Redemption questions from the general Christian paradigm

[Tiassa]

I asked someone in another debate, and hence I ask here:

When your time in this life is over, and God calls you home to stand before His judgment, what will your excuse be?

- The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world shall be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer, and yet it will come again. (Revelation 17.8, NAB)

- I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. (Revelation 20.12, NAB)

- Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Revelation 20.15, NAB)

I suppose the other question is: Does it matter what your excuse is?

Explanation of the question

We are all imperfect; as human beings, perfection is only an idea to us, something to strive for. Objectively, we should stop worrying about perfection since it's impossible. But that point aside, does any of it matter?

- Are all forgiven? (e.g. "Loving God theory") Then what does any of it matter?
- Is there a "line" that should not be crossed? (e.g. Daily minor transgressions are forgivable, but mass murder isn't?)
- Do we all realize that the writing of the Book of Life being already-written is a major contributing part of that strange piece of Protestant history called "Calvinism"? What does it matter, if God already knows whether you will be redeemed or not?
- Or is it all deterministic? Is it that no matter what you do, God already knows what will happen? (Note: Comparatively, in metaphor or allegory, some non-theistic perspectives of the Universe result in determinism, as well.)

At any rate, it occurred to me that for all the discussion people do about redemption, no two people advocating Christianity are ever talking about the same thing.

Indulge me, please. I frequently have fits of wondering, "Is this (Christian) serious?" I figure the Sciforums version of inquiry will give me at least some insight.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[TruthSeeker]

We are all saved by grace, and not by works. So your question simply doesn't work at all.

 

[TruthSeeker]

When your time in this life is over, and God calls you home to stand before His judgment, what will your excuse be?

No excuse. Anyone can fool God. And I, personally, wouldn't even need to excuse myself if that was possible.

We are all imperfect; as human beings, perfection is only an idea to us, something to strive for. Objectively, we should stop worrying about perfection since it's impossible. But that point aside, does any of it matter?

Perfection can only come from God. He forgive our imperfections as long as we Love Him (as long as we Love Love).

- Are all forgiven? (e.g. "Loving God theory") Then what does any of it matter?

Yes. The right question is: Does everyone accept taht forgiveness? and, of course, the answer is No.

- Is there a "line" that should not be crossed? (e.g. Daily minor transgressions are forgivable, but mass murder isn't?)

No. Everything is forgiven.

- Do we all realize that the writing of the Book of Life being already-written is a major contributing part of that strange piece of Protestant history called "Calvinism"? What does it matter, if God already knows whether you will be redeemed or not?

It is not already written (not all of it).

- Or is it all deterministic? Is it that no matter what you do, God already knows what will happen? (Note: Comparatively, in metaphor or allegory, some non-theistic perspectives of the Universe result in determinism, as well.)

No. But as time doesn't really exist, in some sense He knows what will happen. Talked about that in another thread... but that's a loooooooong discussion...

At any rate, it occurred to me that for all the discussion people do about redemption, no two people advocating Christianity are ever talking about the same thing.

Depends on which "kind" of Christians. Even those in my church were taugh that we are saved by works. But nowdays, we all know the scriptures much better, so we don't make this kind of mistake. However, there are still many Christians that do.

Indulge me, please. I frequently have fits of wondering, "Is this (Christian) serious?" I figure the Sciforums version of inquiry will give me at least some insight.

Ask me whatever you want...

 

[Tiassa]

I'm never surprised by the diversity of answers

We are all saved by grace, and not by works. So your question simply doesn't work at all.

So who goes to hell? Is it really about market-share and brand recognition? The other day, a couple counties over, some guy broke into a house and sexually assaulted children. Of course, if he believes Jesus will save him, Jesus will.

I find the "grace, not works" argument to lack since nobody can be more specific about the state of grace. You're always welcome to enlighten me on that point, but the general failure of others has been their inability to tie their starry-eyed vision of God's good graces into the rest of what is asserted for Christianity.

Anyone can fool God.

O ... kay.

And I, personally, wouldn't even need to excuse myself if that was possible.

Elaborate, please. I generally try to presume the best in people, so I'm not going to take the worst interpretation of what you've offered, but this sounds suspiciously close to an idea that Jesus denounced. Since it's probably not that idea, then, I'm wondering just what it is you're trying to say here.

Perfection can only come from God. He forgive our imperfections as long as we Love Him (as long as we Love Love).

Such expansive rhetoric. Can you make that any more practical? After all, when all is said and done, Christianity must be put to practice and not merely held in theory.

Yes. The right question is: Does everyone accept taht forgiveness? and, of course, the answer is No

This really seems to render the whole redemption process, well, useless.

No. Everything is forgiven.

How interesting.

It is not already written (not all of it).

Ah. I see. Fair 'nuff.

No. But as time doesn't really exist, in some sense He knows what will happen. Talked about that in another thread... but that's a loooooooong discussion...

It's sounding more and more like redemption is a market-share racket.

Depends on which "kind" of Christians. Even those in my church were taugh that we are saved by works. But nowdays, we all know the scriptures much better, so we don't make this kind of mistake. However, there are still many Christians that do.

Paradox: The "act" of accepting redemption is an act. Is not faith deliberate?

But if acts don't get you into heaven, then why is it harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle? What, a rich man can't believe in Jesus' salvation? (Has anyone notified the televangelists?)

thanx much,
Tiassa

 

[Turduckin]

Originally posted by tiassa
I asked someone in another debate, and hence I ask here:

When your time in this life is over, and God calls you home to stand before His judgment, what will your excuse be?

None

- The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world shall be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer, and yet it will come again. (Revelation 17.8, NAB)

My mind has trouble apprehending the point of view of a being that exists outside of time. I can't see all sides of a cube but I can see it's 2 dimensional shadow. By extension, someone in the next higher dimension can't see all sides of a teseract, but can see its 3 dimensional shadow (a cube) completely. By hyper-extension I view the transcendent part of God sitting at a point of view in an n-dimensional universe where he can see everything that was, is, and will be. That's what I feed my logical mind (to keep it busy and out of the way) about how God can know what I've done and how I've lived my life while I yet have free will to make choice in the 'now'.

- I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. (Revelation 20.12, NAB) - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Revelation 20.15, NAB)

I don't think there are a lot of people living right now who have a working understanding of prophecy (least of all, me). The literal western trained mind sucks at imagery and metaphor. Many Christians take this literally - I learn a lot more from allegories.

I suppose the other question is: Does it matter what your excuse is?]

No. I made the choices I made for the reasons I made them. They will speak for themselves. The very core of my being will be exposed in plain site and visible to me. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Explanation of the question

We are all imperfect; as human beings, perfection is only an idea to us, something to strive for. Objectively, we should stop worrying about perfection since it's impossible. But that point aside, does any of it matter?

Sin is a choice, not a state of being. But how do you make the right choice if you are imperfect? If we are chained to the cave wall and see only shadows of perfection, where does the idea of perfection come from? The Christian believes the idea is a gift of the Holy Spirit of God. One manifestation of that spirit is a still, small voice in the believer telling us when we have sinned. Non-believers have the same gift, but call it 'conscience' and take it to be of themselves. Believers are to recognize the conviction of that voice, not dismiss it or rationalize it, and then truly desire within ourselves not to want to sin again. It is a great gift of God that I can testify to, that he will then begin to perfect us, purify us and make us holier in a way we cannot do for ourselves no matter how hard we try or how bad we want it. I see it in my mind as standing in a pool full of mud, trying to clean the mud off with the only thing I have to work with.. mud. I need somebody standing outside the pool with a hose in their hand to spray water at me. The more we become touched by the purity of the Holy Spirit and begin to recognize perfection, the more we see sin in our lives by comparison. Eventually, we recognize the impulse to sin almost continuously: each time we feel those errent appatites or urges that we wouldn't admit to in public, or when someone cuts us off, flips us the bird, says something hurtful or yada yada yada and on and on. So the main effect of sanctification is to make us, as individuals, realize how fundamentally broken we are, and how much we need to rely on God in order to live the life he wants us to lead. This process is called sanctification and occurs only in relationship with God.

- Are all forgiven? (e.g. "Loving God theory") Then what does any of it matter?

If you, as an imperfect being, see that your child wants to learn and you know his heart is in the right place, don't you forgive him when he makes an inevitable mistake? But if the child is willful and disobedient, don't you know that you should discipline him? If you as an imperfect being know these things and can do them, then you can imagine how perfect God's judgement and love would be.

- Is there a "line" that should not be crossed? (e.g. Daily minor transgressions are forgivable, but mass murder isn't?)

MT 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
MK 3:23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
LK 12:8 "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

- Do we all realize that the writing of the Book of Life being already-written is a major contributing part of that strange piece of Protestant history called "Calvinism"? What does it matter, if God already knows whether you will be redeemed or not?
- Or is it all deterministic? Is it that no matter what you do, God already knows what will happen? (Note: Comparatively, in metaphor or allegory, some non-theistic perspectives of the Universe result in determinism, as well.)

I hope I nailed that down earlier.

At any rate, it occurred to me that for all the discussion people do about redemption, no two people advocating Christianity are ever talking about the same thing.

And I'm probably not going to be much help here. Each one of us is a unique combination of gifts and flaws, talents and limitations. Sometimes we are blind to the limitations that blind us. The bible is a huge book and, if the statistics are to be believed, not that many Christians study it seriously. There are still portions of the bible don't speak to me, and there are portions of Christian doctrine that trouble me as well. For myself, I'm deathly afraid of putting my complete faith in God's hand the way we are supposed to, because he might ask me to do something I don't want to do.

Let me know if any of this helped or if it all seemed like gibberish. Please feel free to come back at me with any question or comment

 

[Tiassa]

Well, some of it's gibberish

I'll leave the hyperdimensional aspects to you for now. And while I believe I understood the most part of the rest, I can't help but think that you're helping drive the nails here. It really does seem more and more like cheap market-share politics. All God and Jesus seem to want is adoration and faith. Seems like a stupid reason for a redemption scheme, but that's just my opinion.

However, if this is the condition, I'm happy to invite God to come on over and do His worst. If I'm lucky, I'll go to the fires. If God really wants to torture me to satisfy that awful lust of His, he can always take me to Heaven and force me to participate in His racket. My conscience will eventually explode under such conditions, and my essence annihilate itself.

Judgment Day ought to consist of six-billion games of Three-Card Monty.

I don't deny the possibility of what you have offered. But it makes Christian faith seem more and more inconsequential in itself, and thus psychotic in the faithful.

And that is what puzzles me the most. It seems an awful silly reason for that many people being that annoying that much of the time. I'd love to run your ideas by Lon Mabon or Pat Robertson or some-such. It would take the gas out of their bags.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Jenyar]

Salvation is a sword that cuts both ways. The choice is the act is the faith. Acceptance is an act. But so is mercy. Jesus died in my place, and I will rise with Him. I understand Jesus to be the "book of life". And Jesus died for our sins past, present and future. In that sense, you can decide whether your name is/was/will be written in the book. Until death, that is - when you will be confronted with all the truth, and will be unable to deny God anymore. That is when your life will be exposed as either true or a lie.

As I have explained before, blasphemy against the Spirit is deliberately setting out against God. "Works" are acts of faith showing how you identify with Jesus. God has identified with us through Jesus, and we identify with God through the Holy Spirit.

So who goes to hell? Is it really about market-share and brand recognition? The other day, a couple counties over, some guy broke into a house and sexually assaulted children. Of course, if he believes Jesus will save him, Jesus will.

If he repents and proves his repentance, yes, he might be saved. Otherwise there would have been no hope for any of us. But God knows his heart and his sincerity. Fortuanetly, that is for God to judge and not for you or me.

Since God is the one raising you from the dead - He deserves our adoration and faith. We cannot and do not earn it. Through grace I have learned that everything comes from God, except that which doesn't come from God. Therefore I have everything to thank Him for, except those things that separate me from Him.

Tiassa, I don't know where you find that God tortures those who go to hell. I'd like to know where you get this interesting piece of dogma from.

 

[Tiassa]

Jenyar--I get it from Christians

Tiassa, I don't know where you find that God tortures those who go to hell. I'd like to know where you get this interesting piece of dogma from.

I get it from Christians.

Ask an Irish Catholic, for instance. Preferably one who is old enough to have heard mass in Latin and studied at a boarding school.

Ask an born-again, especially one who likes Chick propaganda and other simple-minded faith.

Ask a "community church" pastor; I've found a good deal of them still teach fire and brimstone.

Ask a charismatic.

Look through American history--it's part of our cultural amalgam (cf--"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", delivered by Jonathan Edwards at Enfield, Connecticut, 8 July, 1741. It's an American theological standard that gets rehashed in literature and history programs.)

Ask a televangelist; after all, as ridiculous as those folks are, they are part of a massive multibillion-dollar industry. There's money to be gained from fear. And the promise of power.

I get my ideas about Christianity primarily by reading the Bible, discussing such ideas with Christians, and studying Christian history.

Good enough for ye?

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Live4Him]

Originally posted by tiassa

When your time in this life is over, and God calls you home to stand before His judgment, what will your excuse be?

I expect that I won't be answering the judge. Jesus will be in my place.


I suppose the other question is: Does it matter what your excuse is?

Nope. Either Jesus is your advocator, or your out.


Are all forgiven?

It depends upon what you mean by "all". All whose name is in the Book of Life will be forgiven. Those who don't won't be. However, it isn't because they are not eligible for forgiveness, but they have rejected it.


Is there a "line" that should not be crossed?

Yes. Unfortunately, all have already crossed it. You are either perfect, or you're in trouble. In that case, the only hope is Jesus.

What does it matter, if God already knows whether you will be redeemed or not?

God is timeless. As such, when He looks at a person, he sees them BEFORE they are conceived, and at the same time, He sees them when they are old/gray, and even dead.

However, this system was created with certain boundaries. One of these boundaries is time. We, being within the system, are also bound by time. We don't know if we will become a Christian, until the day we make the decision (if that ever happens).


Or is it all deterministic?

See the above.

 

[TruthSeeker]

tiassa,

So who goes to hell? Is it really about market-share and brand recognition? The other day, a couple counties over, some guy broke into a house and sexually assaulted children. Of course, if he believes Jesus will save him, Jesus will.

I find the "grace, not works" argument to lack since nobody can be more specific about the state of grace. You're always welcome to enlighten me on that point, but the general failure of others has been their inability to tie their starry-eyed vision of God's good graces into the rest of what is asserted for Christianity.

What many Christians are not aware about is that eventhough there is grace, their actions will have bad consequences to them. The law of sowing and reaping is still on...

And it's completly impossible for a true Christian to do such thing. If a "Christian" do it, than s/he is certainly a false teacher.

Elaborate, please. I generally try to presume the best in people, so I'm not going to take the worst interpretation of what you've offered, but this sounds suspiciously close to an idea that Jesus denounced. Since it's probably not that idea, then, I'm wondering just what it is you're trying to say here.

I said that it is not of my nature to like sinning. I don't like sinning at all. So I wouldn't need to excuse myself...

Such expansive rhetoric. Can you make that any more practical? After all, when all is said and done, Christianity must be put to practice and not merely held in theory.

I know that. Unfortunatly, there are many that don't. Many actually prefer to just pray at home. I'm more like an action one. When the time comes that I am prepared I'll do what I was assigned to do...

This really seems to render the whole redemption process, well, useless.

Yes, it does... if you don't accept it. If you do accept, then you get it. We have the free to choose what we want. That's almost the highest gift (if not The highest...).

It's sounding more and more like redemption is a market-share racket.

No, it is the exact opposite. See like that.. God is directing a movie, but He give you the ability to choose what will happen with you. If you wish to change something (asking whatever you want, as long as you have Him within you), then He can do it for you. So He has the power to change as long as we choose. It is kinda like that...

Paradox: The "act" of accepting redemption is an act. Is not faith deliberate?

To accept redemption is an act of faith. It is both an act and faith. As James said...

James 2:17
"17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. "

In this case, the "work" is the acceptance.

But if acts don't get you into heaven, then why is it harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle? What, a rich man can't believe in Jesus' salvation? (Has anyone notified the televangelists?)

A rich man means that he gives nothing away, so he doesn't plant seeds. It also means that he is probably greedy (cause he has too much and don't give anything away). So either way he is toasted and cannot go to Heaven (for the simple reason that he doesn't comprehend that the Kingdom of Heavens is within him, that true joy comes from within and not from material things. Kingdom of Heavens is basically joy.)... Also ther is great joy in giving things away...

 

[ElectricFetus]

Athiest death song

HI HO HI HO Its off to oblivion I go…

 

[Jaxom]

I prefer Riker's opinion myself from Star Trek Generations:

Picard: "...After all, Number One, we're only mortal."
Riker: "Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever."

 

[Jenyar]

Tiassa, I suppose it's like most things in life -
opinion defaults to the people who insults or offends you most.

And I know exactly what you mean: these same people you mention have said that because I haven't "spoken in languages", or "been baptized in the spirit", or "belonged to their church"I haven't been saved. It's sad. However, typical charismatics or born-again Christians tend to have more zeal than knowledge - there's too much emotion involved. That is probably why Timothy said:
1 Timothy 3
6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

The Bible has no use if not to bring the gospel - "good news". The good news is: Nobody needs to "go to hell". Nobody. God doesn't want anybody to be lost. And Christians aren't to judge - they can tell the truth, that those who do not accept salvation fall outside it - but otherwise:
Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no-one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him.
Isaiah 11
...He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;

Ones actions are merely the manifestation of what goes on in your heart and mind. That is by which we are guilty and Jesus has taken the judgement on Himself.

Rather believe the Bible. It would be good if you could point them to these text in the future.

 

[Turduckin]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Tiassa, I suppose it's like most things in life -
opinion defaults to the people who insults or offends you most.

And I know exactly what you mean: these same people you mention have said that because I haven't "spoken in languages", or "been baptized in the spirit", or "belonged to their church"I haven't been saved. It's sad. However, typical charismatics or born-again Christians tend to have more zeal than knowledge - there's too much emotion involved

Jen - it seems difficult these days for anyone to say anything without the chance of stepping on someone elses toes. I'm a charismatic (Assembly of God), but I can't take offense. (My pot-shot at secular humanism is already on record.) Maybe I'm just not a 'typical' charismatic. Its interesting to me that every thread I'm drawn to read has one persons' ideas or beliefs sticking in someone elses craw. It just makes it plain to me how fundamentally broken we all are and how badly we all need salvation - apart from the existance or non-existance of God.

I can't make an attribution for this (there are several possibilities), but someone once said that 'the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference'. I first heard it in connection with the Nazi death camps and how the German people went about their business while the ashes of 10 million were flushed from the ovens. And it seems to be true - if you don't care about something, it means nothing to you. It's not on your radar... You don't care. But in order to hate something you must invest some piece of your awareness, your attention and your emotion.

So the people who are currently wailing on truthseeker care about something - fairness in an unfair world? Justice from a God who is as terrifying as he is loving? a world free of anything mystical so it can just plain make sense? An unlimited line of credit? Tiassa, I would have liked from you a much more detailed critique of the answer I initially gave you, but you gave me the answer that you did, and that's fine. I liked the question you asked and the way you asked it - including biblical references. It feels 'real', like you really were interested in getting an answer you could sink your teeth into. Sorry I couldn't help.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No excuse. Anyone can fool God. And I, personally, wouldn't even need to excuse myself if that was possible.

Truthseeker, I couldn't leave without giving you a special hug and kiss......You have helped me most of all.....Hey, while I'm at it, do you always go around saying that your god is a fool like that.....You wanna wash that mouth before you talk next time...

 

[Jenyar]

I agree, Turduckin - sorry if I offended! I'm surprised at myself actually for making such a sweeping statement. I was proving my own statement when I said opinion defaults to the people who offend you most. It's like a magnet for stereotyping. Of course churches consist of people, and certain churches attract certain people. Scratch the word 'typical'. Quite a few of my close friends and family are charismatic - from non-denominational to His People.

It seems the stronger one feels about something the more wrong everything else seem in comparison Definitions also play a big part - such as what is understood by 'being baptized in the Spirit', etc.

But as you said: As long as we stay humble and don't forget that we all need salvation - and that it doesn't come from our own efforts, but by God's grace.

 

[Turduckin]

Not offended at all, Jen - I find it difficult to avoid the trap of sweeping generalizations. I agree with you that it's all about definitions and personal perspectives. One fact I constantly need to be reminded of is, regardless of how with think we got them, each of us has unique gifts and perspectives to share.

even when we're ranting

 

[The Marquis]

When your time in this life is over, and God calls you home to stand before His judgment, what will your excuse be?

Well, Damn. If you'd simply come down here and told us all you were real, rather than relying on me to trust what some other people said a couple of thousand years ago, you silly bugger, I might have done it all differently.

On the other hand, I might not have. I don't like you much, although that again makes me guilty of believing everything I was told about you. If they were all wrong about you, and you have your own story, then sit down with me, pour us both a drink, and explain to me what you're all about. If I then decide I like you, I'll be a part of all this. If I don't then I'm afraid I'm going to have to be an obstinate bastard and offer the devil my services.

So... What have you got?

 

[TruthSeeker]

Posted by heflores: Truthseeker, I couldn't leave without giving you a special hug and kiss......You have helped me most of all.....Hey, while I'm at it, do you always go around saying that your god is a fool like that.....You wanna wash that mouth before you talk next time...

Are you twisting my words...?

 

[Tiassa]

Turduckin

Perhaps I do owe you a better response. I've been on a posting tear since I got my DSL up and running. In the end, fatigue, disorganization, and trying to occasionally worry about posts I'm weeks overdue to respond to ... equals an inadequate response.

I shall give your post better consideration and get back to you ... hopefully sooner rather than later

thanx,
Tiassa