Proof of intelligent design

In what way does this link prove intelligent design? It lists a bunch of animals that do interesting things and claim that they had to have been designed. For example, it says lions are proof of intelligent design because when one lion kills another lion it also kills their cubs.
Read this link, secular folk, and weep
I should start crying... this is a pathetic excuse of a paper. They are just trying to prove what they want to be true and not trying to prove what is correct. Evolution is a proven fact. Things change over time! After three years of usage, 75% of bacteria were resistant to penicillin! The only argument that can be made is that a higher power started the chain of life.
 
LOL, it's perhaps a poor attempt at comedy, but there are certainly no proofs.

Now go read some science and some reasoned debates -

http://www.talkorigins.org/

And a short extract -

Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory.

So go weep cos creationism is just sheer bunk and a total waste of time even considering it.

Kat
 
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TheERK said:
There is no way these things just happened by chance.
No one says that they did.

"It's not enough merely to show that an IG system can evolve; the burden of proof rests squarely on the evos to show all of these did evolve."

No. It would be the ID theorists burden to prove that there are indeed "IG" systems and incapable of evolving naturally. Thus far, they have failed.

"Our theory's mechanisms are simple, elegant and well supported, requiring no recourse to oddball hypotheses and idle speculation."

ID has no theories. The default "hypothesis" for everything according to ID is "God did it". That is not a theory, a theory requires evidence. This is a typical creationist ploy. Knowing that they have no evidence to support ID they resort to merely questioning the validity of evolutionary theories and making absurd demands like that above. ID's only argument is a logical fallacy; argument from ignorance.

~Raithere
 
What unexpectedly vitriolic replies to the article I wrote. :( Apparently, your "open-minded" evolutionist modus operandi consists of merely ridicule. I'll try not to reply in kind (Luke 6:27-28: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you"), as difficult as that is, but will just give my thoughts on specific arguments.

(1) Irreducibly grotesque systems can't readily evolve for reasons I listed in the body of the article. To wit, they would require the simultaneous development of several individual components all necessary for the same mauling or infestation function, which is thoroughly unlikely. Hypothetically, one could argue they might evolve through indirect pathways, but this is special pleading unless it can be substantiated with strong independent evidence.

(2) Irreducible grotesqueness is most certainly not an argument from ignorance. Think about it. How does one conclude anything in science? When one finds a fossil in the ground, its resemblance to known fossilized creatures is what gives strength to the conclusion--not the fact no other known process except fossilization creates them! In a similar fashion, to name but one example, the Bubonic Plague's type III toxin injection system bears an uncanny resemblance to designed things like assassin's darts and such. That's what drives the conclusion of design, not the fact that evolution is powerless to explain it (although that certainly strenghens the point). As I remark at the end (paraphrasing William Paley), if you found a delicately-crafted torture instrument just lying around, would you conclude it was made by chance or design? I submit that the answer should be painfully obvious for anyone who isn't blinded by ideology.

(3) Nothing is "proven" in science, and I never claimed to offer "proofs," merely very strong evidence for design. That sounds like something you could read on an ill-informed creationist site instead (which, sadly for those of us in the movement who try to be intellectually honest, are all too common). Even the prominent evolutionist H. J. Muller concedes this: "The honest scientist... will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty... Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea."

(4) Using microevolutionary changes as an argument against irreducible grotesqueness is naive at best, and dishonest at worst (although I'm not accusing anyone of the later--it's very easy to honestly make this mistake). I noted this in my article for those who would actually read it, as opposed to skimming! Sure, hair can grow longer. Jaw size can increase or decrease. Teeth and claws can become a bit sharper. But this won't spontaneously (and simultaneously!!) give a formerly benign worm the abilities to infest a person, crawl out through their bloodied eyes, transfer embryos to an intermediate flying insect, have those survive inside the gut, and then, to top it all off, make them able to reinfect a new person from a bite and evade all the immune responses using a variety of complex stealthing mechanisms as they repeat the cycle! Without any of these abilities, Loa loa (the eye worm of Africa) couldn't reproduce! Its staggeringly complex lifecycle is thoroughly irreducible; how would evolution account for it, even in principle? Design certainly could...

(5) While the issue of common descent is outside the scope of my article, it doesn't bear one way or another on the issue of IG systems' evolveability. Dr. Behe apparently accepts that humans and apes share a common ancestor, but denies that IG systems were produced by evolution, for example. Others deny it wholesale. I won't comment on it here. Keep in mind that both common descent and almighty God's involvement in life's design are logically possible.

(6) ID has plenty of theories! Where evolutionists only have natural selection, it has amptly-documented psionic mechanisms substantiated by Jesus and other miracle workers throughout history. I *also* noted this in my article. Why did no one read it? :( Granted, the specifics of how these work are not yet totally known--my guess is some kind of esoteric manipulation of quantum mechanics, and I'm sure testable predictions could be derived from this view--but then, there are lingering mysteries in the evolutionary philosophy too, such as just how sexual selection works and such. But give it time. While evolution has had centuries of work, from the Greek philosophers to Darwin and beyond, scientific studies of ID are relatively recent in comparison.

I hope the above points are sufficient to clear up any questions. Ultimately we're all just looking for the truth, both creationist and evolutionist, so there's really no need for personal attacks. May you all be blessed and see the light!
 
Excellent article Mr. Winace. Nature is red in tooth and claw. God is good!

Just like the water cycle, the food cycle could not have developed by chance. Many people think that water rises, condenses and it rains. This is too simplistic. The real reason for precipitation is the bergeron process. If the saturation vapor pressure over supercooled water and ice was constant, there would be disastrously less precipiation. Fortunately, it is not and water vapor, air pressure, ice crystals, dust particles and saturation vapor pressure all have to work in tendem inside a cloud. Remove one component and the whole system collapses (what good is half a snowflake?).

This cleverly devised and irreducibly complex system is proof of God word where it says he causes it to rain on the just and unjust alike.

Vinnie
 
at least some fossils are likely planted by Satan

Lol! that is fucking hilarious. :bugeye:

As for the rest of it.... It is really not worth the kilobytes of space it is taking up. I don't mean to sound rude to anyone, but it is just so.... ummm.. devoid of knowledge.
 
What are you talking about? Satan is the great deceiver. He deceived Adam and Eve. He tried to deceive Jesus and is described as a roaring lion waiting to devour prey in the bible.

Of course Satan would have planted seeds of doubt to trick us about the veracity of God's word. The rest is our own misunderstanding and silly acceptance of uniformitarianism.

Saying some fossils were planted by Satan is a cetainty. God is good however, in that amidst these few false instances, he has supplied us with a greater abundance of proofs for a young earth. God's faithfulness far surpasses Satan's treachory and fossil planting.

Vinnie
 
WinAce

Firstly I would like to address your pathetic call for no personal attacks; especially given your article has several instances where you insult people yourself.

"Richard Dawkins, Oxford University Professor of Zoology by day, godless communist sympathizer by night"

"Heathen, God-hating evolutionists like Kenneth Miller"

"As much as evolutionists will try, their (often pathetic)"


If those aren't personal attacks I don't know what is, so shut your trap because your trying to take the high moral ground is pure bullshit.

"All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all."
- Monty Python

You do realise Monty Python was most likely taking the piss.

"Since evolution supposedly operates via incremental changes, the likelihood of spontaneously creating an IG system out of thin air, in one generation, drops exponentially as the number of required parts goes up."
And you think the chance of life evolving was high? This sentence is where this hypothesis falls on its face. Life occurred. So did these systems. Deal with the fact that your religion is irreversibly flawed by actually learning something about evolution because you understand it about as much as you understand the gravitational forces of this solar system.

"Second, there's no evidence that evolution can cobble together IG systems. Evolutionists will mention examples of bacteria with new IG systems being found in isolated petri dishes. They'll point out the startling genetic similarities between bits of known systems used for other purposes, and a newly discovered IG system. They'll point to computer simulations ("genetic algorithms") which evolved multiple dozens of independent functions all required for a larger whole. They'll even show fossil series with anatomy that appears to incrementally change from an innocuous to grotesque function simply by modifying and refining existing components.

But they can't really prove any of this. Bacterial colonies can be contaminated; similarities can be explained by similar design; computer simulations can be rigged; at least some fossils are likely planted by Satan; and finally, there's nothing preventing God from creating an IG system here or there through evolution. How does one design an experiment that, even in principle, excludes an omnipresent deity's possible influence? Until these "scientists" can answer that, their "vain babblings and oppositions of science falsely so called" (1 Tim 6:20) should be taken with a grain, or preferably bucket of salt."

This is so sceptical and full of crap that any attempt to address it is useless. If you claim to have an open mind you are sorely delusional.

"no other process capable of this has been documented (see point #2)."
This argument is adequate to deny the existence of your religion.

"Moreover, the life, miracle-working, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ is better attested historically than Augustus Caesar, World War II, and George W. Bush's incompetence put together."
You actually believe this? You are mentally unstable. This is not a personal attack but merely a theory based on the fact that while you are alive now you are able to witness George W Bush. The people who wrote the bible did so well after jesus' time. If you like to think this accurate documentation I wouldn't expect you to understand something as 'complex' as evolution.

"Our theory's mechanisms are simple, elegant and well supported"
By what? A contradictory book, written well after its subject matter, so fundamentally flawed that it takes extreme leaps of faith to believe what is written in it? To allay my fears that something might actually make sense in the bible I thought I better read it to make sure. I was in tears laughing after the first few paragraphs- how can you believe such nonsense? Because you were indoctrinated into it at birth and it is now so much of whom you are you have to justify it in any way possible or your person is completely baseless.

"Conversely, what evidence for their esoteric and unproven mechanisms of "natural selection" can evolutionists draw on?"
Any organism in the world. I would postulate that these ideas are so foreign to what's hardwired into your neurons that you can't even read something about evolution without instantly dismissing it.

"A few breeds of dog"
And so any fears that you might actually have one iota of intelligence are banished. Dogs should prove to you natural selection and therefore evolution. Because you can simply toss this away shows me that your mind flows through an invincible pipe, 1cm in diameter, so that any thing but what you've been indoctrinated into believing cannot penetrate your thoughts.

"The mind is like a parachute. You need to open it for it to work"
I will not claim this as my own but nor can I remember the author’s name. You my friend slammed into terra firma before you even had a chance.
 
And you think the chance of life evolving was high? This sentence is where this hypothesis falls on its face. Life occurred. So did these systems. Deal with the fact that your religion is irreversibly flawed by actually learning something about evolution because you understand it about as much as you understand the gravitational forces of this solar system.

This is what the more philosophical concept of intelligent design teaches. In a theistic universe the probability for life is 1 since a God of love would want to create sentient beings with volution. In an atheistic universe the probability is much much lower.

We are here, theefore, there is better reason for affirming theism than atheism.

In one scenario we have blind chance and random events. In the other we have God of love calculatively creating free willed beings with quantum openness and holositic top down causality.

This is the argument all the atheists are afraid of since its irrefutable.

Vinnie
 
Theists are not searching for truth. They are searching for things that support their preconceived notions.

A search for truth involves accepting the hard truth over the easy lie. It acknowledges that arguments from authority are worthless.

Once you accept the idea that god and satan have planted false fossils to deceive us, what is stopping them from having created the world a millisecond ago, with all of us in our present state, brains full of false memories?

I have no doubt that the universe was not created for the benefit of humans, and that we are of no significance whatsoever.
 
""""Richard Dawkins, Oxford University Professor of Zoology by day, godless communist sympathizer by night""""""""

This is hardly an attack. Dawkings is renown for his disdain, contemp and utter hatred for religious things.

Unfortunately, Winace makes an error as Ken Miller is a Christian evolutionist. He does not hate God. He is one of the foremost defenders of evolution, however.

Also, winace was charitable when he wrote: "often pathetic". Evolutionist attempts at evidence are always pathetic. He presumably knows this and was being nice so I would back off if I were you.

Vinnie
 
"""""""Once you accept the idea that god and satan have planted false fossils to deceive us, what is stopping them from having created the world a millisecond ago, with all of us in our present state, brains full of false memories? """"""

The Bible doesn't record it. There is a difference betweem inanimate objects and those with volition. Also, if God created the world a millisecond ago that is his business. He would have his own true purposes for such an action.

Vinnie
 
atheroy, if winace's article is so ridiculous, how come neither you or anyone here can refute it, but only offer insults, assertions and ad hominems against it?

Vinnie
 
Repo Man made these comments:

1. Theists are not searching for truth.

2. I have no doubt that the universe was not created for the benefit of humans.

If both of those statements are true then you must be a theist.

Vinnie
 
WinAce said:
(1) Irreducibly grotesque systems can't readily evolve

Yes they can

WinAce said:
(2) As I remark at the end (paraphrasing William Paley), if you found a delicately-crafted torture instrument just lying around, would you conclude it was made by chance or design? I submit that the answer should be painfully obvious for anyone who isn't blinded by ideology.

I wrote some essays especially for you:

essay 1</a>
essay 1</a>
essay 1</a>
essay 1</a>

Happy reading...


WinAce said:
(3) Nothing is "proven" in science, and I never claimed to offer "proofs," merely very strong evidence for design. [/i]

We often hear news stories in which the narrator refers to having 'enough proof.' This is an example of confusing the terms, 'proof' and 'evidence.' The term, 'proof,' is used in geometry and in courts of law but does not belong in science. Scientists gather evidence to support or falsify hypotheses. Hypotheses and theories may be well supported by evidence, but never proven.

link</a>

WinAce said:
(4) Teeth and claws can become a bit sharper.

I picked one, because I am supposed to be a teeth expert. Here is a reference for you.
Salazar-Ciudad, I. and Jernvall, J. (2002) A gene network model accounting for development and evolution of mammalian teeth. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 99, 8116-8120.
How teeth can change quite radically in cusp design by a simple genetic network of inhibitors and activators

and one of my own articles suggest that a small change in the regulation of the stem cell niche can create a radical new tooth design:

Tummers, M. and Thesleff, I. (2003) Root or crown: a developmental choice orchestrated by the differential regulation of the epithelial stem cell niche in the tooth of two rodent species. Development 130, 1049-1057.

It has been peer-reviewed, not like your stuff.

WinAce said:
(5) While the issue of common descent is outside the scope of my article, it doesn't bear one way or another on the issue of IG systems' evolveability. Dr. Behe apparently accepts that humans and apes share a common ancestor, but denies that IG systems were produced by evolution, for example. Others deny it wholesale. I won't comment on it here. Keep in mind that both common descent and almighty God's involvement in life's design are logically possible.

Is there a point to this paragraph?

WinAce said:
(6) ID has plenty of theories! Where evolutionists only have natural selection, it has amptly-documented psionic mechanisms substantiated by Jesus and other miracle workers throughout history. I *also* noted this in my article. Why did no one read it? :( Granted, the specifics of how these work are not yet totally known--my guess is some kind of esoteric manipulation of quantum mechanics, and I'm sure testable predictions could be derived from this view--but then, there are lingering mysteries in the evolutionary philosophy too, such as just how sexual selection works and such. But give it time. While evolution has had centuries of work, from the Greek philosophers to Darwin and beyond, scientific studies of ID are relatively recent in comparison.

cough cough...Greek philosophers believed in evolution? Yeah...right.

Although Darwin was not the first with a theory of evolution, it was the first one that proposed a valid mechanism that excluded god. Evolution by natural selection was pretty much accepted from the very beginning although there was a lot of controversy. Nothing has changed since then. The theory of evolution never needed any time to proof that it could stand the test of time. Your theory gives us nothing. It is not a scientific theory. We can't work with it. How do you propose we go about doing our work with your weakly constructed thoughts? Can you come up with a theory that fits all the current data? No. Does the current data fit within the evolutionary framework? yes.

WinAce said:
I hope the above points are sufficient to clear up any questions. Ultimately we're all just looking for the truth, both creationist and evolutionist, so there's really no need for personal attacks. May you all be blessed and see the light!

Give us your theory then that fits the current data and makes more sense than the theory of evolution. Then we will be happy.

It is not that difficult. We can summarize the theory of evolution in a paragraph or two. You can do the same for us.
 
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WinAce said:
Irreducibly grotesque systems can't readily evolve for reasons I listed in the body of the article.
Why don't you give us an example of an "Irreducibly grotesque" system?

Irreducible grotesqueness is most certainly not an argument from ignorance.
Actually, it is. The argument is, we do not know how it could have evolved naturally so god must have done it. This is the essence of Argumentum ad ignorantiam. It also commits the fallacy of false dilemma. Even if something couldn't have evolved into its present form it might not have been god that's responsible, perhaps it was aliens or the wicked witch of the west.

As I remark at the end (paraphrasing William Paley), if you found a delicately-crafted torture instrument just lying around, would you conclude it was made by chance or design?
It would depend upon the nature of the environment you found it in. To make the analogy fit the actual situation you should imagine that the surrounding environment is full of 'delicately crafted torture instrument' components. Further, these components naturally combine in a myriad of ways everywhere you look.

Nothing is "proven" in science, and I never claimed to offer "proofs," merely very strong evidence for design.
And when will you get around to providing them?

Using microevolutionary changes as an argument against irreducible grotesqueness is naive at best, and dishonest at worst
Accepting "microevolution" while denying "macroevolution" is shortsighted at best unless, of course, one can come up with a biological mechanism that prevents such "microevolutionary" changes from accruing over time.

But this won't spontaneously (and simultaneously!!)
Who said anything about spontaneously and simultaneously? It's quite easy to beat up a straw man, isn't it?

Without any of these abilities, Loa loa (the eye worm of Africa) couldn't reproduce! Its staggeringly complex lifecycle is thoroughly irreducible; how would evolution account for it, even in principle?
First off you have the life cycle wrong. The "eye worm" can actually infest any subcutaneous tissue. It is transmitted by fly bite into the tissue where the worm matures, reproduces, and deposits microfilaria where they can infest the next fly that bites the infected host. They do not need to exit through the eye and transfer embryos to a fly; the infested host contaminates the vector.

It's easy enough to see how this could develop from a single host parasite that relied upon direct transmission via urine, feces, blood, and or saliva. A few changes in the microfilaria and the parasite is able to live within a new host and now has a whole new vector of transmission. The adaptation makes perfect sense in an evolutionary context since the new vector can transmit the parasite much more effectively.

Here's some information regarding the evolution of parasites with complex life cycles.

http://cepm.mpl.ird.fr/cepm/edbs/pub/AmNat2003.pdf
http://stevefrank.org/antiVar/antiVar-intro.pdf

The other alternative is what? God just thought the world needed parasitic eye worms?

it has amptly-documented psionic mechanisms substantiated by Jesus and other miracle workers throughout history.
Off to the pseudo-science forum with you.

my guess is some kind of esoteric manipulation of quantum mechanics, and I'm sure testable predictions could be derived from this view
Indeed? How would one use 'esoteric manipulation of quantum mechanics' to invoke a miracle? Hypothetically, that is.

such as just how sexual selection works and such.
What mystery are you referring to?

While evolution has had centuries of work, from the Greek philosophers to Darwin and beyond, scientific studies of ID are relatively recent in comparison.
Wow. Just wow. Darwin published "Origin of Species" in 1859. The Greek Philosophers had no theories regarding biological evolution, they didn't even have a formal science. In contrast ID, which is really just Creationism in sheep's clothing, is still not a science but is thousands of years old.

~Raithere
 
Winace, Vinnie, ERK,

ID is based on the concept that anything complex must have been created by something that possesses intelligence. Man’s intelligence is quoted as the primary and only known example of intelligence capable of creating complex artifacts.

Yet this fundamental basis of ID is false. Man has never created or designed anything complex. Let’s take the modern micro-processor as an example. This would appear to be the current crown jewel of man’s intelligence and design ability; microscopic, incredibly complex, and ingenious. Yet man’s intelligence did not design these devices. Computers, just like absolutely everything else that appears complex is the result of evolutionary processes. Computers started on their path when the first man began making marks on a stick to record his kills. From thousands of years ago computing devices have slowly evolved into increasingly complex devices. Even today a modern computer is out of date within a few months.

Computers are phenomenally useful and if they were the direct result of intelligent design then why didn’t the ancient Egyptians design them, they were just as intelligent as modern man? There is no doubt that man’s intelligence has played a role in the evolution of the computers but that is all it is, just a component in an evolutionary process.

I challenge you to show anything complex that man has apparently designed that was not the result of a modification or adaptation of something simpler and earlier, i.e. where man was not just an evolutionary component.

Having established that nothing complex has ever been designed from scratch by an intelligence then where does that leave the ID concept? In shreds of course. I guess the IDers will argue that an ID god will have super-intelligence that far exceeds man’s primitive attempts and therefore does not require any evolutionary processes to help him/her/it. But then that would be just another creative religious fantasy that has no basis.

Just a thought.

Kat
 
Wow.

Wow, wow, wow. I'd let this carry on, but it's just too pathetic.

I just lost a great deal of respect for the posters here who did not recognize that the article is a complete joke. It is a satire of typical ID-proponent arguments. If you had bothered to actually read the article, or even just *look at the pictures*, it is immediately obvious that this is a parody.

Also, it is not a "poor attempt at comedy": it is quite a successful one. Congratulations to Winace for this carefully crafted piece of satire.

For evolutionists in the natural-selection-only camp (like myself), congratulations: it's people like you that perpetuate the irritating theist stereotypes about secular people, for example, frothing at the mouth when confronted about their 'beliefs.' Until recently, I thought that this stereotype was totally unfounded, because most secular people aren't anything like that. I guess that's just because I'm used to the community at the http://www.randi.org forums.

I must emphasize: wow. I almost cannot believe that so many people took this seriously.
 
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