Religion's Contributions

Bowser

Namaste
Valued Senior Member
I know religion takes a serious beating on this forum, but despite its flaws, hasn't it contributed to our social fabric over the centuries? Don't we owe some of our common values to past religious influences that played a role in our history? Christianity has been a major influence on Western society. Was it all bad?

I ran into this website while surfing, and I think the guy is too hard on the subject and greatly undervalues the contributions that religion has made to our progress...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell2.htm

I think we owe a debt of gratitude to those who forged forward, their bible in hand, their religion giving them strength to endure. It may be outdated now, but I think it played an important role.
 
I know religion takes a serious beating on this forum, but despite its flaws, hasn't it contributed to our social fabric over the centuries? Don't we owe some of our common values to past religious influences that played a role in our history? Christianity has been a major influence on Western society. Was it all bad?

I ran into this website while surfing, and I think the guy is too hard on the subject and greatly undervalues the contributions that religion has made to our progress...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell2.htm

I think we owe a debt of gratitude to those who forged forward, their bible in hand, their religion giving them strength to endure. It may be outdated now, but I think it played an important role.


Being reasonable and level headed is not an ability of those who are filled with passionate hatred for Christianity.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
One data observation within science, that is overlooked is, religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans. Animals do not display religious behavior, but rely on instinct and sensory data sort of like the atheists.

Relative to evolution, when religious behavior appears, a new behavior that was unique also appeared in nature. Religion was an important part of early civilization, because this unique human behavior created selective advantage.

It is possible that the atheist may lack the genes for this evolutionary change and therefore completely misunderstand it. If they did lack the genetic basis for this, it would make sense, they would prefer a modified version of the animal standard, since animals also lacks this unique human behavior.

The main point is evolution is about change and selective advantage. Religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans and is very ancient and compelling to some, therefore a natural part of a branch of human evolution. Animals don't have this behavior, including the highest apes.
 
It is possible that the atheist may lack the genes for this evolutionary change and therefore completely misunderstand it.

Explain then how people can either lose or find faith if it is a genetic trait.

As for the topic, religion itself began as a method to try and understand the environment around us, why thing happen*. So in that sense it wasn't a "bad" thing, just incorrect. I think it became bad when those in charge learned that they could use it as a tool to control the masses, as well as profit from them.

* Which is why it seem to be unique to us. But can we say for sure that other animals that do seem to think about their surroundings aren't possibly religious? Maybe the ones that seem to reason skipped right to thinking scientifically.
 
For most people, religion's biggest contribution might be psychological.

Religion typically gives people the impression that their own lives and the lives of their loved ones really do have some kind of larger purpose or meaning. It assures people that good is ultimately rewarded and evil will be punished. It humanizes reality in ways that our emotions can respond to as we do other human beings.

People aren't left feeling trapped within an inhuman and uncaring machine without an exit, a meat-grinder that's sooner or later going to inevitably chew them up along with everything that they love and care about.
 
One data observation within science, that is overlooked is, religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans. Animals do not display religious behavior, but rely on instinct and sensory data sort of like the atheists.

Relative to evolution, when religious behavior appears, a new behavior that was unique also appeared in nature. Religion was an important part of early civilization, because this unique human behavior created selective advantage.
You're mistaking correlation for causation.

Humans have religion and animals don't because humans have sufficient intelligence to be self aware and to have the concept of 'minds' and be aware of the existence of minds/intelligences other than our own. From this is it possible for us to anthropomorphise things and assign attributes we associate to our minds to other phenomena in nature. For instance, people who are angry at one another might harm one another and when the ground shakes and people get hurt (ie an earthquake) then early man might have thought there was intent, a concept associated to an intelligence, behind that harm done to the community.

We developed sufficient intelligence to develop technology, language, agriculture, communities etc and it is that which has lead to an evolutionary advantage. However, along with that we have also gained the tools to conceive of things which don't exist, ie an imagination. Part of our intelligence comes from pattern recognition and being able to guess things and if we see patterns which don't exist and use our imaginations we could arrive at notions similar to religion, explaining things we see as work of some other intelligence.

Another important thing which is evolutionarily important is accepting what we're told as kids. If we're told "Don't run into the road" as a kid and we ignore it we're more likely to be hit by a car. As a child taking things on faith is an important thing. Unfortunately we then carry with us some of the things we are taught as kids into adulthood and some people never stop to question what they took on faith as a child.

Religion isn't an evolutionary advantage, it is hijacking for its own purposes behaviours and tools evolution has provided us.

It is possible that the atheist may lack the genes for this evolutionary change and therefore completely misunderstand it. If they did lack the genetic basis for this, it would make sense, they would prefer a modified version of the animal standard, since animals also lacks this unique human behavior.
Well done on demonstrating you are yet another example of a religious person who doesn't grasp evolution. As has already been pointed out, how can someone's choice of to their religious beliefs (or lack of) be genetic? When someone converts from Christianity to Islam does their DNA change? Of course not! And religious belief is not genetic. It is passed down through families because parents teach their kids what they believe but that is nurture, not nature.

The fact you talk about others misunderstanding evolutionary change when you utterly fail to understand evolution and how religion develops and is passed on in a culture is all the more ironic.

The main point is evolution is about change and selective advantage. Religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans and is very ancient and compelling to some, therefore a natural part of a branch of human evolution.
Your conclusion does not follow from the assumptions. Religion may well be a facet of human civilisation which cannot be removed, for the reasons I outlined above, but that doesn't mean it is a positive thing in general. A challenge Christopher Hitchins gives to many theists is to provide an example of a real demonstrable benefit of religion which cannot be obtained through secular means. There isn't one. Benefits religion might give which lead to a group having improved chances of survival might include prompting people to share resources or to help ill members of the group but those things are done in secular communities too.

Now we are moving into a more and more technology dependent society as a whole the ardent anti-science mindset many religions try to entrench into their followers will not be an evolutionary advantage as time goes on. For instance, science provides us with the means to feed billions of people and protect them from many illnesses via vaccinations and from water borne disease via water treatment. Billions living now depend on science, you can't sustain 7 billion people using Bronze Age methods.

The anti-evolutionary crap spouted by many Christians and Muslims (to name but two examples) attempts to retard our understanding of biology and biotechnology is essential to our future.

The Islamic world used to be the pinnacle of scientific development (1100ish), while Europe was deep in the Dark Ages. Then Europe emerged from the era of being dominated by religion and the Arabic world went much more extreme. Since then the Arabic world has declined enormously in scientific development. More research is done by Harvard or Cambridge than entire Middle East countries.

Why is it so many religions love saying how their god made us in his image and gave us a mind so we could appreciate his work and yet they then tell us not to use that mind to examine the universe around us?
 
One data observation within science, that is overlooked is, religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans. Animals do not display religious behavior, but rely on instinct and sensory data sort of like the atheists.

Relative to evolution, when religious behavior appears, a new behavior that was unique also appeared in nature. Religion was an important part of early civilization, because this unique human behavior created selective advantage.

It is possible that the atheist may lack the genes for this evolutionary change and therefore completely misunderstand it. If they did lack the genetic basis for this, it would make sense, they would prefer a modified version of the animal standard, since animals also lacks this unique human behavior.

The main point is evolution is about change and selective advantage. Religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans and is very ancient and compelling to some, therefore a natural part of a branch of human evolution. Animals don't have this behavior, including the highest apes.

That's actually incorrect. B.F. Skinner demonstrated the development of superstitious behavior in pigeons:

One of Skinner's experiments examined the formation of superstition in one of his favorite experimental animals, the pigeon. Skinner placed a series of hungry pigeons in a cage attached to an automatic mechanism that delivered food to the pigeon "at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior." He discovered that the pigeons associated the delivery of the food with whatever chance actions they had been performing as it was delivered, and that they subsequently continued to perform these same actions.[41]

One bird was conditioned to turn counter-clockwise about the cage, making two or three turns between reinforcements. Another repeatedly thrust its head into one of the upper corners of the cage. A third developed a 'tossing' response, as if placing its head beneath an invisible bar and lifting it repeatedly. Two birds developed a pendulum motion of the head and body, in which the head was extended forward and swung from right to left with a sharp movement followed by a somewhat slower return.[42][43]

Skinner suggested that the pigeons behaved as if they were influencing the automatic mechanism with their "rituals" and that this experiment shed light on human behavior:

The experiment might be said to demonstrate a sort of superstition. The bird behaves as if there were a causal relation between its behavior and the presentation of food, although such a relation is lacking. There are many analogies in human behavior. Rituals for changing one's fortune at cards are good examples. A few accidental connections between a ritual and favorable consequences suffice to set up and maintain the behavior in spite of many unreinforced instances. The bowler who has released a ball down the alley but continues to behave as if she were controlling it by twisting and turning her arm and shoulder is another case in point. These behaviors have, of course, no real effect upon one's luck or upon a ball half way down an alley, just as in the present case the food would appear as often if the pigeon did nothing—or, more strictly speaking, did something else.[42] (wikipedia)
 
I believe Islam has contributed two worthwhile principles.

To abstain always from alcohol and to fast at certain periods of the lunar calendar.

Both healthy choices.
 
As with any form of enterprise trying to organize humanity, religions have done their part in making some headway for we humans to follow so as not to unravel into a bunch of traveling caravans wandering around like nomads around the Earth with no discernible interest other than self preservation. Governments have also been developed that also brought humanity together but only to be torn apart by wars, deceit and corruption.
 
I believe Islam has contributed two worthwhile principles.

To abstain always from alcohol and to fast at certain periods of the lunar calendar.

Both healthy choices.
I believe many, many studies have shown that a glass of red wine every day significantly improves health, especially cardiovascular health.
 
That's actually incorrect. B.F. Skinner demonstrated the development of superstitious behavior in pigeons:
...
From what I vaguely remember of my undergrad psychology class, these sorts of experiments have been shown to work with lots of different animals. Some of the more intelligent ones (e.g., apes) will actually "teach" the superstitions to others, causing them to spread.
 
The Industrial Revolution would have happened a lot sooner if it weren't for religion. So would the Rennissance. I am going old school. Even the Greeks- the Library at Alexander for example contained a great deal of knowledge. With that said, we should be somewhere in the 31st century today by those standards- the first plane should have been made some 700 years ago by now.
 
One data observation within science, that is overlooked is, religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans. Animals do not display religious behavior, but rely on instinct and sensory data sort of like the atheists.
This is not necessarily true. As I have posted before, Jung's theory of archetypes, augmented by what we have learned about DNA since his death, suggests that belief in the supernatural may be an instinct, pre-programmed into our synapses by the vagaries of evolution.
The main point is evolution is about change and selective advantage. Religious behavior is a behavior that is unique to humans and is very ancient and compelling to some, therefore a natural part of a branch of human evolution. Animals don't have this behavior, including the highest apes.
As I have also posted before, it's plausible (which is not the same thing as being proven true) that religion may have been a survival advantage for our species during the Paradigm Shift from the Paleolithic Era of nomadic hunter-gatherers to the Neolithic Era of permanent agricultural villages. The advantage of agriculture is greatly increased by division of labor and economy of scale, both of which require a larger community than the small extended-family units that were the norm in the Paleolithic.

Clans had to merge and live together, in conflict with their pack-social instinct to distrust each other. Discovering that they shared the same or similar models of a world ruled by supernatural creatures and forces may have made them more comfortable with each other, facilitating that first step toward civilization.

Unfortunately as civilization progressed and clans grew larger, they began encountering other clans who had been separated for so long that their supernatural model had changed significantly and no longer seemed familiar and comfortable. As a result, clans are now making war among themselves over the differences in their religions.

Religion may have been an advantage in the Stone Age, but today it is a major liability to progress and perhaps even to survival.
 
I know religion takes a serious beating on this forum, but despite its flaws, hasn't it contributed to our social fabric over the centuries? Don't we owe some of our common values to past religious influences that played a role in our history? Christianity has been a major influence on Western society. Was it all bad?

I ran into this website while surfing, and I think the guy is too hard on the subject and greatly undervalues the contributions that religion has made to our progress...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell2.htm

I think we owe a debt of gratitude to those who forged forward, their bible in hand, their religion giving them strength to endure. It may be outdated now, but I think it played an important role.

Parents are inevitably outgrown by the offspring, unless of course the offspring is deficient. Should we owe present religions any gratitude? I think not. The animal simply did what it did, with no true understanding of that-which-it-did's historical importance or knock-on effect into socioevolutionary systems. Did the religions of the world really believe in the morals they pedalled, or just use them for manipulation, power and control of people and assets? Should we congratulate religions that still exist today? Only if they show abilities to evolve and move with the times.

We do however have to acknowledge the effects of religion on morality (despite the flawed way in which it has and still does apply it). Surely we would not be here without religion: Same as in life; I have done many things in my life I regret; but I wouldn't take back a thing, as I wouldn't be where I am today.

Does one congratulate nature/chaos?
 
We do however have to acknowledge the effects of religion on morality (despite the flawed way in which it has and still does apply it). Surely we would not be here without religion: Same as in life; I have done many things in my life I regret; but I wouldn't take back a thing, as I wouldn't be where I am today.

Does one congratulate nature/chaos?
Do we? Religion didn't invent morality. Religion is a product of humans, therefore it's morals are also a product of humans.
 
Do we? Religion didn't invent morality. Religion is a product of humans, therefore it's morals are also a product of humans.

Please explain where I stated religion 'invented' morality.

I think you missed the point of my post.
 
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