong is everyone else's fault, anyway.

And, remember, this isn't "Republicans", anyway; it's the Tea Party they annexed and packed with tinfoils, racists, and other, assorted paranoiacs.

The problem for the GOP is that they cannot cut this bloc loose.

I mean, think of it this way: If the Party leadership smacks down Ted Cruz too severely for this clusterfuck, he can always turn to his supporters and rail against the establishment conspiring against him. And the GOP itself? They cannot survive a full-blown, two-front campaign war. Not right now. They would lose too many people to the Tea Party faction, or so I would estimate.

It's like the anecdotes about people in Kentucky and other states; the guy standing there at the fairgrounds, listening to a volunteer in a booth explain the state's health care exchange—after a few minutes he nods and says, "This sure beats Obamacare." Now, come on, that's just a little too convenient and distilled, right? But it's also effective because we see this kind of ignorance among conservatives. There are still right-wingers who think we found WMD in Iraq, who still think Hussein was behind 9/11, who still think Obama is from Kenya—some of whom get elected to Congress to help lead shutdown and default fights—&c., ad nauseam. What about conservatives suggests that they respond affirmatively to evidence? The more predictable route is that they will blame their own behavior on other people.

I would very much prefer they could break this cycle of ignorance and hatred, but there are too many people for one shock, no matter how big, to readjust. Boehner? He might know how badly he's screwed up, but in the end he will never come out and say, "Well, that didn't go as we expected, so, er ... um ... yeah." No, he'll blame Ted Cruz and his own House caucus repeatedly stabbing him in the back on Democrats. Ever faithful, indeed.

But we're Americans, first and foremost. We can only hope our Republican neighbors figure out that priority for themselves, and sooner rather than later.

 

[Billy T]

... But it's also effective because we see this kind of ignorance among conservatives. There are still right-wingers who think we found WMD in Iraq, who still think Hussein was behind 9/11, who still think Obama is from Kenya—some of whom get elected to Congress to help lead shutdown and default fights—&c., ad nauseam. What about conservatives suggests that they respond affirmatively to evidence? ...

That sounds like you could be persuaded that local funding of schools (So poor neighborhoods have terrible ones)* is bad idea. Federal financing and standards is the primary reason democracy works well in Scandinavia. That plus this simple, no-cost change is needed:

There when your students enter school and finish the first grade, both they and the same teacher move up together for the next grade. This simple difference from US schools has an enormous benefit. First if third grade Johnny can't read or do simple math every body knows who has failed Johnny. There is no passing a problem child on to the next grade teacher as you are the next grade teacher too.

Secondly, at the start of every grade after the first the teacher on day one, knows her students well. She knows, for example John is two grades ahead in math but having trouble with his foreign language (All will be fluent in three, two not Norwegian, languages by eight grade). But Jane, who already has mastered three by fourth grade is a half a grade behind in math. So teacher can on day one of some grade have them helping each other in the back of the class room during say knitting class (even the boys take that). I.e. Educating the class is a mutual group project and responsibility - all learn at an earlier age to help each other - take responsibility for the welfare of others. Later in life, they still think it completely proper, correct and DESIRABLE to pay ~50% of their income in taxes so ALL have good education and health opportunities.

* Many poorly educated (and not well off, usually) fall victim to TV ads and end up voting against their own self interests, as they can not think critically.

 

[Tiassa]

Play Ball! (Comic Relief)

The American Metaphor

A Georgia constituent wrote his congressman in the wake of the Atlanta Braves losing their National League Division Series playoff against the Los Angeles Dodgers.

October 8, 2013​

Rep. Jack Kingston
2372 Rayburn House Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Congressman Kingston:

Thank you for your courageous stand against Obamacare and in support of the government shutdown. Your bold act of statesmanship has given me an idea that I hope you'll agree to help with.

Like you, I'm sure, I am profoundly disappointed that the Atlanta Braves lost the NLDS last night. And to the Dodgers—a bunch of California liberals!

This outrage cannot be allowed to stand. But the system has failed us. We tried to resolve this issue through traditional means: In last night's game alone, we must have sent batters to the plate at least 40 times. But just because we didn't score enough runs, the Dodgers refuse to relinquish the title—and worse, they won't even discuss it.

LA's stubborn refusal to even talk to us about reversing the results of this series is un-sportsmanlike and un-American. But there is an answer: If the Dodgers won't listen to the cries of average Americans like you and me, then Congress should outlaw Major League Baseball until the Dodgers cave.

I understand this solution may sound unconventional, but we can no longer afford to play baseball as usual. This issue is too important. Americans—by which I mean Braves fans like me—overwhelmingly oppose a Dodgers win. Allowing them to impose their left-coast values on our post-season play is ruining America. And my fantasy team.

I know that some in the greater fan community and in the sportscasting elite may say that shutting down all of baseball is too drastic a step. That if this kind of hostage-taking is allowed to succeed, baseball as we know it will cease to function—that next time it will be the Dodgers demanding the pennant. That before long we'll see the Mets shutting down the league unless they get a Super Bowl ring, or the Diamondbacks halting play unless they win the Stanley Cup. But you and I know that's just a bunch of California double-speak.

Just because the Dodgers had more hits, scored more runs, and won more games doesn't make them right. You can help them see that. And if that means the country will be deprived of its national pastime—well, the Dodgers will only have themselves to blame.

Help us avoid the Dodgers' cynical shutdown of Major League Baseball. Bring the National League pennant home ot Atlanta today.

Go Braves!

Sincerely,....

[signature]...

Paul J. Kaplan​

​

And, you know ... why not?

(Oh, and who wants to be the first pedant to miss the point?)
____________________

Notes:

Calcaterra, Craig. "Applying government shutdown logic to the baseball playoffs". Hardball Talk. October 8, 2013. HardballTalk.NBCSports.com. October 8, 2013. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2...ment-shutdown-logic-to-the-baseball-playoffs/

 

[Carcano]

Oh are you one of those that thinks shutting down the goverment and defaulting on our debt is the solution?

A default will simply hasten the arrival of what should have already happened...a global loss of confidence in the ability of the US to cut spending or grow its way into a surplus.

 

[billvon]

Oh are you one of those that thinks shutting down the goverment and defaulting on our debt is the solution?

A default will simply hasten the arrival of what should have already happened...a global loss of confidence in the ability of the US to cut spending or grow its way into a surplus.

So you do think a default on our debt is desirable. If people in Congress share your opinion - that could explain a few things about their recent activities.

 

[Tiassa]

The Big If

So you do think a default on our debt is desirable. If people in Congress share your opinion - that could explain a few things about their recent activities.

What do you think the chances of that if actually are?

That is to say, given the recent advocacy of default by several prominent Republicans, and considering how that list of Republicans you offered kudos in exchange for their "words, not deeds" is scrambling to withdraw their support, and in some cases even lie and claim they never gave it, to a clean CR, the only reason I'm not outright laughing my ass off at your use of the word "if" is that it is, in fact, so hard to concede that my Republican neighbors have truly turned their backs on the nation.

There was a time when it was really quite easy to look across the aisle and have no doubt whatsoever that one's partisan opponents still had the best interests of "America" at heart.

That time is gone, and it's not a both-parties sort of thing. The GOP has left the building on this one, and all on their own.

 

[joepistole]

A default will simply hasten the arrival of what should have already happened...a global loss of confidence in the ability of the US to cut spending or grow its way into a surplus.

And where is the logical basis for that claim? Oh that is right, you don't have one. It's pretty obvious Carcano you have zero knowledge of macroeconomics, business and finance. The US debt situation is mild compared to that of other wealthy nations. Our current real debt is less than it was during WWII. The problem is not our debt. The problem we face is the lack of a cogent and prudent fiscal policy....something Republicans have been fighting and continue to fight tooth and nail.

I have a surprise for you, actually it shouldn't be a surprise as you have been told this numerous times over the years. The only way the US can default is if Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling in order to advance a political agenda as is currently the case. There are no economic events which would or could cause the US to ever default on its debt.

The real danger here is the political and economic stupidity demonstrated and advocated by our Republican/Tea Party/Libertarian neighbors.

 

[ElectricFetus]

A default will simply hasten the arrival of what should have already happened...a global loss of confidence in the ability of the US to cut spending or grow its way into a surplus.

First off, do you claim to be prophet? Do you know for sure the future? Second off, even if this is destiny, why set it off before its time and get the blame?

 

[Carcano]

First off, do you claim to be prophet? Do you know for sure the future? Second off, even if this is destiny, why set it off before its time and get the blame?

I didnt say its time...I said its long overdue.

A default simply makes the inevitable more obvious.

 

[Carcano]

So you do think a default on our debt is desirable. If people in Congress share your opinion - that could explain a few things about their recent activities.

Desirable for WHO...US citizens?

 

[Carcano]

One possible alternative is that Obama will simply declare a 'state of emergency' and raise the ceiling by executive order.

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts (former editor of the Wall Street Journal) explains in detail how this is legally possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4wTYyDNRA