I. Preface
Once again we find ourselves facing a grim proposition. Rather, I find myself facing a proposition so absurdly macabre that I have no intention of leaving it alone.
This is a difficult thread. The poll can be kept anonymous for those who wish to remain unknown. The subject nature of this thread, however, does not allow such luxury beyond that. That is, participating survivors will necessarily be attached to their user names.
I apologize for this, but find it unavoidable in the face of the proposition.
II. History
In another thread, a curious, restrictive thesis arose describing sexual intercourse as exclusively involving a penis and vagina:
This seems nearly trivial compared to the question that eventually arises. But the first response was to examine the implications of the restrictive thesis:
And perhaps that seems a controversial counterpoint, but if penis + vagina is the only thing that equals "sex", how can one charge a sex crime that doesn't involve both those factors? As I noted at the time, it's not the most elegant question, but it does examine the implications of such boundaries.
The response to that counterpoint seemed simple enough:
Which, of course, distilled the issue even further:
The thing is that sometimes people say something that sounds good in the moment, but also bears problematic implications if the argument is applied in any other context. These implications are the underlying focus of the counterpoint.
And, indeed, this seems like a trivial argument; there are semantic games that can be played. For instance, one could point to rhetoric suggesting anything other than heterosexual vaginal intercourse is mere masturbation and ask if public self-gratification should be a "sex" crime. That is, the idea of sex in terms of conduct instead of intercourse has yet to be explored.
III. Proposition
But that's not where the discussion went. Instead, it arrived at what I find a desperate, macabre assertion:
Now, in my life I have been physically assaulted. I've even been punished for the crimes of being jumped, held down, and beaten. People have stolen from me before. Additionally, I know people who have been attacked and beaten; who have been stolen from; and also people who have been raped, sexually assaulted, and sexually abused.
The understanding of all my life's experience is that no, these events are not the same. They have different degrees of impact on a person physically and psychologically.
But I'm a lucky one: I've never been raped.
IV. Inquiry
So I find myself turning here to sexual assault and abuse survivors, because this is the sort of question that begs an answer:
I've known more sexual assault and abuse survivors than my conscience will cope with. And some of them have been in fights, have been mugged, have seen their cars stolen or homes burglarized. And as far as I can tell, the proposition that these events have the same impact—e.g., "whether it involves genitals or not"—is so inaccurate as to be offensive to many survivors.
But I'm not among them. I don't know. So I can only ask, and hope for your participation and insight.
Thank you.
V. Rules of Participation
Familiar rules apply: Your honest answers are appreciated. Anyone wishing to disclose information is welcome to do so, but I am obliged to remind that this is Sciforums, a place where "decency" is oft-considered a profane word. Members wishing to skew the poll or denigrate the discussion with false answers, accusations that survivors are lying about their experiences, or other undignified behavior are advised to simply stuff it and keep out of the way.
Suspicions of false stories or other concerns should be directed to me via private message.
Violations of these basic rules will be regarded severely.
Once again we find ourselves facing a grim proposition. Rather, I find myself facing a proposition so absurdly macabre that I have no intention of leaving it alone.
someone violating you, stealing from you, and infringing upon your human rights...assaulting you, causing you physical, and/or emotional pain. it's all the same, whether it involves genitals or not.
This is a difficult thread. The poll can be kept anonymous for those who wish to remain unknown. The subject nature of this thread, however, does not allow such luxury beyond that. That is, participating survivors will necessarily be attached to their user names.
I apologize for this, but find it unavoidable in the face of the proposition.
II. History
In another thread, a curious, restrictive thesis arose describing sexual intercourse as exclusively involving a penis and vagina:
"penis + vagina = sex. that's it. anything else is just stupid romanticism."
This seems nearly trivial compared to the question that eventually arises. But the first response was to examine the implications of the restrictive thesis:
If a man were to hold you down and force his erect penis into your asshole, would you argue he should not be charged with rape? See, there's a lot of, shall we say, "misguided" legislators and prosecutors out there who would charge him with rape. But rape is sexual intercourse against one's will. And as it stands right now, one can be charged with sexual assault or rape if they force their penis down your throat or into your asshole.
And perhaps that seems a controversial counterpoint, but if penis + vagina is the only thing that equals "sex", how can one charge a sex crime that doesn't involve both those factors? As I noted at the time, it's not the most elegant question, but it does examine the implications of such boundaries.
The response to that counterpoint seemed simple enough:
"rape is an act of violence, whatever the logistics might be."
Which, of course, distilled the issue even further:
But if "penis + vagina = sex. that's it" is rape no longer a sex crime? I mean, is punching someone in the mouth rape?
The thing is that sometimes people say something that sounds good in the moment, but also bears problematic implications if the argument is applied in any other context. These implications are the underlying focus of the counterpoint.
And, indeed, this seems like a trivial argument; there are semantic games that can be played. For instance, one could point to rhetoric suggesting anything other than heterosexual vaginal intercourse is mere masturbation and ask if public self-gratification should be a "sex" crime. That is, the idea of sex in terms of conduct instead of intercourse has yet to be explored.
III. Proposition
But that's not where the discussion went. Instead, it arrived at what I find a desperate, macabre assertion:
"in a metaphorical sense i guess. i don't come up with these labels, and i don't have a problem with them either. i'm just saying that i think the intent and the outcome is very much the same. someone violating you, stealing from you, and infringing upon your human rights...assaulting you, causing you physical, and/or emotional pain. it's all the same, whether it involves genitals or not."
Now, in my life I have been physically assaulted. I've even been punished for the crimes of being jumped, held down, and beaten. People have stolen from me before. Additionally, I know people who have been attacked and beaten; who have been stolen from; and also people who have been raped, sexually assaulted, and sexually abused.
The understanding of all my life's experience is that no, these events are not the same. They have different degrees of impact on a person physically and psychologically.
But I'm a lucky one: I've never been raped.
IV. Inquiry
So I find myself turning here to sexual assault and abuse survivors, because this is the sort of question that begs an answer:
Rape and sexual abuse survivors:
• Have you ever been in a fight? (e.g., physical assault)
• Have you ever been robbed/burglarized/otherwise stolen from?
• How do the impacts of these events in your life compare to the impact of surviving rape or sexual abuse?
• Have you ever been in a fight? (e.g., physical assault)
• Have you ever been robbed/burglarized/otherwise stolen from?
• How do the impacts of these events in your life compare to the impact of surviving rape or sexual abuse?
I've known more sexual assault and abuse survivors than my conscience will cope with. And some of them have been in fights, have been mugged, have seen their cars stolen or homes burglarized. And as far as I can tell, the proposition that these events have the same impact—e.g., "whether it involves genitals or not"—is so inaccurate as to be offensive to many survivors.
But I'm not among them. I don't know. So I can only ask, and hope for your participation and insight.
Thank you.
V. Rules of Participation
Familiar rules apply: Your honest answers are appreciated. Anyone wishing to disclose information is welcome to do so, but I am obliged to remind that this is Sciforums, a place where "decency" is oft-considered a profane word. Members wishing to skew the poll or denigrate the discussion with false answers, accusations that survivors are lying about their experiences, or other undignified behavior are advised to simply stuff it and keep out of the way.
Suspicions of false stories or other concerns should be directed to me via private message.
Violations of these basic rules will be regarded severely.