Prophecy vs. Original Sin

L

LaoTzu

Registered Senior Member
For those of you who believe in both a) original sin or some such free will equivalent and b) the idea that the prophecies in the Bible or elsewhere have or will come true:

How can those beliefs coexist in the same logical system?

If one believes in original sin, generally, one must also believe in free will, or at the very least not believe in hard determinism. If there is not hard determinism, then there is, by definition, no reason to believe that the future will play out in any pre-specified way, especially with the precision of some of the prophecies.

If one believes in the prophecies, contrapositively, one must believe that events in the universe operate on such rigid laws that there can be no true uncertainty, nor any human ability to alter the flow of events any more than deterministic restrictions allow. This would render free will nonexistent and original sin meaningless.

How does one reconcile this?
 
Everyone has free will, and will do what they want, but those that wrote the bible, wrote these prophecies from what God revealed to them will happen. He shows His prophets the "end result" after all the free-will has played out.

John said: I was caught up in the Spirit on "The Lords Day".
He was in the future, today looking backwards into the past, as God or an angel spoke to him . This is how the book of Revelations was written.

You have to decide if John was a prophet of God, or not. I say he was.

Soothsaying is witchcraft, and although sometimes reveals truth, othertimes it may not......Spirits show these things. It is an impersonation of the office of a prophet of God.

Is it a spirit of God, or an unclean spirit.? That was the question they used to know to ask. There are "rules" for the "vindicating" of prophets. They are in the bible and you can look them up. "People aren't taught these things anymore thanks to our "Enlightened Scientific Age".


They are road-kill for whats coming.
 
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That is not the subject of this thread.

My statement is that the idea of free will contradicts the notion of prophecy.
 
Maybe you need to take off them glasses and try reading again, I answered your question perfectly.:)
 
Your Question.
Q: How can those beliefs coexist in the same logical system?

My Answer.
A: Everyone has free will, and will do what they want, but those that wrote the bible, wrote these prophecies from what God revealed to them will happen. He shows His prophets the "end result" after all the free-will has played out.
 
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I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Looking at something from the future implies that there is no other way things could turn out, right? It implies that the observed state of the future is the only possible one. Under this system, there is no way free will could be meaningful, because there is only one way things could turn out, and thus the application of free will would change nothing.

I'm a determinist, so I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that there is no free will; however, if you are going to believe in free will, there is no way to assume that there is only one possible future, as Revelations does.
 
If you are going to believe in free will, there is no way to assume that there is only one possible future, as Revelations does.

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My statement explains very basicly how this can be.....but it is a very complex subject, and is one of the "mysteries of the kingdom" and an important doctrine that God has revealed to us in this day.

I actually believe in predestination, thru the fore-knowledge of God., He knew the begining from the end, and knew what you would do. He doesn't make you do it.
But If God is omnicient, He must know "everything".
To believe otherwise puts limits on God, and then He would not be omnipotent.
He predestinated some to "election" before the foundation of the world.....Put their names on the Lamb's book of life....see

Read in I think Romans where he says:

Romans 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
 
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This is an important subject to understand, This "freewill" question may be responcible for Satan's deceiveing 1/3 of the angels in heaven. To understand you must realize Satan's power of reasoning is beyond your human ability, you must stay with the Word of God to "defeat" Him in this as Jesus did.
He said to Satan, It is written..(in the scriptures),
It is written......(in the scriptures), ....when he responded to Satan's temptations in the wilderness.
 
All of those ideas still contradict the notion of being able to choose anything independently of natural, deterministic forces acting on and within the brain. God cannot have foreknowledge if man has free will. (An important distinction to make is that "free will" doesn't deal with the issue of whether someone else is forcing you to do something; it deals with whether anything you do is not an unadulterated product of your genes and environment.)
 
God cannot have foreknowledge if man has free will.

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This statement has to be false.

The word says; "with God, all things are posible"

To say otherwise is to limit God and the scriptures don't say that.

The human mind is finite God is infinite, I said you may not be able to understand the things of god with human reasoning.

Thats why you must be "born again" to see (understand) the kingdom of God.
 
LaoTzu:
Close... god can have foreknowldge and people freewill, but god would have to be unable to affect change (or unwilling)

Basically there are 3 things:
God knows the future
People have freewill
God affects people by His choices

You can pick any 2, but not have all 3
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
The word says; "with God, all things are posible"

To say otherwise is to limit God and the scriptures don't say that.
Click to expand...
Can God create a logical contradiction?

Also, the nonexistence of God is a subset of "all things." Therefore, that statement includes the fact that with God, it is possible for God not to exist, which is a logical contradiction.

I'm no realist about logic; I think it's just a manmade tool. However, if God can contradict logic, and if all things are possible, then I see no reason for you to use logic anywhere else in your beliefs.

Originally posted by Persol
You can pick any 2, but not have all 3
Click to expand...
That doesn't seem to follow; I think it would work if the three statements were:

God knows the future.
People have free will.
*People* affect things by their choices.
 
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