Religion, a different view

J

jusmeig

Registered Senior Member
Hi,

Firstly I wish to point out that this article is not meant to offend any member of any religion, however it does deal with many points and facts you may not agree with. I am not trying to force my views on anybody, I simply wish to recieve feedback.

I believe religion (in its many forms) to be a system of control that ensures stability within a community. I believe there is no divine power at work behind all the text. To enforce this view I refer to the origins of religion. Religion was concieved at a time when the world was in even more chaos than it is in now. Disease was rampant, and the people of the world lived under harsh and cruel dictatorships. It was during this era that religion was spawned. To present the idea of religion to a mainly illiterate populace, the storys and fables were created to bring the teachings of religion to the common man. Verbal conversation is perfect for such a delivery method, as the meaning changes with each generation. Hence the myths of lake walking and burning bushes. These events are interesting, and hence catch our interest. It is not a conincidence that the bibile and Koran are filled with fantastic events, it was an easy way to deliver religion. It is in human nature to sugar coat a message to make it more appealing, it is not divine!

With religion established through story, the true side of human nature shone through. Religion gave birth to hundreds of years of war....as Christian Crusaders invaded, without provocation, the lands around them! Almost every war fought since the conception of religion has a religious undertone! Why is this so? My explanation is simple:

Strip away the magic of religion, take away Jesus, Alla, Buda (etc..) and all the symbols of religion. Humans don't need symbols to follow. If you have not made up your own mind and found your own truths why would you listen to words that have been chopped and changed by many generations. If I told you now that you cannot wash as your religion says so....would you listen to me? Don't fall into the pit of organised religion, make up your own mind, find your own truths. When you choose to enter a system of organised religion you give up the very things that make you human:

Your right to question!
The quest for knowledge and Truth!

Your not a bad person if you fracture the laws of a religion, as long as you uphold certain moral standards. Had this article been written in the past...I may be well be burning on a stack, or stonned to death...All in the name of religion!
 
Originally posted by jusmeig
I believe religion (in its many forms) to be a system of control that ensures stability within a community. I believe there is no divine power at work behind all the text.

Based on….?

Religion was concieved at a time when the world was in even more chaos than it is in now.

Not according to the Vedas.

Disease was rampant, and the people of the world lived under harsh and cruel dictatorships. It was during this era that religion was spawned.

Can you give more detail as to how you know this?

Verbal conversation is perfect for such a delivery method, as the meaning changes with each generation.

I agree this may be so in modern times, but how do you know ancient cultures had the same mentality as modern cultures?

It is in human nature to sugar coat a message to make it more appealing, it is not divine!

Sugar coated things have a tendency of become sour or tasteless coated, this would mean we would have to keep re-inventing religions to keep us interested. While I agree that it is entirely possible that religions could be invented for this purpose, I doubt very much that the message from God or His associates is sugar coated, as the taste gets better with each realisation.

Almost every war fought since the conception of religion has a religious undertone!

But when we look back in hind-sight, we see that the results of these wars were about land, oil, precious stones, etc.

If you have not made up your own mind and found your own truths why would you listen to words that have been chopped and changed by many generations.

As it ever occurred to you that some people believe in God, after making up their own mind?

Once you understand the laws and how it works, it is not so hard to recognise something that has been tampered with, and like so many other branches of knowledge, there are people within, who are more advanced and may be able to help with misunderstandings.

If I told you now that you cannot wash as your religion says so....would you listen to me?

No.
This is why your whole premise is wrong.

When you choose to enter a system of organised religion you give up the very things that make you human:

Hmmm…..that is a very deep statement, you should, in all honest, elaborate on it.

Your right to question!
The quest for knowledge and Truth!

It is precisely for these reasons I decided to look into religion.

Your not a bad person if you fracture the laws of a religion,

What are the laws?

Had this article been written in the past...I may be well be burning on a stack, or stonned to death...All in the name of religion!

In some regions you may well have been.

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
its a bit annoying when people break down a post into little bits and then criticize details. It doesn't necesarily refute the entire thought when single sentences are refuted. Everybody seems to do it though on forums, even I do it. Why not formulate a nice little paragraph of your own with all the essential thoughts gathered together and all major criticisms. Personally I don't read broken down responses unless they are short (only a respons to one or two details) because it is too tiresome to do so.

and to jus, I would like to say that I think the notion he brought forward is quite a valid one. A community can only exist on the basis of some kind of stability and religion might have enhanced the feeling of community. Hence it also might have been a characteristic of the human species that was under the influence of evolution. Individuals with a good sense of religion did better in communities and this trait was enhanced in new generations to come. In the end humans might all be born with some kind of religious feeling hardwired in their brain as a result of ancient evolutionary selective pressures.
 
Thank you Jan for your reply,

Firstly from my account it is clear I do not have a religion.

I will try and explain myself a bit better, so you will have an understanding of where I am coming from:

*I believe religion to be the device of man. Nobody will dispute that humans seek power and money (wealth etc) as you stated in your point about war and its causes. A system to allow control and the aquistion of wealth. I will take Christianity for example:

God told us to be humble, and then the Vatican was built. Jesus himself destroyed the temple in disgust....yet we built churches into the sky. The Church over the many years has gathered more money that Microsoft. Is all this money given to do good in the world: NO is my answer to that. So too look at the foundation of this system we come back to my initial point: religion as a system of control. There is nothing divine in here, just clever human intuition.

*Sorry I don't know who Vedas is, perhaps someone could enlighten me?

*My point about disease being rampant, the romans, egyptians, persians and greeks all kept excellent records about the problems of the time. This point is not in dispute. This is known recorded history. The Bible speaks of leapers and the sick.

*Verbal conversation was the start of communication. The bible was written based on verbal accounts. The bible was written by man...and man is fallible.


*The taste of religion does not grow sweeter for me, as I question its very being. I need a little bit more evidence that blind faith. Sometimes I wish I had blind faith and answers.

*I agree with the point about war, but explain the Crusades. I can see how oil would benifit a horse drawn army.

*"When you choose to enter a system of organised religion you give up the very things that make you human"

If faith is enough for somebody to devote their life to a system that will not be proven until they die, then so be it. I am not one to listen to : "Do not test God". Why not? That to me looks like another clause written into the bible to ensure its control...if we can't question we can't understand.

*"Your not a bad person if you fracture the laws of a religion": Sex outside of marrige......

Thank you once again for your interest in my article, I am glad it generate some interest.

J
 
Originally posted by jusmeig
So too look at the foundation of this system we come back to my initial point: religion as a system of control. There is nothing divine in here, just clever human intuition.

I hear you and agree with you, religion is and has been used to control, but that is no different to anything else which is in demand by the public. Unscrupulous people will always find ways to benefit off the innocent population, politics, science, philosophy, sex, economic development….i could go on and on. But the real criminal is not “religion” it is the people who do these things, and say it is sanctioned by religion..

*Sorry I don't know who Vedas is, perhaps someone could enlighten me?

The Vedas are described as; eternal truths revealed by God to the great rishis (saintly persons) of India, the rishis heard the truths, so the vedas are known as “shruti” (to hear). The term “Veda” comes from the root Vid, “to know”. (these are sanskrit terminology)
The word “Veda” means knowledge. When it is applied to scripture, it signifies a book of knowledge.

The truths contained in all religions are derived from the Vedas and are ultimately traceable to the Vedas. They are the fountain-head of religion, and the ultimate source to which all religious knowledge can be traced.

The Four Vedas And Their Sub Divisions

The Veda is divided into four great books:
1. The Rig-Veda
2. The Yajur-Veda
3. The Sama-Veda
4. The Atharva-Veda

The Yajur-Veda is again divided into two parts: Each Veda consists of four parts:

5. The Mantra-Samhitas or hymns.
6. The Brahmanas or explanations of Mantras or rituals.
7. The Aranyakas (philosophical interpretations of the rituals).
8. The Upanishads (The essence or the knowledge portion of the Vedas).

1. The Sukla Yajur-Veda
2. The Krishna Yajur-Veda.

The division of the Vedas into four parts is to suit the four stages in a man’s life.

The subject matter of the whole Veda is divided into
9. Karma-Kanda
10. Upasana-Kanda
11. Jnana-Kanda.

You see, it is not such a simple thing as some men got together and come up with a religion. What I have given you is a super-basic description, you do not have enough time in one life to understand it.

*My point about disease being rampant, the romans, egyptians, persians and greeks all kept excellent records about the problems of the time. This point is not in dispute. This is known recorded history. The Bible speaks of leapers and the sick.

These civilisations are just a few thousand years old, there is no evidence to suggest that these cultures were the beginings of the so-called civilised world we live in.

*Verbal conversation was the start of communication. The bible was written based on verbal accounts. The bible was written by man...and man is fallible.

So what, it doesn’t mean that he always fails.

*The taste of religion does not grow sweeter for me, as I question its very being. I need a little bit more evidence that blind faith. Sometimes I wish I had blind faith and answers.

You probably need to take a step back, put your pride in your pocket, and listen for a while, I don’t mean to belittle you or insult you so please forgive me if that’s how it sounds. You are making theism and athiesm a battle, when the only battle is, how each individual lives their lives.

Unless you know everything, there has to be blind faith, eg, you say religion is this and that, but you know nothing about religion (AFAICS), you cite only what you can perceive and then use that as knowledge. You know nothing about the Vedas or the Jewel of the Vedas, namely “Srimad Bhagavad Gita” so you are spiritualy blind, and yet claim to know, this to me is the definition of blind faith.

*I agree with the point about war, but explain the Crusades. I can see how oil would benifit a horse drawn army.

I am not up on the crusades, so please tell what the conclusion was, and how it has manifested itself today.

That to me looks like another clause written into the bible to ensure its control...if we can't question we can't understand.

Again you are using man-made doctrines and saying this is religion, show me in any scripture where a non-beleiver is prohibited from testing God.

Sex outside of marrige......

This is a common sense law, not a law of religion.
When God gave these commandments to Moses, it was in order to keep the foolish people from throwing there freedom away by indulging in activities which would surely make them fall. Even if it was not a commandment, (I take it you are talking about thou shalt not commit adultery) It wouldn’t be that hard to work out it is not in your best interest, in the long run.

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
HI Jan,

Thank you for explaining Vedas. I take it that from your faith then that all religious knowledge can be traced to its words?

Firstly let me point out again that I did not wish to provoke or annoy anybody, I simply wish to present my views.

My problem with this is that most religions seem to claim that all religious truth stems from their religion. In fact from viewing these forums it seems to me like members of different religions are always trying to prove each other wrong, and discredit each others view points. I think this gives me a unique look at the dilema as a whole, as I have no faith to tie me down, so therefore I do not get annoyed or emotional when somebody comments.

As for history, it is well know that here were many great civilisations that started religions thousands of years before the more modern religions. In India 7000 years ago Kurgan culture was present, with their own set of gods and their own faith. Following Mongol invaders and of course Alexander the Great's invasion of india another great civilisation was born. We are not disputing history, as that is proven fact. And I will not argue debate that as it is fact, and has tacktile evidence.

I only ask that you look at this a little differenly, without being offended: "Give me some reasons as to why your reglion and belief system is any more credable than the religion of ancient eygpt, wihtout refering to ancient text, or unprovable fables?"

I ASK THIS QUESTION TO EVERYONE.

Cheers,

Jus
 
Hi Jus,

Please do not assume that I am annoyed or emotional by your questions, in fact it is refreshing to see questions, where the person does not insult God or Religion, and I hope you carry on in this vain.
A mistake that is often made by “atheists” is that they act like they know what religion is, because they went to church and Sunday school, or their parents forced them to go the catholic church. In my experience, this is religious but not religion, or God. You made this mistake right from the beginning of your post.

Religious institutes or organizations are no different to any other institute or organization, there is bickering, arguing, difference of opinions and so on, an organization or an individual cannot seriously profess to have the truth without it being based cent for cent on the HQ’s of that particular truth. In the case OF religion, the HQ’s, are the scriptures. If the individual or even organisation, follows the instruction implicitly, within the confines of the law of the land, then that is religious truth.

I only ask that you look at this a little differenly, without being offended:

Wait a minute…………………………………………………OOOOOOOkay shoot!

"Give me some reasons as to why your reglion and belief system is any more credable than the religion of ancient eygpt, wihtout refering to ancient text, or unprovable fables?"

The Vedas is not a religion, it incorporates everything, science, art, philosophy and religion, as I stated before, Veda means knowledge. While you may get different religions, which appear completely different from each other, every law has its roots in the vedas. For example, it is sinful to kill cows, what to speak of eating them, to Hindus, but to Muslims it is not, it is sinful to touch the stool of an animal, but it is good to use cow-dung for various reasons. There are lots of seeming contradictions within religion, so there is no right or wrong religion as long as the adherents follow the law of both their religion and of the land.

All the religious rituals which were performed by the ancient eygptians, and their belief systems can be traced back to the vedas.

The only religion which is non-vedic is Buddhists, so this cannot technically be called a religion as they do not worship God. But we have it on good authority that Lord Buddha is an incarnation of God. :)

wihtout refering to ancient text, or unprovable fables?"

How will you ever know anything about God, the object of religion, if you do not study ancient texts, this is how one builds understanding.

I will stop here, and hopefully you will get some more interest, sorry if I rattled on a bit.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Hi there,

Cheers fo the info Jan, this is indeed interesting stuff. I will try and explain my question a bit better to point to what it is I am trying to say: Take this for example:

Modern Civilisation in 2000 years since the birth of Jesus, Islam came a bit later as did many other religions.

Every ancient civilisation had religious beliefs, including Pagans. To these people their beliefs were perfectly sound. To the egyptians Amon Ra was god. He had as much history as Jesus, Alla or Budda...as the egyptian civilisation is still much older than current civilisation. To the egyptian people Amon Ra was god, he could do all the great things "god" could do.

The Romans had many gods, and to the romans these gods were all powerful. But in both cases a set of fundamental rules applied. These rules are at the heart of every religion (MOST). These rules enable peaceful co-existence between people.

This is my point. If you strip away the fables you are left with a good set of core values. This to me is religion. Not living in fear of an all powerful god. Not praising an all powerful god for making life possible.

Can you at least see my point. Every race believes their religion to be correct. Every race trys to make their religion appear more valid. Well I simply strip away the names/places and fables placed on top of religion, and agree with their core values.

Cheers,

Jus
 
Originally posted by jusmeig
This is my point. If you strip away the fables you are left with a good set of core values. This to me is religion. Not living in fear of an all powerful god. Not praising an all powerful god for making life possible.

I totally agree!

Can you at least see my point. Every race believes their religion to be correct. Every race trys to make their religion appear more valid. Well I simply strip away the names/places and fables placed on top of religion, and agree with their core values.

Not only do I see your point, but it is clearly an observation you have made, and therefore very valid, whether or not you believe in God.

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by jusmeig


Can you at least see my point. Every race believes their religion to be correct. Every race trys to make their religion appear more valid. Well I simply strip away the names/places and fables placed on top of religion, and agree with their core values.


Jus
Click to expand...

interesting to see that religion is genetically inherited based on 'race'.
 
Sorry spuriousmonkey,

I did not mean to say that race and religion are linked. I was trying to say that members of the same religion tend to discredit other religions. Religion is of course not race orientated, I hope this clears this up a bit........

And Jan,

If you fully agree with my point: Religion is a system of control (and not something divine given to us by an all powerful god)when you remove the sugar coated fables (the stories behind the rules), why did you rant and rave all of the above????

Jus
 
Originally posted by jusmeig
And Jan,

If you fully agree with my point: Religion is a system of control (and not something divine given to us by an all powerful god)when you remove the sugar coated fables (the stories behind the rules),

Jus

I agree religion can be used to control people by other people, but religion itself, as stated in the scripture is not used to control people, but guide them.
You are being very naughty by putting words into my cyber mouth. :)

You said;

This is my point. If you strip away the fables you are left with a good set of core values. This to me is religion. Not living in fear of an all powerful god. Not praising an all powerful god for making life possible.

I said;

I totally agree.

You should make yourself clearer;

1) if there are any fables in religion, then when striped away, you should be left with the core values.

2) You should specify exactly what you mean by fables, in some religous circles it can be known to mean parables, which if you strip away you are still left with the core values.

3) I agree that living in fear of the Supreme Lord, is worse than living in love of the Supreme Lord, but if there is a Supreme Lord, then get used to it.

why did you rant and rave all of the above????

Rant and rave!!! :confused:
Is that how it came across to you?
I thought we had an understanding, you should have pointed that out, please accept my apologies.

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
Nationalism, a different view

jusmeig, I have something to say too.......

Firstly I wish to point out that this article is not meant to offend any member of atheism, however it does deal with many points and facts you may not agree with. I am not trying to force my views on anybody, I simply wish to recieve feedback.

I believe Governing (in its many forms such as atheism, nationalism, and religion) to be a system of control that ensures stability within a community. I believe there is no real truths at work behind all the text. To enforce this view I refer to the origins of nationalism and government. Governing was concieved at a time when the world was in even more chaos than it is in now. Disease was rampant, and the people of the world lived under harsh and cruel dictatorships. It was during this era that nationalism and governing was spawned. To present the idea of nationalism to a mainly illiterate populace, the storys and fables were created to bring the teachings of nationalism to the common man. Verbal conversation is perfect for such a delivery method, as the meaning changes with each generation. Hence the myths of conquerors and kings. These events are interesting, and hence catch our interest. It is not a conincidence that the history are filled with fantastic events, it was an easy way to deliver governing. It is in human nature to sugar coat a message to make it more appealing, it is not truth!

With government established through story, the true side of human nature shone through. Nationalism gave birth to hundreds of years of war....as French Revolutionary war invaded, without provocation, the lands around them! Almost every war fought since the conception of nationalism has a governing undertone! Why is this so? My explanation is simple:

Strip away the authority of nationalism, take away the presidents, senators, dictators (etc..) and all the symbols of Nationalism. Humans don't need symbols to follow. If you have not made up your own mind and found your own truths why would you listen to words that have been chopped and changed by many generations. If I told you now that you cannot wash as your government says so....would you listen to me? Don't fall into the pit of organised government, make up your own mind, find your own truths. When you choose to enter a system of organised nationalism you give up the very things that make you human:

Your right to question!
The quest for knowledge and Truth!

Your not a bad person if you fracture the laws of a government, as long as you uphold certain moral standards. Had this article been written in the past...I may be well be burning on a stack, or stonned to death...All in the name of nationalism!
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
Am I a psychic? Or do I know what your response would be? Whatever it is..I shall await it...:)
Click to expand...

whatsupyall....I kindda forgot...can you remind me why I believe in god again....
 
I kindda forgot...can you remind me why I believe in god again....
Click to expand...

Hopefully because you found meaning to your life from it.;)


My view on religion is this. It should not be taken literaly. There are some great philosophies to be found in the 'stories' of religion. It's a way to find meaning in ones existance where there seems to be none. But it should not be taken literaly, only as stories about life and history. It's when people assert that it should all be taken literaly that problems arise.
 
Originally posted by moonman
Hopefully because you found meaning to your life from it.;)


My view on religion is this. It should not be taken literaly. There are some great philosophies to be found in the 'stories' of religion. It's a way to find meaning in ones existance where there seems to be none. But it should not be taken literaly, only as stories about life and history. It's when people assert that it should all be taken literaly that problems arise.
Click to expand...

3 Questions;

1) Do you mean the scriptures should not be taken literally?

2) Are the scriptures, to you, just stories invented by man or inspired by God?

2) Is it possible to be inspired by literature to the point where it can change your life, and take none of the literature literally?

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Hi guys,

well I seem to have provoked the mob. To begin answering the questions:

whatsupyall: I fully agree with your point. And if I had my way we would all cast off out capitalist shackles and live in forests smoking weed. I do not trust governments, but am I to understand that the title of this forum was political/religious debate? Also through voting I still have my "very small" say on the runnings of my country and the enforcing of laws. Do you think if we all wrote a letter to the Pope and asked him to sell the vatican up to pay off the third world death.......we would have much luck. Lets not loose stray from the point.

To Jan and moonman: What I mean is: The stories in holy books present messages. I can only refer to the bible because it is the "large comic" book I have been exposed to. You can apply this to any holy book. My point is these are NOT HOLY books. They were written by man. We know this as the pen did not pick itself up. I bellieve that the prophets and characters in scripture were real people alive at the time. But they were not enlightened by gOd. They were just people working together to write some fiction. I think what they did was excellent, as it worked.....or else we would not be here debating its validity. I am saying:

The stories of the scriptures are mostly nonsence, however the meaning underlying the the story is what is important. People are too modest to attributes all this progress to an unseen god. We wrote the bible, the Koran, the Kedas etc....HUMAN wrote these books. Our direct relatives wrote these "holy" texts. And nobody can dispute that man is falible. I am saying take away the Saints and prophets, and unseen all powerful gods: and every religion is basically the same. They are not divine, they were created by US!

Try having faith in mankind for a while, I know I can't explain whay I am here on this earth, but I know I am not going to spend my life begging forgiveness from an unseen god. I belive no man can explain to me why we are here.....and that is my faith.

Cheers for your post,

Jus
 
1) Do you mean the scriptures should not be taken literally?

Yes.

2) Are the scriptures, to you, just stories invented by man or inspired by God?

The scriptures are very likely invented by man, I don't think I'm just going to take someones 'word for it' that they were inspired by god. Perhaps they were I can't say they weren't, but unless I find myself inspired by god at some point, I don't think I can just go and trust some book blindly. I must witness 'him' within my self, and don't get me wrong, I am open to 'him' if he comes.

2) Is it possible to be inspired by literature to the point where it can change your life, and take none of the literature literally?

Yes it is. Does a good book have to be based on fact to be inspiring, life changing and thought provoking? No. Does it have to be literal? No way. I find that many books which are too literal are dry and boring and not very inspiring.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top