Question with Boldness

[LIGHTBEING]

I preface my thread with a quote:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I would agree with this statement. If there is a "Judgement Day" I would think that a forgiving god would be inclined to approve our perception given the facts and what he has apparently equipt us with to formulate reasonable and rational opinions in regards to the world around us.

For those who believe in eternal damnation, how is it that you support this concept given that our creator allegedly created our capacity to think and reason in the first place? Is it admirable to accept and embrace the Supernatural even if there is no evidence to support it?

On a side note, I frequently hear Christians and Preachers state that all our Forefathers were Christian and that we are a Christian Nation etc etc but clearly the evidence suggests otherwise. Not that it validates anything one way or the other. I just don't understand what the motive is, specially when it can be falsified. Even if it were true.....why should it have any influence on our beliefs or non-beliefs in the 21st century?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Isn't it rather odd that the Chinese, who invented paper and writing on it never developed a "god" way of society? They never mention anything about god in any of their writings other than their Emperor's way of leading them wherever they went.:shrug:
One would think they would be writing down what god told them if there was a god wouldn't you?

 

[spidergoat]

Isn't it rather odd that the Chinese, who invented paper and writing on it never developed a "god" way of society? They never mention anything about god in any of their writings other than their Emperor's way of leading them wherever they went.:shrug:
One would think they would be writing down what god told them if there was a god wouldn't you?

I hate to contradict you, but I have a book on Eastern religions, and many of them are both Chinese and theistic in nature.

Even if it were true.....why should it have any influence on our beliefs or non-beliefs in the 21st century?

Because religious people see the founders as disciples and the constitution as the Bible. It's a kind of secular fundamentalism that says whatever the founders intended should be fixed in time.

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Because religious people see the founders as disciples and the constitution as the Bible. It's a kind of secular fundamentalism that says whatever the founders intended should be fixed in time.

They do? They certainly tend to disagree with the Separation of Church and State. I just don't understand the connection on how it can possibly validate one's own belief. IOW - Thomas Jefferson was a devote Christian (which he was not) so that proves my understanding of the Supernatural to be correct?

 

[spidergoat]

Well, just like the Bible, they don't believe in the actual thing (or read it), but in the culturally accepted interpretations of it.

 

[scheherazade]

Given that the only observable constant is 'change', it does beg the question of why we venerate the notion of 'unchanging' and strive so hard for permanence as we continue to seek 'the truth'.

Everything we observe appears to be in a state of constant flux, so I would hypothesize that while 'the truth' may not be changing, certainly our perceptions of it do.

In the 21st century, are we finally evolving beyond a need for beliefs? Or in a crisis, do we cling to them more strongly than ever?

The time of testing seems to be drawing nigh.....most of it of our own making, IMO.

 

[cosmictraveler]

I hate to contradict you, but I have a book on Eastern religions, and many of them are both Chinese and theistic in nature.

I'm talking about where the Emperor was located not elsewhere . The Emperor never had anything that I've ever seen mention god when they wrote about him. He was the ultimate ruler and nothing else was ever brought up about any other deity during their stay in power. Perhaps there were places outside China where Chinese people were influenced by other religions thousands of years later. If you have any written material that shows that a god was being talked about during the first few thousand years of Chinese history I'd be more than happy to review them but like I said I've never seen anything on written paper about anyone other than the Emperor.

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Is it a reasonable question? Would god not be forgiving and understanding of our unbelief which is a direct consequence of his creation?

 

[Adstar]

I preface my thread with a quote:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I would agree with this statement. If there is a "Judgement Day" I would think that a forgiving god would be inclined to approve our perception given the facts and what he has apparently equipt us with to formulate reasonable and rational opinions in regards to the world around us.

For those who believe in eternal damnation, how is it that you support this concept given that our creator allegedly created our capacity to think and reason in the first place? Is it admirable to accept and embrace the Supernatural even if there is no evidence to support it?

What does Eternal damnation have to do with the existence or otherwise of God?.. Nothing.

To what extent does ones support or otherwise as to the existence of eternal damnation have on it being reality or not?.. Nothing.

On a side note, I frequently hear Christians and Preachers state that all our Forefathers were Christian and that we are a Christian Nation etc etc but clearly the evidence suggests otherwise.

This is an international forum. So why don't you put a name to this nation.

As for me there has never been a Christian nation on earth. The only time a Christian Kingdom will exist on earth is after the return of the Messiah Jesus.

Not that it validates anything one way or the other.

All of your points up till now validate nothing anyway.

I just don't understand what the motive is, specially when it can be falsified. Even if it were true.....why should it have any influence on our beliefs or non-beliefs in the 21st century?

Motivation for what? That some nation was Christian?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LIGHTBEING]

What does Eternal damnation have to do with the existence or otherwise of God?.. Nothing.

If God does exist, then probably nothing. Eternal damnation is a human concept. But it is very relevant in regards to the belief in God.

To what extent does ones support or otherwise as to the existence of eternal damnation have on it being reality or not?.. Nothing.

Reality being a relative term. It certainly is not nothing to believers. Eternal damnation is very real to them.

This is an international forum. So why don't you put a name to this nation.

Thomas Jefferson was one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence and was the 3rd United States President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

As for me there has never been a Christian nation on earth. The only time a Christian Kingdom will exist on earth is after the return of the Messiah Jesus.

OK, but for your reference the US is known around the world as a Christian nation. It's predominately Christain and is frequently said to have been founded on Christian Principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

All of your points up till now validate nothing anyway.

My points were not meant to validate anything. I think I even said it doesn't validate anything..............

Motivation for what? That some nation was Christian?

I'll state it again:

I frequently hear Christians and Preachers state that all our Forefathers were Christian and that we are a Christian Nation etc etc but clearly the evidence suggests otherwise

What is the motivation for this?????

 

[Adstar]

If God does exist, then probably nothing. Eternal damnation is a human concept. But it is very relevant in regards to the belief in God.

Where is your irrefutable evidence that eternal damnation is an exclusively human concept?

Reality being a relative term. It certainly is not nothing to believers. Eternal damnation is very real to them.

Of course it is. I believe it. But my belief and your disbelieve have no bearing on it existing or not.

Thomas Jefferson was one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence and was the 3rd United States President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

I couldn't care less who the third president of the usa was. What’s that got to do with anything?

OK, but for your reference the US is known around the world as a Christian nation. It's predominately Christain and is frequently said to have been founded on Christian Principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

Well that’s wrong. Plain and simple. If the usa was a Christian nation then everyone in the usa would be Christians. And that is obviously Not So.

So why do you even post this guff.

My points were not meant to validate anything. I think I even said it doesn't validate anything..............

Yet you're willing to state.

For those who believe in eternal damnation, how is it that you support this concept given that our creator allegedly created our capacity to think and reason in the first place? Is it admirable to accept and embrace the Supernatural even if there is no evidence to support it?

You made the absolute statement that there was absolutely not evidence to support it. So it's not a case of maybe it exists or maybe it does not. You are stating that it does not exist.

I'll state it again:

I frequently hear Christians and Preachers state that all our Forefathers were Christian and that we are a Christian Nation etc etc but clearly the evidence suggests otherwise

What is the motivation for this?????

Maybe they believe it and seek to maintain high influence of there religion upon the society of the usa. I don't know. Why don't you go onto a forum with a lot of religious people based in the usa and ask them.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Where is your irrefutable evidence that eternal damnation is an exclusively human concept?

I don't have irrefutable evidence nor do I need it. I can make a reasonable conclusion since no human has ever been there, has not once provided evidence for it and it violates the Laws Of Physics. I'm sure you would be inclined to say that the Land of Leprechauns on the other side of the rainbow is a human concept and does not exist but where is your irrefutable evidence?

Of course it is. I believe it. But my belief and your disbelieve have no bearing on it existing or not

.

Nor did I say it did. Please stay relevant.

I couldn't care less who the third president of the usa was. What’s that got to do with anything?

riiiggghtttt...ummmmm you were the one who asked me what nation I was referring to....so I provided you with some insight.

Well that’s wrong. Plain and simple. If the usa was a Christian nation then everyone in the usa would be Christians. And that is obviously Not So.

No it's not. The US is generally known as a Christian nation built on Christian Principals - plain and simple. It's silly for you to even argue that point. Would you also argue that the Islamic Republic of Iran is not a Muslim Nation since all Iranians are not Muslim?

You made the absolute statement that there was absolutely not evidence to support it. So it's not a case of maybe it exists or maybe it does not. You are stating that it does not exist.

I'm stating that the evidence does not exist. If it does, show it to me. Please try to stay relevant to the OP. I'm specifically asking believers to explain their position on the concept of eternal damnation and why they accept the idea of God sending non-believers to this place even though our creator allegedly created our capacity to reason in the first place - WHETHER OR NOT IS REALLY EXISTS.

Maybe they believe it and seek to maintain high influence of there religion upon the society of the usa. I don't know. Why don't you go onto a forum with a lot of religious people based in the usa and ask them.

Thank for the suggestion........

 

[Jan Ardena]

Is it a reasonable question? Would god not be forgiving and understanding of our unbelief which is a direct consequence of his creation?

I think that just as every action we perform contributes to our future while living, it prepares our destination after this life ceases. In that way, we decide our fate. God doesn't want us to suffer so in all societies human beings are given the oppotunity to be relieved of suffering, no matter where, or when they are. That would be predicted if there was a beneovolent, loving God.

The idea of burning in hell for all eternity, because you don't believe in God isn't supported by any scripture I've read.
Although in the Srimad Bhagavatam it does state that there are eternally conditioned souls (beings) (demons), and these beings occupy the various hellish planets that exist within the universe.
But life for them is no more, or less pleasurable than it is for us materially speaking, they still eat, sleep, and have sex just like all the creature in the universe.
The difference between them, and the heavenly gods is that they operate in a mode of comeplete ignorance, while the mode of goodness in prevalant in the upper planets.

jan.

jan.

 

[Adstar]

I don't have irrefutable evidence nor do I need it. I can make a reasonable conclusion since no human has ever been there,

Where is you irrefutable proof that no human being has been there... No you have no irrefutable proof that’s just a statement of what you wish to be true not what you know to be true.

has not once provided evidence for it and it violates the Laws Of Physics.

The Laws of Physics are in operation within the universe. What makes you assume Hell is in this universe?? No you only assumed that again.

I'm sure you would be inclined to say that the Land of Leprechauns on the other side of the rainbow is a human concept and does not exist but where is your irrefutable evidence?

Of course i agree that Leprechauns on the other side of the rainbow is a human concept. Name one person who puts forward that there are these Leprechauns on the other side of the rainbow??? If not then your point is totally irrelevant to the existence or otherwise of God. It would be irrelevant even if you did find someone.

Once again provide irrefutable evidence that God does not exist..

.

Nor did I say it did. Please stay relevant.

Stay relevant??? Well most of what you have put down so far is irrelevant. How about you make a statement that is relevant for once.

riiiggghtttt...ummmmm you were the one who asked me what nation I was referring to....so I provided you with some insight.

Oh i had a fair idea what nation you where referring to. Only a self centred american who thinks the world revolves around their nation comes out and makes a statement without identifying their nation and automatically assumes in an arrogant manner that everyone will know who they are talking about. I was just making you aware of yourself.

No it's not. The US is generally known as a Christian nation built on Christian Principals - plain and simple.

What.... Why is it when ever i see a debate in here about usa being a christian nation they always post how the usa was set up originally as a non religious nation?? I wish you atheists would make up your minds. Or are you so fixed on opposing anything a Theist states that you will take any position as long as it is opposing what ever the current Theist you talking with thinks???

It's silly for you to even argue that point. Would you also argue that the Islamic Republic of Iran is not a Muslim Nation since all Iranians are not Muslim?

Yes.

It is not a true islamic nation. It is not waging jihad against the infidels. It should be in a permanent state of war with all nations in the world that have non-believers in them. If it where true to islam

I'm stating that the evidence does not exist. If it does, show it to me. Please try to stay relevant to the OP. I'm specifically asking believers to explain their position on the concept of eternal damnation and why they accept the idea of God sending non-believers to this place even though our creator allegedly created our capacity to reason in the first place - WHETHER OR NOT IS REALLY EXISTS.

YOU HAVE NOT COME FORWARD WITH ANY REASONING YET THAT IS DOES NOT EXISTS.

Thank for the suggestion........

right back at you.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LIGHTBEING]

I think that just as every action we perform contributes to our future while living, it prepares our destination after this life ceases. In that way, we decide our fate. God doesn't want us to suffer so in all societies human beings are given the oppotunity to be relieved of suffering, no matter where, or when they are. That would be predicted if there was a beneovolent, loving God.

Jan - What do you mean by given the opportunity to be relieved of suffering?

The idea of burning in hell for all eternity, because you don't believe in God isn't supported by any scripture I've read.

What scripture are you reading? There are numerous verses in the Bible that "seperates the wicked from the righteous" and throws them into "a fiery furnace" or "eternal fire".

Although in the Srimad Bhagavatam it does state that there are eternally conditioned souls (beings) (demons), and these beings occupy the various hellish planets that exist within the universe.

Do you subscribe to Hindu doctrine? I was speaking specifically about Christian doctrine and ideology.

 

[Jan Ardena]

LIGHTBEING,

Jan - What do you mean by given the opportunity to be relieved of suffering?

Relieved of old age, disease, and death.

What scripture are you reading? There are numerous verses in the Bible that "seperates the wicked from the righ,teous" and throws them into "a fiery furnace" or "eternal fire".

I tend to read all the scriptures, the main one being Bhagavad Gita.
But I also read the bible. And can you show the texts you speak of so we can examine them closely?

Do you subscribe to Hindu doctrine? I was speaking specifically about Christian doctrine and ideology.

I know you was, and I think that is NOT to your benefit.
If by ''subscribe to Hindu doctrine'' you mean do I accept the scriptures generally thought of as Hindu scriptures, then yes, you can count me in.


jan.

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Where is you irrefutable proof that no human being has been there... No you have no irrefutable proof that’s just a statement of what you wish to be true not what you know to be true.

Nor do I need it for the basis of this of this thread..............

The Laws of Physics are in operation within the universe. What makes you assume Hell is in this universe?? No you only assumed that again.

OK, let's assume Hell does exist in another universe, how does that change my OP in anyway? You are missing the point. On a side note, one could make a very good arguement that the Hell depicted in the Bible is a physical place and must exist in this universe or one very similar to it guided by a similar set of Laws.

Of course i agree that Leprechauns on the other side of the rainbow is a human concept. Name one person who puts forward that there are these Leprechauns on the other side of the rainbow??? If not then your point is totally irrelevant to the existence or otherwise of God. It would be irrelevant even if you did find someone.

It's funny how there is a double standard. Yes, many people unfortunately still do infact believe in Leprechauns, most likely influenced by Celtic religion.

Leprachaun watch site:

http://www.irelandseye.com/leprechaun/webcam.htm

Here is a bar owner that believes he has Leprechaun remains.

http://video.syfy.com/shows/destina...alks-into-a-bar----destination-truth/v1207325

The relevance of my point is that your logic is faulty. In one breath you say I need irrefutable evidence otherwise I'm just a wishful thinker. In the same breath you agree that Leprachauns do not exist. Well I direct your sentiment back onto you.

Why do you wish that Leprachauns do not exist? Why do you hate them so much? Where is your irrefutable evidence that they do not exist? I hope this example paints a clear picture for you.

And again, of coarse my example does not prove or disprove God but that is not the basis of my OP. But feel free to replace the word Leprachaun with the word Zeus or Catalan witches or Humpty Dumpty to drive home my point in response to yours.

Once again provide irrefutable evidence that God does not exist..

My point was never to challenge the existence of God....please follow along.

Stay relevant??? Well most of what you have put down so far is irrelevant. How about you make a statement that is relevant for once.

Ummmm, All of my post are related to my OP. For some reason you keep deflecting to existence or otherwise of God or reality or irrefutable evidence.

Oh i had a fair idea what nation you where referring to. Only a self centred american who thinks the world revolves around their nation comes out and makes a statement without identifying their nation and automatically assumes in an arrogant manner that everyone will know who they are talking about. I was just making you aware of yourself.

That was an honest mistake. You don't even know me yet you result to attacking my character. That's class right there. Bravo.

What.... Why is it when ever i see a debate in here about usa being a christian nation they always post how the usa was set up originally as a non religious nation?? I wish you atheists would make up your minds. Or are you so fixed on opposing anything a Theist states that you will take any position as long as it is opposing what ever the current Theist you talking with thinks???

I don't know what you mean by how the usa was set up originally as a non religious nation - why don't you post some examples? Maybe they were referring to The Constitution - The Separation of Church and State, however this had/has no influence on Christianity or any other religion in our society.

Yes.

Right.....

It is not a true islamic nation. It is not waging jihad against the infidels. It should be in a permanent state of war with all nations in the world that have non-believers in them. If it where true to islam

OK, so perhaps they should change their official name then ey? Is that to say a Muslim is not a true Muslim unless they are waging jihad against the infidels?

YOU HAVE NOT COME FORWARD WITH ANY REASONING YET THAT IS DOES NOT EXISTS.

Nor do I need to. I don't think you understand the basis of this thread. You have not contributed anything of value. Please move along.

 

[wellwisher]

I like to question everything with boldness. If you are an atheist and believe in this, that means that even the atheists need to question atheism, since atheism is about being rational and not about memorizing.

For example, there are plenty of irrational atheists therefore the claim of atheists being guided by science and reason is not even valid. That is for recruitment; It is like saying if you become an atheist you will be a rational scientists. But the fact remains there are many irrational atheists so a more realistic definition is anyone can become an atheists no matter how compulsive and irrational.

Let us look at the science approach of atheism, when it applies it principles to religion, Atheist science seems to use selective datawhen it makes religious claims. The curve is never through all the data, since I have never see all the possible data which includes postive things in the bible. Is atheist science based on cheating? Is this due to lack of ability or political games?

 

[spidergoat]

What's the selective data?

 

[Dywyddyr]

since atheism is about being rational

False. "Atheism" is not "about" anything. It's a lack of belief.

For example, there are plenty of irrational atheists therefore the claim of atheists being guided by science and reason is not even valid.

Who makes that claim?

That is for recruitment

Wrong.

Let us look at the science approach of atheism, when it applies it principles to religion, Atheist science seems to use selective datawhen it makes religious claims.

Give examples.
There's no such thing as "atheist science" just science.

The curve is never through all the data, since I have never see all the possible data which includes postive things in the bible.

Bull. You first have to show that the "data" in the bible is actually data.

Is atheist science based on cheating? Is this due to lack of ability or political games?

Like you're playing with your twisting of words? Is that a lack of your own ability or a game?