prove to me that god is real

[KennyJC]

cause the odds of this planet being here with all the elements need to sustain our fragile and insignificant existance are like what, 1 in 150 or 200 million?

And the odds of this planet being here with all elements to sustain our fragile existence with an intelligent being as it's creator... would be more likely?

like it says in the bible, it's better to believe by faith then by proof.

Why is that?

If it's better to believe by 'faith' then why do theists constantly try to find proof against evolution and other biological discoveries that apparently diminish the role of an intelligent creator?

They only say it's better to believe with 'faith' rather than evidence because they have no evidence. It's like ugly people saying 'beauty is only skin deep' or poor people saying 'money can't buy happiness'.

 

[Cris]

Rickie,

Welcome to sciforums.

that's kinda funny, cause not a single "non-believer" has been able produce proof against

You'll not find many non-believers who claim that gods do not exist, so there would be nothing for them to prove.

OTOH all theists positively assert with conviction that a god does exist. The onus is most definitley upon the claimant to prove their case.

 

[Godless]

that's kinda funny, cause not a single "non-believer" has been able produce proof against

The onus of evidence is created by the party stating a claim. Thus an atheist has to question your sanity, if you keep believing in 2100 year old dogma with out a hint of evidence! :bugeye:

 

[wsionynw]

....

And the odds of this planet being here with all elements to sustain our fragile existence with an intelligent being as it's creator... would be more likely?

For a start you're looking at it backwards. The only reason WE are here is because this little part of the universe has the right elements to allow life to develop. It's not that we appeared and then God created the universe to support us. To suggest it's more likely that a creator made the universe and all life is nonsense, since there is NO evidence to support it. Therefore that would be the least likely scenario.
You cannot work out the odds of human life, or any other form of life evolving over billions of years backwards. We are here because of events that have happened during the billions of years of evolution. Not because some God clicked his fingers and said Shazam.



Why is that?

If it's better to believe by 'faith' then why do theists constantly try to find proof against evolution and other biological discoveries that apparently diminish the role of an intelligent creator?

They only say it's better to believe with 'faith' rather than evidence because they have no evidence. It's like ugly people saying 'beauty is only skin deep' or poor people saying 'money can't buy happiness'.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Hey, I posted a method for obtaining proof a while back (here), but I guess it was too difficult! How would you prove there was someone in the prison cell down the corridor. Bang on the pipes and listen for a response! This God is allegedly sentient.

There is no proof on paper, you have to walk the talk, get up out of the armchair and find out! It's the only way.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

that's kinda funny, cause not a single "non-believer" has been able produce proof against

Technically, a negative can't be proven concerning existence; hence, the onus of proof is entirely on the theist. Fortunately science has resulted in the contradiction of many specific 'God' claims. The result is thousands of years of claim without supportive evidence and increasing amounts of contradictivew evidence. That's a direct path of falsification.

 

[Cris]

DD,

Ahh yes that was a nice proof. I guess the mountains I climbed were't high enough though - I suppose he couldn't hear me cos I wasn't close enough or I didn't shout loud enough. I must take some voice development classes. But I'm not keen on heights so I'll stay with the smaller mountains for now.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

...i have no evidence for god, and i don't believe there will ever be any actual physical evidence for god.

We're in agreement.

if i did have evidence, would you believe?

That's kind of a contradictory question. "If I did have evidence, would you accept the assertion 'God exists' without considering evidence?". The answer to your question is no. If your evidence was compelling I would know that 'God' exists. If your evidence was weak and still supportive then 'God's existence would be elevated to a hypothesis.

if so, then that defeats the purpose of belief. like it says in the bible, it's better to believe by faith then by proof.

I love this part of the mind virus. "I, God, pronounce in this book that acceptance of my existence must be without evidence because evidence is bad and frowned upon in the heavens.". It's brilliant self-enforced retardation.

truth of the matter is i can't prove his existance anymore then u can prove his non existance. it's a matter of opinion or choice. u probably think everything has a natural explanation. i think natural ( depending on the situation ) is just a fancy way of saying fluke or miracle, cause the odds of this planet being here with all the elements need to sustain our fragile and insignificant existance are like what, 1 in 150 or 200 million?

Why even claim that 'God' exists in the first place then?

atheists and theists aften argue about evolution. atheists say it's fact and it proves the bibles account of creation wrong. most theists say evolution didn't happen. after all there are gaps in it and some stages apparently overlap by like 200 thousand years. i'm stepping out on a limb by assuming you agree with with the atheists point of view. i'm not saying evolution didn't happen. i think it's very possible. but it in no way proves the bibles account of creation wrong. as a matter of fact it actually supports biblical scripture as far as i'm concerned.

The best way to fill in those 'gaps' is to take some coursework in evolution and see where those gaps actually are. Theists tend to make a case of huge gaps in the human fossil recored and presently that is not true. What the fossil record and experiments do show is that evolution is occuring as we speak. While every single detail of evolution is not known, enough about it is known to say that it is very real. It also contradicts Genesis quite nicely. Did you know that your oldest common ancestor is likely something resembling a mimivirus?

i'm glad i found this forum. it's very interesting. i like reading all the posts, both for and against my belief. i've enjoyed reading your posts, i think u have made some good points, but the more i read ( for and against ) the more i believe in my faith.

Your religion binds directly to your sense of self / self worth and as a result any challenge to it is a challenge to you directly. The more you feel you survive a challenge the stronger you feel about yourself and hence your religion. It's brilliant psychology and not infallible as you have to purposefully avoid a certain level of comprehension or it doesn't work. SouthStar (another Forum member) is a great example. He attained a good sense of reason and couldn't bear the irrationality of his religion anymore. For some the achievement of the breaking point of comprehension is quick and for other's it takes years. The only success in avoiding that point is to avert comprehension and many people are successful at it.

 

[SnakeLord]

if i did have evidence, would you believe?

Most certainly. But, having said that, if there was sufficient evidence, it would be a case of "know", not "believe". I personally think that's where all religious folk fall apart - they always say "believe". Fuck, people can "believe" whatever the hell they want to, but it can never compete with "know".

I "know" my daughter exists. Top that.

if so, then that defeats the purpose of belief.

It doesn't defeat anything - it's just a, (pathetic), excuse by the religious masses when they realise they can't offer anything more. If god came down and strut his stuff on prime time TV there'd be more "knowers", (I wont say "believers"), and the all-loving god would be delighted by the fact that more of the creation he loves now don't have to burn. That's all there is to it. Period.

like it says in the bible, it's better to believe by faith then by proof

A statement made by idiots and accepted by idiots.

u think i'm stupid for my belief

Certainly not, I cannot argue that some people clearly need it.

in your eyes i'm naive

I called your statement naive, and it remains so.

truth of the matter is i can't prove his existance anymore then u can prove his non existance

Once again, I can't "prove", (hate that word), the non-existence of hairy invisible leprechauns either. There is no point in your statement.

cause the odds of this planet being here with all the elements need to sustain our fragile and insignificant existance are like what, 1 in 150 or 200 million?

The odds are, at the moment of conception, over 70,000,000,000,000 (7.0x1013) to one that your genes will come together in the combination now in your body. Doh! It happened. All the 0's mean absolute bugger all.

atheists and theists aften argue about evolution. atheists say it's fact and it proves the bibles account of creation wrong.

Yes they do, yes it is and yes it does.

most theists say evolution didn't happen.

Most theists don't even know what evolution is - and I personally can't see a reason why they'd even care. Evolution doesn't try and refute the existence of gods. It doesn't consider or care about gods in any way whatsoever. That is not what evolution is.

after all there are gaps in it and some stages apparently overlap by like 200 thousand years.

If there weren't "gaps", no rational man would trust it at all. Only a fool thinks he has all the answers - and yet there are millions of those fools that believe some text written by ancient fools is the be all and end all of reality. Word of advice: never trust something that doesn't have "gaps".

i'm stepping out on a limb by assuming you agree with with the atheists point of view

Sorry what? Evolution and atheism are not connected. Sure, the majority of atheists "know" that evolution is a fact, as do many theists - but they are distinctly different things.

i'm not saying evolution didn't happen

I should hope not. It's a fact. It did, does and will continue to happen regardless to the existence or non existence of goblins, ghosts, or gods.

i think it's very possible.

It is a fact.

but it in no way proves the bibles account of creation wrong.

That the world and everything on it was created, as it now is, 7000 or so years ago? I am afraid it does. It can't exactly surprise you can it? You honestly think some ancient nomads knew anything about anything let alone how life came to be? How disrespectful that is to all of modern day man's brilliance. What the fuck did we bother crawling out of caves for?

as a matter of fact it actually supports biblical scripture as far as i'm concerned.

Care to show how? You've got me puzzled. Of course, as explained, evolution says nothing whatsoever about the existence of gods. Enjoy your belief in gods, evolution does not care.

i'm glad i found this forum. it's very interesting. i like reading all the posts, both for and against my belief. i've enjoyed reading your posts, i think u have made some good points, but the more i read ( for and against ) the more i believe in my faith.

I hope you enjoy your stay.

 

[Michael]

Prove? How? Even if he exists, it wouldn't be possible to prove it. There are lots of things that exist, people believe in them, but they can't be proven.

Sure it could. By definition God can do anything. Therefor God can prove it exists.

God can also make round squares
LOL
MII

 

[TW Scott]

Most certainly. But, having said that, if there was sufficient evidence, it would be a case of "know", not "believe". I personally think that's where all religious folk fall apart - they always say "believe". Fuck, people can "believe" whatever the hell they want to, but it can never compete with "know".

I "know" my daughter exists. Top that.

Actually I can top that people everywhere know smoking increases the chance of cancer, but for many of them the belief that they cannot quit supercedes their knowledge that they should.

It doesn't defeat anything - it's just a, (pathetic), excuse by the religious masses when they realise they can't offer anything more. If god came down and strut his stuff on prime time TV there'd be more "knowers", (I wont say "believers"), and the all-loving god would be delighted by the fact that more of the creation he loves now don't have to burn. That's all there is to it. Period.

Okay here is a better example which would you rather have serving under you a soldier who serves becuase he knows if he doesn't you will shoot him or a soldier who believes that you are doing the right thing. If you chose the first congratulations you are a moron.

A statement made by idiots and accepted by idiots.

Actually it is a statement said by the wise and accepted by those who know the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Once again, I can't "prove", (hate that word), the non-existence of hairy invisible leprechauns either. There is no point in your statement.

The point is if you cannot disprove something you cannot make the claim it is not there. I mean some aboriginal tribe in the Amazon forest could come out and say there is no fire underwater. From his limited experience he can certainlu believe this. However those of us who have seen sodium or greek fire know different.

The odds are, at the moment of conception, over 70,000,000,000,000 (7.0x1013) to one that your genes will come together in the combination now in your body. Doh! It happened. All the 0's mean absolute bugger all.

Very true on that scale, but the point against you is that the genes must come together some way when a person is born. It is not like if that combination wasn't hit there would be no baby. The take a look at the myriad of things that could have happened with the universe everything form still being collapsed matter to just a sprinkle of dust everywhere. That his planet came about in this condition is nothing short of astounding. That life spontaneously started is even more astounding.

Yes they do, yes it is and yes it does.

Yes they do, yes it is and no it doesn't. Biblic creation in genesis goes by days, but this is not mans days but gods. At one point in the Bible god mentions that ten thousand years is but a merest moment to him. Days to him might be in the billions of our years. A smart christian like myself realizes that God created the universe and all the laws and chaos that goes into it. Evolutions exists and has existed, it is just the tool god used to get life to the point he wanted it.

I should hope not. It's a fact. It did, does and will continue to happen regardless to the existence or non existence of goblins, ghosts, or gods.
That the world and everything on it was created, as it now is, 7000 or so years ago? I am afraid it does. It can't exactly surprise you can it? You honestly think some ancient nomads knew anything about anything let alone how life came to be? How disrespectful that is to all of modern day man's brilliance. What the fuck did we bother crawling out of caves for?

No need to be insulting about your ignorance. Some bibles claim 7000 years. Well they all do, but they have been rewritten and rewritten and edited and changed so much in some cases. I mean turning Jeshua's wife into a harlot. Erasing his kids. Of course the beginning got cloudy over the years, translations and oral traditions, so to put a date on things they went with most verifiable and consistant dates. And by the way I'd like to see you survive in the wilds of africa after we drop you off in the buff.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

if i could actually prove a GOD exists....

then we wouldnt need faith...

and we would all live our days in fear... and in worship.

hence... we would never show our lord... our true worth.



it is our lack of proof... which determines which are naturally obediant..

and which.. are naturally evil.... and disobediant...



you dont really want proof... for if you had it..

you would be hiding under your house, in fear of GODS wrath.



-MT

 

[pavlosmarcos]

wow! these people live amongst us, control our governments, are leaders of our fighting forces, does'nt that scare the shit out of you, it does me.
it's about time we irradicated this mind virus called religion.

 

[lightgigantic]

wow! these people live amongst us, control our governments, are leaders of our fighting forces, does'nt that scare the shit out of you, it does me.
it's about time we irradicated this mind virus called religion.

I think what he was saying, perhaps in a somewhat clumsy fashion, is that god doesn't want us to surrender to him out of fear - suppose a man just married a woman and said "OK - you must love me otherwise I will beat you with a stick" Even if she didn't hate the guy she would end up hating him real quick - in the same way god is not interested in our displays of fearful servility but spontaneous love.

God doesn't require to nail us down with fear just to keep us under control like a government might need to - I mean what can we do in the way of rebellion in the universe (except make the air unbreathable or kill each other)

 

[Sarkus]

...people everywhere know smoking increases the chance of cancer, but for many of them the belief that they cannot quit supercedes their knowledge that they should.

False analogy. Your use of the word "belief" is based on evidence - the people know their own past actions and, based on that evidence, come to the conclusion that they do not believe they can quit. This is nothing more than an assessment of probability - and is thus NOT the same as the religious belief in God.

The point is if you cannot disprove something you cannot make the claim it is not there. I mean some aboriginal tribe in the Amazon forest could come out and say there is no fire underwater. From his limited experience he can certainlu believe this. However those of us who have seen sodium or greek fire know different.

Most atheists do NOT claim that it is not there - they merely do not have the belief that it IS - as to do so without evidence IS IRRATIONAL.

Your analogy is again flawed - as while it would be irrational for the aboriginal tribe to believe that there is fire underwater without evidence - there IS evidence that can be shown to them to tell them otherwise. At which point it would be delusional to claim that there is NOT fire underwater.

But with GOD there is NO EVIDENCE.

Well they all do, but they have been rewritten and rewritten and edited and changed so much in some cases. I mean turning Jeshua's wife into a harlot. Erasing his kids. Of course the beginning got cloudy over the years, translations and oral traditions, so to put a date on things they went with most verifiable and consistant dates.

And yet, despite all these rewrites and edits, you (in general) still claim it as the word of God - with many believing it word for word???

 

[pavlosmarcos]

I think what he was saying,

I was'nt just refering to Mosheh Thezion, all you religious nuts, and yes thats you included.
anyone who believes in a deity of any sort, is extremely dangerous to humanity.(oops, we've blown up the world, oh never mind we'll all live forever in heaven anyway, for f**k sake, give me a f**king break.)

 

[KennyJC]

For a start you're looking at it backwards. The only reason WE are here is because this little part of the universe has the right elements to allow life to develop. It's not that we appeared and then God created the universe to support us. To suggest it's more likely that a creator made the universe and all life is nonsense, since there is NO evidence to support it. Therefore that would be the least likely scenario.
You cannot work out the odds of human life, or any other form of life evolving over billions of years backwards. We are here because of events that have happened during the billions of years of evolution. Not because some God clicked his fingers and said Shazam.

I am agreeing with you.

My point was that people think a living creator poofing the universe into existence is actually more likely than it occurring naturally.

For there to be a living God, there would have to be another chain in the link... and that makes it more unlikely.

Furthermore, to have a book(s) actually written by this extra chain that probably isn't there should make you realize you belong to a sham of an institution.

 

[Rickie]

Thank you Cris, i found this forum by fluke one night. I wish i knew about this a long time ago. I have only recently really started looking deeper into all this stuff, so this is really helping me. I look

crunchy cat and snakelord, read genesis 4. adam and eve have two sons, cain and abel. cain kills abel. then cain goes out and meets his wife. all of that was before they have their third child seth. where did the other people come from? I think evolution is the explaintion for the other people.

tw scott, i really liked your post. you seem to be very educated in your belief ( mine as well ) i look forward to reading more of your posts.

lightgigantic, thank you. u pretty much nailed what i was trying to say.

 

[Rickie]

I was'nt just refering to Mosheh Thezion, all you religious nuts, and yes thats you included.
anyone who believes in a deity of any sort, is extremely dangerous to humanity.(oops, we've blown up the world, oh never mind we'll all live forever in heaven anyway, for f**k sake, give me a f**king break.)

not everyone gets to go. hell i believe and i have know doubt in my head that i wouldn't. and get it straight, it's not anyone who believes in a deity, it's the extremists who are dangerous to humanity. the ones who truly follow their faith know that it teaches peace and not to kill. but yes, some do make mistakes, no body is perfect.

 

[Rickie]

wow! these people live amongst us, control our governments, are leaders of our fighting forces, does'nt that scare the shit out of you, it does me.
it's about time we irradicated this mind virus called religion.

actually no, "these people" don't control our governments, our governments try to use the belief for their own personal agenda, and to try and control the people of their country.
when it comes down to the leaders of our fighting forces, remember that some of the greatest heros in ww1 and ww2 were theists. if it weren't for those heros maybe we'd all be german now. so if you ask me, i take great comfort in the fact that some those leaders are theists. even though i may disagree with it. but hey thats just my opinion.