Questioning the tree of life?

w1z4rd

Valued Senior Member
Ive got a question to the bio people here with way more info than me... how valid is this research? In laymans terms.. what does it mean?

The issues
The Tree of Life (ToL) is conceived of as a unique representation of the evolutionary relationships between species, depicting the true evolutionary relationships amongst organismal lineages as a single ever-bifurcating pattern . It takes the form of nested hierarchies that are presumed to be the consequences of descent with modification and speciation. All life-forms, past and present, are assumed to have a single place in this one true tree, and all future organisms are also anticipated to find their place as the tree continues to grow.

In the last several years, the increased availability of molecular data from many organisms, especially microbes, has thrown these traditional assumptions into disarray, due to increasing awareness of processes such as lateral gene transfer (LGT), and endosymbiosis, in which one organism becomes part of another. Organisms that acquire genetic resources horizontally as well as vertically violate standard representations of species lineages. A fundamental problem in constructing the ToL lies in establishing the evolutionary relationships between the three domains or superkingdoms (Bacteria, Archaea and Eukarya) and the role horizontal transfer events had in making these groups distinguishable. Such events are not solely a problem for the placement of microbes in the ToL. The blurring of species boundaries by hybridization is well known in plants, fungi and, increasingly, in animals. Genetic flux across all domains of life (such as that facilitated by the cross-taxa dispersal of viruses), plus other processes that produce conflicting phylogenetic signals, demand more complex ways of detecting genealogies than can be captured by a single tree of bifurcating branches.

Molecular phylogeneticists who have directly confronted the issue of the uniqueness of the ToL have found themselves forced to re-evaluate the tree’s epistemological status and downgrade it from a biological fact to a hypothesis that remains unconfirmed in relation to most life and evolutionary history. These sceptical phylogeneticists have questioned selective attempts to use only data that support tree-like patterns, which are always an overwhelming minority of the total data available for prokaryotes, and urged the consideration of non-tree-like representations of evolutionary history, such as webs or networks. Others are more sanguine about the reconstruction of a universal tree and propose strategies for doing so.
http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/egenis/research/QuestioningtheTreeofLife.htm

Does this mean the tree of life is out the window.. or it just needs a redesign?
 
It just means the the tree has sprung a shoot or shoots from the roots. We are still learning about everything so nothing is ever as clear-cut as it appears.
 
There was once a bur oak in a yard on my street that had grown a triangle; two of the large branches from a main stem were connected by a branch from one of them that had fused - completely, not scar-joined but actually inserted, so that merely looking at either join one would assume the branch was from it - to the other.

Given a couple of billion years, that would probably be more common in actual trees. The tree of life is only a century old.
 
The TOL is only a theory as to how humans have gotten to where they are. Theories come and go just like the wind so todays TOL will be tomorrows something else.
 
Theories come and go just like the wind. . . .
No they don't and that's a common misconception. Laymen tend to confuse theories with hypotheses, thanks in no small part to the language of science, which is not a very useful tool for communicating with laymen.

A hypothesis is a possible explanation for something that happens or happened in the natural universe. Hypotheses are tested by the scientific method, using empirical observation, experimentation, reasoning, peer review, and all of our other tools. When a hypothesis has undergone sufficient testing (the degree of sufficiency correlating with the extraordinariness of the hypothesis according to the Rule of Laplace, another of our tools), it becomes true beyond a reasonable doubt. (I borrow the language of the law, because as I may have already said, the language of science seems deliberately designed to thwart communication with laymen.)

At this point the hypothesis has become a theory. The essence of a theory is that its probability of ever being falsified is extremely low. Theories do not "come and go just like the wind."

Occasionally theories are falsified, but it happens so rarely that the canon of science does not come crashing down. What's far more common is that a theory is refined on the basis of data that wasn't originally available. An example is Newton's Laws of Motion. They were integrated into the Theory of Relativity, and have become one component of that theory which, for all practical purposes, remains unaltered except at extremely high velocities.

Hypotheses come and go, but theories are durable. Not eternal, but durable.

The Tree of Life is a durable theory to which some new details are being added.
 
To the OP:

The underlying assumption of the Tree of Life is that everything descended only once, and the most parsimonious (simplest) tree is the correct one. The fewest number of changes to evolve from animal A to animal Z is presumed to be the way it happened. This is done by constructing a tree, using a mathematical formula to find the likelihood that it happened, again, based on an inherently biased set of assumptions, and comparing it to ALL OTHER POSSIBLE TREES. When there are a few species, with a few traits, it is possible to be done by hand. Looking at long genomic sequences makes this a much more arduous task. The real boogaloo, though, is the number of species you are comparing. 20 species means you're looking at least 8*10e21 (8 followed by 21 zeros) DIFFERENT trees.

Limitations in computing power only allow a certain set of these trees to be considered. The statistical considerations for these analyses also have their own set assumptions, which are taken to be true most of the time. Of course, with the vast number of species out there, it's bound to be wrong some of the time.

The underlying assumptions of constructing a tree of life are false in some cases:

The simplest explanation doesn't logically follow as the best one. It just seems that, given what we know about reality, most of the time, the shortest way is the way it happened. Loss-gain-loss of function, for instance, is a well known evolutionary phenomena, though parsimony would rule such a hypothesis as false out of hand (that is, without explicit data, it is deemed unlikely and not considered). Likewise, a A->G->A->T nucleotide substitution is, according to parsimony, less likely to occur than an A->T substitution, regardless of whether or not the A->G->A->T nucleotide substitution really occurred.

The other assumption- descent can only occur once- is being revealed to be not quite true, due to lateral gene transfer. This occurs when DNA from one organism successfully integrates with the DNA of another in a heritable fashion (in the case of multicellular organisms, the germ line must be affected). This is a pretty common phenomena in unicellular organisms, where they transfer large parts of their genome to other phyla. The equivalent for us would be an elephant coming up to you, splicing its DNA into you so that you grow a functional trunk, and all your offspring have a functional trunk.

As it is, this sort of genetic transfer isn't taken into account during tree construction, even though a species can have more than one "ancestor". Per the quoted bit in the OP, this information is simply omitted from the analysis.

It just means the the tree has sprung a shoot or shoots from the roots. We are still learning about everything so nothing is ever as clear-cut as it appears.

Not an apt metaphor.

More like one of the roots got up and switched places with a branch.

No they don't and that's a common misconception. Laymen tend to confuse theories with hypotheses, thanks in no small part to the language of science, which is not a very useful tool for communicating with laymen.

A hypothesis is a possible explanation for something that happens or happened in the natural universe. Hypotheses are tested by the scientific method, using empirical observation, experimentation, reasoning, peer review, and all of our other tools. When a hypothesis has undergone sufficient testing (the degree of sufficiency correlating with the extraordinariness of the hypothesis according to the Rule of Laplace, another of our tools), it becomes true beyond a reasonable doubt. (I borrow the language of the law, because as I may have already said, the language of science seems deliberately designed to thwart communication with laymen.)

At this point the hypothesis has become a theory. The essence of a theory is that its probability of ever being falsified is extremely low. Theories do not "come and go just like the wind."

Occasionally theories are falsified, but it happens so rarely that the canon of science does not come crashing down. What's far more common is that a theory is refined on the basis of data that wasn't originally available. An example is Newton's Laws of Motion. They were integrated into the Theory of Relativity, and have become one component of that theory which, for all practical purposes, remains unaltered except at extremely high velocities.

Hypotheses come and go, but theories are durable. Not eternal, but durable.

The Tree of Life is a durable theory to which some new details are being added.

Well, some underlying assumptions to the Tree of Life make it a best guess. The theory is, indeed, being tested, since assumptions that descent only occurred once is crucial to current tree construction. Otherwise the branches would fuse with themselves.

The theory is that the Tree of Life is a an accurate representation of how life probably evolved, and the hypotheses would be examination of any particular limb. Limbs get moved around all the time, though the underlying idea that this is a tree we're looking at typically goes unchallenged.

To state it another way, our theory is that evolutionary relationships can be represented as a tree, and there is a deductive way to realize that. The hypotheses would be the locations of any particular creatures on that tree, or the structure of the branches.
 
And what was the prevailng theory before the "big bang" theory was unveiled?
One or other variant of the Steady State theory. It was the last great defender of Steady State, Fred Hoyle, who coined the term Big Bang. He meant it to ridicule the idea of the Universe arising from a singularity.
Now can we get back on topic?
 
The "Tree of Life" is a big picture view of a family tree of descent.
Now, a simple family tree of your great-great-grandparents will probably look very tree-like, with only bifurcations (ignoring marriages for the moment). But go back a few dozen generations, and you'll find that branches rejoin when very distant relations marry.

Now imagine a complete family tree, beginning from all our ancestors who were alive say 200,000 years ago. It will be pretty complicated, right? But, you could probably simplify it a bit by grouping people together by location.
From about 10,000 years ago to 200 years ago, for example, you'd find that there was an isolated group of people in Tasmania.
In other locations, you'd find that most family connections stayed in the same thick branch for long periods, with only a few slender tendrils connecting to neighboring regions.

Now zoom out further, and start from all our ancestors who were alive two million years ago. Now you might find great branches which separate and don't rejoin ever, and some which rejoin after hundreds of millennia. In this suggested tree in Wikipedia image for example, Homo Erectus is shown as a separate branch which dies out, while Neanderthals separate for a long time, but partially rejoin later:
300px-Humanevolutionchart.png

Zoom out even further, and the same continues. There is a lot of large scale bifurcation, but there are some rejoinings... the line between species is fuzzy.

This is all from sexual reproduction point of view, of course. As previously mentioned, the picture is different for bacteria.
 
And what was the prevailng theory before the "big bang" theory was unveiled?
As someone else mentioned, it was a steady state. I object to calling these hypotheses "theories" and I think this is a perfect illustration of how scientists confuse laymen with their terminology. Neither the steady-state hypothesis nor the big bang hypothesis has been proven true beyond a reasonable doubt.

A scientific theory is something which has a miniscule probability of ever being falsified. I have never considered the big bang more than an intriguing idea that deserves more investigation. There is a lot of evidence for it, but it's all circumstantial. You have to be very careful before you decide to canonize a hypothesis as a theory, when all the evidence for it is circumstantial.

When we're dealing with the concept of the "beginning of the universe," our very notion of time becomes suspect. Did the universe actually have a "beginning"? Was there time before the universe "existed"? Or is the zero point of the existence of the universe an absolute zero, like temperature, such that any calculations dealing with negative time values will yield only imaginary solutions? I suggest that time should be graphed on a logarithmic scale, so that you can go as far as you want to the left and still not quite hit zero. That would resonate with the difficulty we have analyzing events that happened that long ago. Perhaps time was "passing more slowly" then.
 
Ive got a question to the bio people here with way more info than me... how valid is this research? In laymans terms.. what does it mean?


http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/egenis/research/QuestioningtheTreeofLife.htm

Does this mean the tree of life is out the window.. or it just needs a redesign?

Time for a 'Paradigm shift'..................... suggesting to observe energy as the specimen to address versus the mass.

ie.... a dead body is still all the mass but the life is gone.


The true 'TOL' idea is that life evolved from atoms and energy in time. Such that since the beginning of existence life has evolved.

Think of it as a new born baby, upon birth, just a giggling baby but as words are learned the usable knowledge the child can use to associate increases; assisting in its evolution to society.

Life has evolved since day ONE of existence, the reason it is not understood universally is that the math of evolving 'mass and energy' has a road block within thermodynamics. So the mathematics to prove the evolution of life has never been perfected but the reality to the progression shared by Darwin is as true as comprhending that knowledge evolves.

SO what is the solution........... to re-address energy.
 
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