Puppets..

[SnakeLord]

In the few years that I have been on this forum I have probably seen countless threads concerning human free will. The standard argument is that if god knows everything, we don't have free will. While for now I will not comment on those charges, I would like to focus on other aspects of free will and god.

I doubt there is a religious person here that would not allude to certain godly acts that hinder or prevent free will. Classic examples would include Lori's "miraculous testicle cream" and Woody's "miraculous job offer". While we could argue semantics, indeed questioning why god would rather help Woody earn $3.50 an hour than save a bunch of tsunami victims, or why god would rather provide Lori with testicle cream for a back rash instead of curing all children that are suffering from leukemia, I would still rather focus on another aspect of humans and free will.

Now, if everyone could kindly turn to Exodus and the case of the ten plagues. It can be stated from the text that the Pharoah was a stubborn old mule. Several times indeed he refused to let Moses people go. However, in the later plagues we see the Pharoah relent and yet..

It is god that makes the plagues continue and the slaves remain slaves:

ex 10:20 'but yhwh made pharoah stubborn..'

ex 10:27 'but yhwh made pharoah stubborn..'

ex 11: 10 'but yhwh made pharoah stubborn..'

ex 14:4 "I shall then make the pharoah stubborn.."

My question, and the point of this thread, is how do I know, how do any of us know that it is not god making us stubborn? Can any religious person out there give me a substantial and decent answer to that?

I have been an atheist since birth, and know all too well that regardless to what anyone ever says, I can never be a religious man. So, how can you justify that my atheism is because of me and my free will, and not god making me stubborn - and thus removing my free will?

"For what reason would god do that?" You might ask. The answer can be found in exodus 14:4 -

"I shall then make pharoah stubborn and he will set out in pursuit of them; and I shall win glory for myself at the expense of pharoah and his army"

So, I must conclude that it is entirely possible that myself, and all atheists, are merely puppets on god's string - designed to somehow make him look better.

Are we being led to our demise just as pharoah was? Do I have free will, do I have a choice in the matter, or is god giving himself glory by leading me to a pit of death merely for kicks?

Any decent answers?

 

[Lil Light Foot]

I think we all know it would be easier to argue that we are but puppets, but then you have to go back to does God exist? Why would he create those of us who don't believe in him? Surely, if the bible is correct, then we will go to hell for not believing, why would he intentionally create people to send to hell?
I don't think you can get a definitive answer to this, how can you prove free will, or determinism? I have had that arguement, and it was argued that you have just been conditioned into your responses, choices etc.
It could however be argued that God loves his children, and wouldn't do such a thing, but then you have to think about all those people who die tradgically. Then again, they could just have been evil people in a bad life, and be paying for their bad karma, all depends on the God and the beliefs.
You could spend hours going round in circles with this, it's nice to believe we have free will, but then again, the determinist view means you can takes some of the weight of your shoulders, it's so bad that you did that, God made you like that.

 

[Woody]

SL,

To make matters more confusing, even christians don't agree. There are three positions:

Arminianism -- Man always has a free will. Christians are free to lose their salvation. Here's a forum that will debate you on free will until time ends. (I've already tried debating them, some of the administrators are pastors).Click Here for arminian forum. By the way I just scanned the forum, and it looks like they have an evolution debate thread going. Evolutionists are just philosophers according to them, and there are mountains of creation evidence according to them. Happy hunting!

Salvation by Grace -- Humans have a free will until they decide to be christians, then their free will is surrendered for eternity (fundamentalist position)

Calvinism -- Man never has a free will but all actions are predestinated.

 

[c7ityi_]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

 

[Woody]

SL said:

Are we being led to our demise just as pharoah was? Do I have free will, do I have a choice in the matter, or is god giving himself glory by leading me to a pit of death merely for kicks?

Any decent answers?

And I have endlessly debated Calvinists on the subject, one of whom is a friend.

One of his favorite predestination verses: Romans 9:21-23

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

One of my favorite verses: 2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

From this verse, it is not God's will for anyone to perish.

The question is where does faith come from -- hope, fear, irrationality, weakness, strength?

In the christian view, Faith comes from the Lord. It is something that has to be requested. But if you don't have it to start with, how can you ask?

To break the cycle it requires a look on the inside. The bible says each man is created in God's image, and there is something in man's nature that looks toward that image with either admiration or contempt. If I look at myself with pride, then I look at God's image with contempt, and vice versa. I was honest with myself -- I knew something about my nature needed to change, and I decided I wanted to do what is right -- whatever that might be -- forget the pride. Who's image do I want, mine or God's? I decided I wanted God's image and He changed mine to be like His. That is what repentance is about. The old human nature never goes away in this lifetime, and it constantly battles with the new nature, just like the apostle Paul said it would be.

But every human road is different, for example my sister came to faith by realizing she neglected to do what is right. She didn't go around doing bad things -- she wasn't a bad person, but she omitted the good things she ought to be doing. She is a social work counsellor.

 

[superluminal]

For I am the bringer of salt. I salt thy food. I am the beginning and the end of salinity. And oh ye of little taste - beware, for I am the spice of thine pork and will shake thine shaker to its foundations! Salt be unto you.

 

[Woody]

Pastor Lyndon's quote from the arminian forum:

Free will is simply the God given ability to make a choice between right and wrong within our creation. Adam and Eve made the choice to rebel against God BEFORE they actually fell into sin. This ability has not change from before the fall or after the fall. Did God cause the fall? According to Calvinism God is the cause, since man is incapable. Adam and Eve were not in a fallen sinful nature when they first sinned. Although Eve was influenced by the serpent, Adam was not. So we cannot blame the devil. According to scripture Adam was completely responsible for his own decision. Man's ability to make equal choices between good and evil remains today. The fall did not change this ability. yet Calvinism claims that man is incapable of making certain decisions and God must make them for him. God did not make the choice for Adam and Eve.He only commanded them, as He does with us today.

Quote:
[that moral decisions are strictly uncaused, independent of all our desires]


I have been trying to understand his definition here. First, "moral decisions are strictly uncaused". Uncaused by what? Moral decisions are not caused by God or evil forces. They are "caused" by each individual. So unless I am misunderstanding his point here, he seems to misunderstand free will and the cause of it.
Second, "Independant of all our desires". If moral decisions are independant of all our desires then our desires have nothing to do with our decisions. Yet it was desire for power and being like God that caused Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Desires are not independant, but are directly linked to every moral decision.

Someone else might better define "Arminian" free will. The free will I understand is not based on any teachings from Arminius, Wesley, or Finney. I base my definition on my own thoughts, Early Church teachings, and scripture. I see nothing at all "mysterious" about free will. It is a clear biblical teaching and is supported by hundreds of years of early Church writings, with nothing to the contrary, other than Gnostic heresies.
_________________
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15
Pastor Lyndon

 

[Adstar]

In the few years that I have been on this forum I have probably seen countless threads concerning human free will. The standard argument is that if god knows everything, we don't have free will. While for now I will not comment on those charges, I would like to focus on other aspects of free will and god.

I doubt there is a religious person here that would not allude to certain godly acts that hinder or prevent free will. Classic examples would include Lori's "miraculous testicle cream" and Woody's "miraculous job offer". While we could argue semantics, indeed questioning why god would rather help Woody earn $3.50 an hour than save a bunch of tsunami victims, or why god would rather provide Lori with testicle cream for a back rash instead of curing all children that are suffering from leukemia, I would still rather focus on another aspect of humans and free will.

Now, if everyone could kindly turn to Exodus and the case of the ten plagues. It can be stated from the text that the Pharoah was a stubborn old mule. Several times indeed he refused to let Moses people go. However, in the later plagues we see the Pharoah relent and yet..

It is god that makes the plagues continue and the slaves remain slaves:

ex 10:20 'but yhwh made pharoah stubborn..'

ex 10:27 'but yhwh made pharoah stubborn..'

ex 11: 10 'but yhwh made pharoah stubborn..'

ex 14:4 "I shall then make the pharoah stubborn.."

My question, and the point of this thread, is how do I know, how do any of us know that it is not god making us stubborn? Can any religious person out there give me a substantial and decent answer to that?

I have been an atheist since birth, and know all too well that regardless to what anyone ever says, I can never be a religious man. So, how can you justify that my atheism is because of me and my free will, and not god making me stubborn - and thus removing my free will?

"For what reason would god do that?" You might ask. The answer can be found in exodus 14:4 -

"I shall then make pharoah stubborn and he will set out in pursuit of them; and I shall win glory for myself at the expense of pharoah and his army"

So, I must conclude that it is entirely possible that myself, and all atheists, are merely puppets on god's string - designed to somehow make him look better.

Are we being led to our demise just as pharoah was? Do I have free will, do I have a choice in the matter, or is god giving himself glory by leading me to a pit of death merely for kicks?

Any decent answers?

Are you willing to read a decent answer? i hope so.

Yes it is entirely possible that God can cause one to become blinded so that they cannot come to salvation. But this is only done after that person has personally rejected the will of God on more than one occasion. You cite pharaoh that God made him stubborn to an illogical extent and lengthened the time it took for the jews to be liberated from Egypt. You are right but you have not given the whole truth of the matter. God gave Pharaoh more than once chance to free the Jews but on two occasions he went back on his word to God. Here i will give you the scriptures:




Exodus 8



8Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Entreat the LORD that He may take away the frogs from me and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may sacrifice to the LORD."

9And Moses said to Pharaoh, "Accept the honor of saying when I shall intercede for you, for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only."

10So he said, "Tomorrow." And he said, "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God. 11And the frogs shall depart from you, from your houses, from your servants, and from your people. They shall remain in the river only."

12Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh. And Moses cried out to the LORD concerning the frogs which He had brought against Pharaoh. 13So the LORD did according to the word of Moses. And the frogs died out of the houses, out of the courtyards, and out of the fields. 14They gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. 15But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.


Note it says that he (pharaoh) hardened his heart.



Exodus 8

28So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me."

29Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the LORD, that the swarms of flies may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD."

30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the LORD. 31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.



Once again here we see pharaoh after being given a second chance hardened his heart again against the will of God. Pharaoh was in total rebellion against the will of God.



Exodus 9
8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.



Now we see God deciding to keep pharaohs heart hard to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.

Not only did God harden the heart of pharaoh but he has hardened the heart of other people who have repeatedly rebelled against His will. This will happen in the future also.

2 Thessalonians 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So it is possible that you SnakeLord are blinded by God and blocked from salvation, but not from birth. You would have had to reject the Love of The Truth (The gospel of the Messiah Jesus) by your free will on more than one occasion and show yourself to hate the love being offered to you. Of course i do not know who is or who is not blinded.

2 Corinthians 4 The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[superluminal]

Adstar:
Yes it is entirely possible that God can cause one to become blinded so that they cannot come to salvation. But this is only done after that person has personally rejected the will of God on more than one occasion.

So, the omnipotent, omniscient god gives up on his creations (which he supposedly loves above all else) after a few petty insults or snubbings. What a fucking lameass god. Loser. So Assstar, how many occasions? Two? Three? A dozen? Where are the rules spelled out for god giving up on you? Hmmm? I think you are full of jesus dung.

All Suck the Asshole of Days