quick question; how many joints in the human body?

[scifes]

for an adult, how many?
and reference please.
most questions sites say it's not fixed and a joint is not well defines, any more professional answers?

 

[Asguard]

for an adult, how many?
and reference please.
most questions sites say it's not fixed and a joint is not well defines, any more professional answers?

how do you define a joint? are you talking about ONLY movement spots or every place a bone is conected to another bone, if thats the case its probably at a guess equal to the number of bones in the body minus 1 (or possibly 2) because the hyoid bone is not conected to any other bone in the body.

 

[Unconcept]

In the broadest sense, there is about 360 joints
http://www.mplsortho.com/faq/

 

[Buddha12]

As many as they can smoke!:m:

 

[scifes]

yeah i found that estimation too, we might now consider moving this thread to religion, cuz i doubt mohammad counted them one by one when he said

Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib: "I heard the Apostle of Allah peace_be_upon_him) say: A human being has three hundred and sixty joints for each of which he must give alms. The people asked him: Who is capable of doing this? He replied: It may be mucus in the mosque which you bury, and something which you remove from the road; but if you do not find such, two rak'ahs in the forenoon will be sufficient for you.." (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab), Book 41, No. 5222)

 

[C.E.O]

answering -islam. org/ Responses /Osama /360joints .htm

I can't post it correctly because I'm still under 20 posts, so I put spaces but I hope you can go to the right link.

 

[Unconcept]

Muhammed wasn't the first one to say that the human body has 360 joints as the Answering Islam page states.
It would be trivial to find this out without modern medicine, human beings have been dissecting each other and corresponding that knowledge for thousands of years, they've been interested to know about the human body and how it works.
Note that the numbers are rough estimates, the number of bones and joints differ between humans, and I think that 360 joints is the number of joints in an adult specifically.

 

[Dinosaur]

The figure of 360 must include some joints which we normally do not consider to be joints. Has anyone found a detailed list of the 360?

I am having a difficulty trying to list 360 joints. Consider the following

On one side of the body: 14 obvious finger joints; no more than 14 toe joints; wrist, elbow, & shoulder; Hip, knee, & ankle.

The above adds up to 34. Multiply by two for the other side = 68.

BTW: After inspecting my own toes, I am not sure how many joints are in the little toe & the one next to it. Perhaps there are less than 14 toe joints.

Most people (including myself) overlook the spine & neck. I suppose each pair of vertebrae should be considered a joint.

Perhaps the wrist, elbow, shoulder, knee, & ankle should count as more than one each due to there being more than two bones involved in those joints.

Does the connection between each rib & the spine count as a joint?​

The above does not seem to result in 360 joints.

 

[Unconcept]

Discovery Magazine seems to disagree with the reference I cited
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul/science-and-islam/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=
"The existence of 360 joints, in fact, is not accepted in medical communities; rather, the number varies from person to person, with an average of 307."
I tried searching for anything peer reviewed about this, and didn't find any.

The figure of 360 must include some joints which we normally do not consider to be joints. Has anyone found a detailed list of the 360?

I found a muslim listing the names of the 360 joints
http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23023

 

[scifes]

answering -islam. org/ Responses /Osama /360joints .htm

I can't post it correctly because I'm still under 20 posts, so I put spaces but I hope you can go to the right link.

could you or somebody else quote the relevent parts of that page here? i can't currently view it.

Muhammed wasn't the first one to say that the human body has 360 joints as the Answering Islam page states.
It would be trivial to find this out without modern medicine, human beings have been dissecting each other and corresponding that knowledge for thousands of years, they've been interested to know about the human body and how it works.
Note that the numbers are rough estimates, the number of bones and joints differ between humans, and I think that 360 joints is the number of joints in an adult specifically.

only adults will face reckoning. so it's logical the number mentioned is for an adult.
however, i've studied 3 years of hogh school biology, and i wouldn't get NEAR 360 if i were to count my joints, just look at Dinosour in post #8, with all his years on a science forum he couldn't get close to that estimation as well.
now, what's even more interesting is(from the aforemntioned link):

Prior to 1995 it was thought that there are 340 joints in the human body. In 1995 a scientific institute proved that the internal ear consists of 10 joints each (made up of cartilaginous matter). Thus 20 joints were added and the discovery was made that the human body consists of 360 joints.

so assuming that pre 1995 stuff is correct, such an estimation is too accurate to be true(as it's explained).

Discovery Magazine seems to disagree with the reference I cited
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul/science-and-islam/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=
"The existence of 360 joints, in fact, is not accepted in medical communities; rather, the number varies from person to person, with an average of 307."
I tried searching for anything peer reviewed about this, and didn't find any.


I found a muslim listing the names of the 360 joints
http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23023

dude, you're good with research, doin it by the book, then again, a couple months here and you won't be giving a damn anymore .

but i question that "avarege", you know they say three statistics professor went out hunting, they found a rabbit, the first one shot 2 yerds to his right, the other 2 yards to his left, the third cried "we got him we got him!!"
so what average is that? that of adults and children? the healthy and the crippled? but anyway it won't really matter. i still see the 360 estimate too close, and in all my search online, as well as the answer i got to my op, there was no 307. i'm sure if i mentioned the hadith before asking the question you would've answered me 307 directly insted of the much widely known 360

 

[Dinosaur]

360 is a very special number, first used by the Babylonians. It has a lot of divisors. It is 60[sup]2[/sup] & the Babylonians had a numbering system based on 60.

I wonder if Mohammed just picked it due to its being a special number & never really had a count. Nobody in that culture would argue with him.

BTW: My spell checker shows both Mohammed & Muhammed. I wonder why the two spellings. Shiite versus Sunni ???

Once the number got into the Koran, many would try to justify it.

It seems to me that counting 20 cartilage joints in the ear is stretching the meaning of joint. Note that some post mentioned a lot of joints in the skull.

Joint seems to be an incorrect word in this context. It is usually used to refer to joining of bones which allow for motion like the elbow & the knee. Another word or some phrase should be used in this context. Maybe:places where two or more bones meet.[/b]

Even with the more general definition, it looks a bit difficult to come up with exactly 360.

 

[Unconcept]

could you or somebody else quote the relevent parts of that page here? i can't currently view it.

What is the Source of Muhammad's belief that the human body has 360 joints?

If Muhammad's statement had been true, the next step of a proper ‘miracle test’ would have to be that we find out whether Muhammad was the first one to say that the human body has 360 joints. Getting this fact right could be amazing or even miraculous only if he had said something new or contrary to general opinion, not if he merely repeated what was a common belief at his time. Thus, although Abdallah didn't deem it important to investigate this question, we will ask: Have others made this claim before the time of Muhammad?

A quick search on the internet yields the answer effortlessly. In fact, we wonder how Osama was able to find his three alleged "scientific sites" without at the same time finding those other pages mentioning "360 joints" that should have made him suspicious. Why did he just ignore those? Roughly 850 years before the time when Muhammad claimed prophethood, we are told that the following was taught in Chinese philosophy:

In the Springs and Autumns of Lü Pu-wei (Lü shih ch'un-ch'iu, ca. 239 B.C.), ...

The next two examples of relations between the cosmos and the body are perhaps two centuries earlier, and are more general. They come from Lü shih ch'un-ch'iu. They are not particularly early in the history of microcosmic correspondences, but rather exhibit their full development in philosophical writing.

Human beings have 360 joints, nine body openings, and five yin and six yang systems of function. In the flesh tightness is desirable; in the blood vessels (hsueh mai) free flow is desirable; in the sinews and bones solidity is desirable; in the operations of the heart and mind harmony is desirable; in the essential ch'i regular motion is desirable. When [these desiderata] are realized, illness has nowhere to abide, and there is nothing from which pathology can develop. When illness lasts and pathology develops, it is because the essential ch'i has become static. ...

(Nathan Sivin, State, Cosmos, and Body in the Last Three Centuries B.C. [For Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies]; bold emphasis ours)

According to Nathan Sivin, this was already common teaching in the third century B.C., i.e. it is apparently documented even earlier. We find that this correspondence is also part of (at least some forms of) Buddhism (Buddha lived roughly 500 B.C.).

Buddhism and the Heaven-Human Relationship

Under Emperor Wu of the Han dynasty, Confucianism was adopted as the official creed of the state. The most influential Confucian thinker of the time was Dong Zhongshu (195?–105? BCE), who in his writings argued clearly and forcefully for the view that Heaven and human beings combine to form a single entity.

In his Chunqiu fanlu or Luxuriant Gems of the Spring and Autumn Annals, in the section entitled "How human Beings Second the Numbers of Heaven," he states: "Human beings have 360 joints because this exactly matches the number of Heaven’s [days]. Their bodies, their bones and flesh, match the thickness of the earth. Their ears and eyes are bright and keen like the qualities of the sun and moon, and in their bodies there are hollows and veins like the configurations of the rivers and valleys."

And in speaking of the forces of the yin and yang, he says: "Heaven too has its moods of joy and anger, and its heart filled with sorrow or delight which second those of human beings. In the ways in which these likenesses match up, we see that Heaven and human beings are one."

These passages are clear examples of the concept of "Heaven and humankind as one" in the thought of Dong Zhongshu. ... (Dialogues on Eastern Wisdom (1), http://www.iop.or.jp/0111/special.pdf, page 47; bold emphasis ours)

And:

The Mystic Law Leads You to Absolute Happiness

... Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism teaches that our existence is identical to the universe as a whole, and the universe as a whole is identical to our existence. Each individual human life is a microcosm. ... There are some 360 joints in the human and they stand for the days of the year. The twelve major joints signify the twelve months. (http://www.gakkaionline.net/ST390/Gongyo.html)

On pages about Martial Arts (which originated in East Asia and are not merely "sports" but are built on this religious/philosophical foundation) one can find that they still teach today:

Chinese Martial Arts ... Chin Na Joint-locking is a useful addition to the Pa-Kua Chang arsenal making use of all 360 joints. Whilst it is practical against an inexperienced fighter ... (http://www.pa-kua-chang.com/training.htm)

However, this number 360 is a mystical one. It has a numerologial significance. It was not derived by counting the joints in autopsies of dead bodies, and it was usually not understood as being scientific information. At the same time period (third century B.C.) when Chinese philosophy speaks of 360 joints of the human body matching the 360 days of the year, various local states were already using a 365.25-day calendar (I received this information via private communication from Nathan Sivin). The number 360 is found in many contexts. A wheel consisting of 360 joints plays a role in the Hindu Vedas (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.21.18). The angle of the full circle is 360°, and the Meccan Kaaba is said to have housed 360 idols [*, *; perhaps one for every day?].

The Muslim sources claim that Mecca was a major trading center. Traders, however, brought not only material goods but also stories and ideas from far-away countries. Given that the "360 joints in the human body" was widely believed in the Far East, there is a high probability that this belief migrated also to Arabia and was either common knowledge or at least known to Muhammad, who himself was a caravan trader for some time of his life. The report that the Kaaba had 360 idols is itself evidence that the number 360 had some significance in Arabia at the time of Muhammad. Given that a considerable number of details from Galen's embryology were taken over by Muhammad (see the article Embryology in the Qur'an), it would not be a surprise to learn that the at least 850 years older belief of 360 joints in the human body was adapted into Muhammad's "knowledge base" in a similar way.

only adults will face reckoning. so it's logical the number mentioned is for an adult.
however, i've studied 3 years of hogh school biology, and i wouldn't get NEAR 360 if i were to count my joints, just look at Dinosour in post #8, with all his years on a science forum he couldn't get close to that estimation as well.
now, what's even more interesting is(from the aforemntioned link):
so assuming that pre 1995 stuff is correct, such an estimation is too accurate to be true(as it's explained).

The pre 1995 stuff is presented without evidence.

dude, you're good with research, doin it by the book, then again, a couple months here and you won't be giving a damn anymore .

but i question that "avarege", you know they say three statistics professor went out hunting, they found a rabbit, the first one shot 2 yerds to his right, the other 2 yards to his left, the third cried "we got him we got him!!"
so what average is that? that of adults and children? the healthy and the crippled? but anyway it won't really matter. i still see the 360 estimate too close, and in all my search online, as well as the answer i got to my op, there was no 307. i'm sure if i mentioned the hadith before asking the question you would've answered me 307 directly insted of the much widely known 360

I'm an ex-muslim, and a deep researcher on the scientific facts in islamic texts, I had done some research before as a muslim and arrived to that medical page and the muslim page that lists the joints, so I had the hadith in mind when I posted, when you brought up that question, I thought I'd do more research and found that discovery magazine article. These numbers could vary according to the experts you ask, for example that medical website states the number of muscles as 640 but look here

The number of muscles in the human body varies from about 656 to 850, depending on which expert you consult. No exact figure is available because there are a variety of opinions about what constitutes a distinct muscle (versus a part of a complex muscle). Also, there is some variability in muscular structure between individuals.

Sources: The American Medical Association Encyclopedia of Medicine, pp. 703-6; Brandreth, Gyles. Your Vital Statistics, p. 17; Cody, John. Visualizing Muscles, p. 5.

 

[bakersdozen]

360 is a very special number, first used by the Babylonians. It has a lot of divisors. It is 60[sup]2[/sup] & the Babylonians had a numbering system based on 60.

I wonder if Mohammed just picked it due to its being a special number & never really had a count. Nobody in that culture would argue with him.

BTW: My spell checker shows both Mohammed & Muhammed. I wonder why the two spellings. Shiite versus Sunni ???

Once the number got into the Koran, many would try to justify it.

It seems to me that counting 20 cartilage joints in the ear is stretching the meaning of joint. Note that some post mentioned a lot of joints in the skull.

Joint seems to be an incorrect word in this context. It is usually used to refer to joining of bones which allow for motion like the elbow & the knee. Another word or some phrase should be used in this context. Maybe:places where two or more bones meet.[/b]

Even with the more general definition, it looks a bit difficult to come up with exactly 360.

Not likely that it was "just picked it due to its being a special number" ... and "Nobody in that culture would argue with him." ??? Are you being serious? Have you ever read his biography? What about the 10 years Muhammad spent being persecuted by his own people for preaching Monotheism (ie: ONE God)? A good source to really learn for yourself is a recently written book by a western scholar who also happens to be an Agnostic Jew (Lesley Hazleton).

At the end of the day it is a matter of faith - you have faith and believe, great, you don't, again, your choice; but don't insult a Man (Much less the prophet of Islam's 1.5 Billion adherents) due to ignorance or propaganda (Propaganda: ...lies told over and over in order to make people accept them as truth).

 

[dude2]

he never traveled to India or china,and the sources claims just he traveled to Syria, Jordan.thesese pleases that he could reach them! so it is easy to any one hates him to claim that he brought these things from another culture!
yes, the prophet Mohammad was the first one who said this,and i am asking answering islam to give me where and which book and page that drs in india said there are 360 joints?
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Every human being from Adam's descendants was created upon 360 mafsil. So whoever magnifies Allah, praises Him, declares Allah's oneness, glorifies Him, seeks His forgiveness, (and likewise whoever) removes a stone, thorns, or a bone from a footpath, or calls to what is right, or forbids what is wrong, will have it counted for him to the number of those 360 digitals. This is because he walks that day and removes himself away from Hell." [Sahîh Muslim (1675)]
from :
http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-bone-and-joint-center-of-seattle-seattle

• http://www.jlquiropractico.com/arthritis/

• http://www.fioricetblog.com/2012/01/joint-pain-treatment-and-tips/

• http://www.sooperarticles.com/health-fitness-articles/joint-pain-treatment-672067.html

• http://www.blurtit.com/q822970.html

by the way:answering islam was exposed by www.call-to-monotheism.com

 

[brucep]

for an adult, how many?
and reference please.
most questions sites say it's not fixed and a joint is not well defines, any more professional answers?

If it takes more than 5 hits before you cavitate it isn't top shelf.

 

[ZeyadRizk]

Hey are you serious! Everyone knows now that there are 360 joints. If you tried here or there you will find the same! prior to that we didn't know about some joints so the number 360 wasn't found. If you said that chinese mentioned it I'll say what is your refrence? A quick google search and you will find that:​

The Stanford reference said:

Heaven has winter and summer and people have cold and hot [ailments]. Heaven has ten days and people have the hands’ ten fingers The year has 365 days; the body has 360 joints

shouldn't he have said 365? why he said 360!?​

and their reference is

Di neijing ling shu 71.2, 446, cf. Wong Ming 1987, 336–338 (French). There is no good English translation of this text.

they said There is no good English translation of this text.
if you search you won't find any other reference but that Stanford's study but you will find:

In the year there is 365 days; human beings have 365 joints

in
1-Sources of Chinese Tradition: Volume 1: From Earliest Times to 1600
university of colombia press

and you will find the same in:​

2-Science and Medicine in Early China and Greece
3-Medicine and Healers Through History
4-Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy
5-Huang Di Nei Jing Ling Shu: The Ancient Classic on Needle Therapy

why mohammed -peace be upon him- didn't say there are 365?
You are cheating yourself!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------BTW

he mentioned some other myths such:

Heaven is round, earth is square;

Sunnah religious scholars such as Ibn-taimiah, Ibn hagr, Al razi, and others (all of them died before 1100 AD before Galileo) said that the earth is collapsed from Quran only! say here https://islamqa.info/en/118698 so
why mohammed -peace be upon him- didn't say it was square!?
You are cheating yourself!
​

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------BTW

Muhammed and mohammed are the same the different that some people use O and the others use U​

-------------------------------------------------------------------

​

 

[Beaconator]

Breaking joints adds cartilage allows for smoother joints just don't pull on your fingers too much they could fall off