Religion: Lost in translation?

[lestatbled]

As a young child growing up I constantly heard Hebrew names such as Elohim and Yahweh and decided to ask my parents the meaning of these words. My parents sat me down and said that they were names for God but in another language. I was happy with the explanation and left it at that. However, to my shock and amazement I recently discovered the exact meaning of the Hebrew word Elohim.

I am currently reading a book called "The secret history of the world" by Jonathan Black. How you want to interpret the findings in his book depends entirely on yourself. One important point that he raised was the following. The Bible is translated from Hebrew, which is a no brainer. He discusses the creation story by taking verses from Genesis and explains it from his viewpoint.

Genesis 1:26 is translated as "In the beginning God made heaven and earth" and the word God was translated into english from the hebrew word Elohim. Elohim, however, directly translated from Hebrew into english reads "GOD" but in plural, meaning Gods.

After I read this I even went as far as googling the translation of Elohim to english and everytime it said God but in plural form such as Gods. Now this can be life altering. If you are a monotheistic christian that believes in one God your world might be turned upside down.

Genesis 1:26 should have read "In the beginning GODS made the heaven and earth." This is completely different than what Chritianity stands for. I thought it to be very interesting and just had to share it. You decide for yourself.

Was religion lost in translation?

 

[spidergoat]

It's well known that Judaism was polytheistic long before it settled on another model. God used to have a wife. To this day, Catholicism and Mormonism are polytheistic. Catholics have their saints, and the Virgin, and in Mormonism, you can become a God yourself!

 

[Xylene]

I understand that the Hebrews were polytheistic for much of their early history, and it seems that only after their return from the Babylonian exile did they become gradually monotheistic. King Solomon, for example, was said to have had dozens of wives, which was normal for rulers in his day. The writers of the Bible claim (I paraphrase) that his wives 'turned his mind to different gods', with the implication that they led him into the heresy of polytheism. However, with polytheism being normal for Jewish society in those days anyway, any marriage alliance was obviously a political move, and paying respect to the gods of your new wife's society would also have been seen as a normal, even obligatory, act of diplomacy. I daresay that Solomon had no problem with the idea of doing so; but the later writers who no doubt edited the earlier books of the Bible, in an age when the Hebrews had become monotheistic, certainly did have a problem with such activity; hence their censorious tone regarding Solomon's wives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism

 

[Hapsburg]

It's well known that Judaism was polytheistic long before it settled on another model. God used to have a wife.

Quite. But, by the time the Torah was written, Judaism was solidly monotheistic.
The retention of the plural was either a nod to the Royal "we", or a nod to oral tradition that the Torah was based from.

To this day, Catholicism...[is] polytheistic. Catholics have their saints, and the Virgin

No, it is not polytheistic. I really am getting tired of this fucking bullshit claim. I am a polytheist; I know what polytheism is, and Catholicism is not it. The Saints are not seen as gods; they are prayed to for intercession, not as divine beings. They are venerated, not worshipped. To claim that Catholicism is polytheistic is blatant ignorance of Catholic theology.

I understand that the Hebrews were polytheistic for much of their early history, and it seems that only after their return from the Babylonian exile did they become gradually monotheistic.

It was more of during the exile that they became gradually monotheistic. By the time of their return, they were monotheist.

King Solomon, for example, was said to have had dozens of wives...his wives 'turned his mind to different gods', with the implication that they led him into the heresy of polytheism....

Well, first off, this is assuming the Old Testament can be trusted as a literal historical source. It's more of the tribal mythology of the Hebrew people than anything else.
In any case, even though early Judaism was polytheistic, it was also very, very henotheist, and even monist. The only deity worshipped was El, a solar creator-god; the others were either ignored or merely paid lip service, which made their switch to monotheism quite fluid.

 

[Rav]

I think you're getting a bit excited here. If you research this a little more you'll find that the term was often used as a singular noun.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I think you're getting a bit excited here. If you research this a little more you'll find that the term was often used as a singular noun.

* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

I've never heard that before. Please cite your source.

 

[1100f]

As a young child growing up I constantly heard Hebrew names such as Elohim and Yahweh and decided to ask my parents the meaning of these words. My parents sat me down and said that they were names for God but in another language. I was happy with the explanation and left it at that. However, to my shock and amazement I recently discovered the exact meaning of the Hebrew word Elohim.

I am currently reading a book called "The secret history of the world" by Jonathan Black. How you want to interpret the findings in his book depends entirely on yourself. One important point that he raised was the following. The Bible is translated from Hebrew, which is a no brainer. He discusses the creation story by taking verses from Genesis and explains it from his viewpoint.

Genesis 1:26 is translated as "In the beginning God made heaven and earth" and the word God was translated into english from the hebrew word Elohim. Elohim, however, directly translated from Hebrew into english reads "GOD" but in plural, meaning Gods.

After I read this I even went as far as googling the translation of Elohim to english and everytime it said God but in plural form such as Gods. Now this can be life altering. If you are a monotheistic christian that believes in one God your world might be turned upside down.

Genesis 1:26 should have read "In the beginning GODS made the heaven and earth." This is completely different than what Chritianity stands for. I thought it to be very interesting and just had to share it. You decide for yourself.

Was religion lost in translation?

In hebrew, generally when you have a word, in order to make a plural out of this word you ad "im" (for masculin words) or "ot" (for femini words). So that "elohim" looks like plural. However, there exist words that terminates with "im" and that are singular (for example the word "listim" which means a thief and is singular).
But if you look at the first sentence in the bible: "Bereshit bara elohim et hashamaim ve et haaretz", The verb bara ברא means created but it is in singular form. In plural form, it would have been baru בראו. So that according to the first sentence in the bible, although it seems that the word "elohim" is in plural, the whole sentence shows that it is a singular

 

[Michael]

lestatbled,

- In the beginning jews were polytheistic.
- then their belief evolved into worshiping God and his wife (they still believed in the other Gods, they just didn't worship them).
- then they got rid of God's wife and only worshiped God
- then they became Xians.
- Xians started worshiping the trinity
- Xians started praying to the Saints
- Xians are somewhat polytheistic now (Saints playing the role of minor Gods).

the next great evolution in religion is the incorporation of aliens and, if everything goes to plan, The Jedi.


Michael

 

[Michael]

God's wife Asherah (before the divorce) can be seen here:

 

[Rav]

* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

I've never heard that before. Please cite your source.

The word Elohim has always been used as both a singular and plural term. There is no dispute about this amongst scholars who study the ancient Hebrew language. I really can't be bothered trying to remember the names of any of the books I read years and years ago when I was interested in Christian theology, nor do I feel motivated to scour the internet for reliably sources of information on the matter. But if anyone else can be, I'm certain that you will find the information you need.

Aside from all that, does it really even matter? Even if it could be demonstrated that the word Elohim is always plural in both form and sense (which again, no one who properly understands the language would agree with) you're forgetting that the God of the bible is in one sense plural anyway. The idea of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, different manifestations of the same god, is central to Christian theology.

Of course don't let me stop you from disputing anything about Christianity. Turn it upside down and tear if apart if you like. I really have no vested interest in it these days. Suggesting that the ancient Hebrew scholars have got it wrong is another matter. They don't just study ancient biblical scripture. They study everything they can find and I can guarantee you that the word Elohim appears in others writings in different contexts as well.

 

[CheskiChips]

Rav is making things up.

Elohi means roughly "Judger of.."
Elohim means "Our Judges"

There's theological reasons why.

 

[Rav]

I don't make things up. This is especially true when I have no agenda to push. Why don't you all go off and find some definitive information that's been published by someone who isn't some fringe pseudo scholar. Seriously, just type "elohim" and "plural" into google. Do it. I'm not saying that you can trust the validity of every result, but I think the issue should become clear to you all eventually.

I deeply apologize for being too lazy to do it myself. It's covered ground for me that just isn't truly relevant anymore.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I understand that the Hebrews were polytheistic for much of their early history, and it seems that only after their return from the Babylonian exile did they become gradually monotheistic. King Solomon, for example, was said to have had dozens of wives, which was normal for rulers in his day. The writers of the Bible claim (I paraphrase) that his wives 'turned his mind to different gods', with the implication that they led him into the heresy of polytheism. However, with polytheism being normal for Jewish society in those days anyway, any marriage alliance was obviously a political move, and paying respect to the gods of your new wife's society would also have been seen as a normal, even obligatory, act of diplomacy. I daresay that Solomon had no problem with the idea of doing so; but the later writers who no doubt edited the earlier books of the Bible, in an age when the Hebrews had become monotheistic, certainly did have a problem with such activity; hence their censorious tone regarding Solomon's wives.

*************
M*W: I believe that King Solomon is a metaphor for the Sun (as in Sol-o-man or "the Sun of Man." I believe "Solomon's wives" refer to stars (or even constallations). "The Kingdom of Heaven," I believe, refers to the zodiac. ("...On Earth as it is in Heaven.") But then, of course, I understand it from the astro-theological standpoint.

 

[CheskiChips]

*************
M*W: I believe that King Solomon is a metaphor for the Sun (as in Sol-o-man or "the Sun of Man." I believe "Solomon's wives" refer to stars (or even constallations). "The Kingdom of Heaven," I believe, refers to the zodiac. ("...On Earth as it is in Heaven.") But then, of course, I understand it from the astro-theological standpoint.

Medicinewoman, you continually post the most rediculous things I've ever read.
Solomon in Hebrew is prounouced Shlomo (שְׁלֹמֹה) which translates to "God gave him completeness" or "God gave him peace"

Sun in Hebrew is written, שמש or חמה. (Shamesh, Khamah) The first one being a proper noun, the second refering to the heat of the sun. Son is בן (ben) and of is simply the letter ב (b), man is אדם (Adem). So son of man would have been, literally translated - בן של אדם (Ben shol adem) and gramatically fixed הילד של אדם (h'yelid shol adem) literally the son of man. Or sun of man is שמש של אדם or חמה של אדם (Shamesh shol adem and khama shol adem). none of which rhyme or even take normal Hebrew metaphor to Solomon.

So I must ask Medicinewoman, do you care about facts? Or will you continue to make up your theology as you see fitting?
---
Xylene...how could you make any evidence to support they were Polytheistic? When Deuteronomy 6:4 says clearly "They are one"... And that was BEFORE Egypt.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Medicinewoman, you continually post the most rediculous things I've ever read. Solomon in Hebrew is prounouced Shlomo (שְׁלֹמֹה) which translates to "God gave him completeness" or "God gave him peace"

Sun in Hebrew is written, שמש or חמה. (Shamesh, Khamah) The first one being a proper noun, the second refering to the heat of the sun. Son is בן (ben) and of is simply the letter ב (b), man is אדם (Adem). So son of man would have been, literally translated - בן של אדם (Ben shol adem) and gramatically fixed הילד של אדם (h'yelid shol adem) literally the son of man. Or sun of man is שמש של אדם or חמה של אדם (Shamesh shol adem and khama shol adem). none of which rhyme or even take normal Hebrew metaphor to Solomon.

So I must ask Medicinewoman, do you care about facts? Or will you continue to make up your theology as you see fitting?
---
Xylene...how could you make any evidence to support they were Polytheistic? When Deuteronomy 6:4 says clearly "They are one"... And that was BEFORE Egypt.

*************
M*W: I am in no way attempting to deny or underplay your rich heritage nor your understanding of Hebrew. In fact, I read your posts to learn more about something I know little about. I never claimed to know any Hebrew. I form my theories on this subject based on the translations of translations of translations of the new testament and its subliminal association with astrological concepts. However, this is not a new idea. Astro-theology has been around since, well, "in the beginning." Maybe I am the only one who sees this association, so don't be too concerned.

So to answer your question, astro-theology is of great interest to me so I will continue to relate my own theories and opinions regardless of what others think of me.