Random breeding of dogs.

A

aaqucnaona

This sentence is a lie
Valued Senior Member
I am studying [currently, through books, lectures and documentaries] evolutionary biology [I am actually a student of animation and filmaking]. Reading about domestication and breeding, espectially in dogs made me wonder:
What if 100-150 individuals of all modern breeds and hybrids of dogs were released into a appropriate ecosystem [or national park] and left alone for some time. What kind of changes can be expected in 5,10 years, in 25, 50 and 100?
It would be helpful in understanding gene pools in nature but I could figure out what kind of results would be expected. If u would take this up as a though experiment, what results would u expect?
Would chivavas be naturally selected to be larger? would poodles lose their unnecesary fur? Would the population have less variablity as fashionable breeds die out? Would some breeds speciate as they no longer mate together in nature? Would they we recognised and scientifically named as such?
 
I think they will roughly revert back to a wolf-like body plan and wolf-like behavior, thicker coats and appropriate coloring.
Dogs with short legs or short snouts would probably not survive at all.
You'd probably end up with something like dingos given large enough starting population and time.
 
aaqucnaona said:
What if 100-150 individuals of all modern breeds and hybrids of dogs were released into a appropriate ecosystem [or national park] and left alone for some time. What kind of changes can be expected in 5,10 years, in 25, 50 and 100?
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About 20 years ago there was a show on strays in mexico. I cant remember if it was NOVA, or Nat. Geo, or who did the show but basically they noted:
Two color types, black and tan (light tan, like a yellow lab).
Floppy ears.
Narrowed head and muzzle.
Smaller (40 lb average).
Shorter hair like a lab.

They had followed several generations and noted these attributes became the norm. It was a long time ago so the details escape me now.

Heres an article on Moscow Strays:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/628a8500-ff1c-11de-a677-00144feab49a.html

The article mentions a silver fox study that is a fantastic read also.
 
Yeah, the silver fox study was most informative indeed.

Like Enmos said - they would likely look like Dingos or what are known in the Southern US as "Yellow Dogs".
 
What if 100-150 individuals of all modern breeds and hybrids of dogs were released into a appropriate ecosystem [or national park] and left alone for some time
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They would probably all be eaten by bears, wolves or other predatory animals that already live in the forest. Since these dogs have no idea how to survive in the wild they wouldn't last very long since they don't know what is good to eat as opposed to what makes them sick.
 
milkweed said:
I had forgotten about these guys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Dog
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While those dogs have been there many years now, they learned to adapt but many others did not. To see only this one type of dog that survived only attests to the fact that many dogs never do survive when cast into the wild. Don't forget that the OP said that 150 dogs were released at the same time into a hostile environment so that would be very detrimental to the majority of them.
 
cosmictraveler said:
While those dogs have been there many years now, they learned to adapt but many others did not. To see only this one type of dog that survived only attests to the fact that many dogs never do survive when cast into the wild. Don't forget that the OP said that 150 dogs were released at the same time into a hostile environment so that would be very detrimental to the majority of them.
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Detrimental to the majority? Sure. I can agree with that. Very few wild animals have a high survival rate, let alone a dumped dog. But 150 dogs dumped together, rather than one SOB at a time dumping a solo family pet brings a different perspective to the puzzle. We do have some examples in Mexico and Moscow. And the OP didnt say hostile environment, it was a "appropriate ecosystem [or national park]".

We have coyotes and fox living within city limits. Appropriate ecosystem is wide open to interpretation.

Further reading on the Carolina dog:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0311_030311_firstdog.html
 
cosmictraveler said:
hostile environment
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Indeed, as milkweed said, I meant something like a national park, not, say , savannah or a rain forest. With 150 of each kind, even small or fashion breeds are bound to have a few dozen in their packs. And even if hawks, bears and big canines and felidae prey on these dogs, they can still fill in the niches of foxes, stoates and weasels. With bitches of most breeds on heat every six months, they have a good chance of survival.

And what about the questions is listed like will poodles become more like labradoodles or will chihuahuas get bigger? Will small legged dogs survive at all?

Imo, herders, retrivers and pointers should be the most successful species as all have the stalking, hunting behaviours only they dont kill/eat the prey, something that can change very soon in the wild.
 
My point was that if the dogs released into any forest system would not last long if they were only raised by humans and depended upon humans for everything they got to live. It also depends upon the age of the dogs as well. I truly domesticated dog wouldn't last very long in the wild because it would take awhile to "adapt" to their situation and during that time other predators would surely eat many of them for certain.
 
Some of the Northern working breeds still have strong hunting instincts. I watched my parents female Malamute pounce upon a small bird that flushed out of the willows in front of her. She leaped several feet into the air and took it on the wing.

I have also observed my own Alaskan Husky of years ago eating berries and rosehips when we were out berry picking. I expect they would adapt quite quickly to hunting small mammals such as the voles, mice, ground squirrels, rabbits and grouse which the foxes and coyotes also prey upon.

Many of the breeds that have been bred for the 'pet fashion' industry might not fare so well if they had to compete in this manner, are my thoughts. Medium sized breeds should have an advantage as they tend to be quite agile and would not require as much food for energy, another guess.
 
scheherazade said:
Some of the Northern working breeds still have strong hunting instincts. I watched my parents female Malamute pounce upon a small bird that flushed out of the willows in front of her. She leaped several feet into the air and took it on the wing.

I have also observed my own Alaskan Husky of years ago eating berries and rosehips when we were out berry picking. I expect they would adapt quite quickly to hunting small mammals such as the voles, mice, ground squirrels, rabbits and grouse which the foxes and coyotes also prey upon.

Many of the breeds that have been bred for the 'pet fashion' industry might not fare so well if they had to compete in this manner, are my thoughts. Medium sized breeds should have an advantage as they tend to be quite agile and would not require as much food for energy, another guess.
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I think your right about thinking some breeds will fair better than others. The following video gives some perspective on the issue.

Lacy Dogs in Life After People
 
scheherazade said:
I watched my parents female Malamute pounce upon a small bird that flushed out of the willows in front of her. She leaped several feet into the air and took it on the wing.

I have also observed my own Alaskan Husky of years ago eating berries and rosehips when we were out berry picking.

Many of the breeds that have been bred for the 'pet fashion' industry might not fare so well if they had to compete in this manner, are my thoughts.
Click to expand...

Yep. All of my dogs killed mice and loved hunting for them under the snow. And yes, we had berrie picking dogs also, but that was my own fault for sharing :)

And they learn from each other. So out of 150 dogs, it would only take a couple of bunnie hunters to teach at least some of the other dogs.
 
A great deal would depend on what native canids were also in the area. Do that experiment in Yellowstone, and all 150 dogs will be dead in one winter. The wolves and coyotes in Yellowstone are struggling with each other as it is. I've watched wolves stalk a coyote in the Lamar Valley in the north part of the Park several times. It is likely that the changes observed in the Mexican dogs were due to introgression from coyotes. They are coy-dogs.

Rich
 
Dogs can interbreed with coyotes, so the reversion to wild living may take fewer generations than some might anticipate.

The following video of a coyote in northern B.C. looks to my eye to be a young one that has become habituated to humans by hanging around a lodge or camp, getting handouts and losing the natural fear of man.

Although the video suggests an 'attack', I would say by the body language that this animal is only playing. Feral canines play quite roughly, so the animal is indeed biting the shoe of the videographer, but the creatures does not portray aggression to my eye.

Warning: Coarse language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVE9qfg7yI&feature=related
 
@ scheherazade,
The Coyote should have ordered a rocket from acme.


I think your question may have a different outcome if Food/Water/shelter was provided, and they had to undergo some sort of friendly training.

As it is though it would be the dominant and large breeds that survive, as I cannot imagine a Shih Tzu running down its supper. It would be a sorry state watching the animals all wither and die. They are dependant upon humans.
 
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Nature has provided food/water/shelter for all species that have evolved without our intervention.

What purpose do we serve when we make animals dependent upon us? We select for traits that serve our desires and purposes though they may not serve the best interests of the animal.

I would expect the breeds that would fare the best in this experiment to be the ones that are the least dependent on humans. Then again, one never knows what talents and problem solving skills some dogs may acquire from close habituation with humans. There could be some interesting developments.
 
The outcome would depend on a few things, including the manner of gene action (additive/dominant) among the strains, density in the starting pool, relative fitness, and reproductive isolation. The really aberrant strains - shihtzus, Pomeranians, chihuahuas, and the like - would probably form a partially isolated clique and/or suffer extinction at the paws of their larger conspecifics; extinction would be less likely if they had more success at taking smaller prey animals. I have a kind of intuitive doubt of this but nothing concrete.
 
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