Pressure Harvesting - from ocean depths

[Write4U]

That's true. And the only pumping that needs to be done in pumped hydro is evacuating the accumulated water in the lower reservoir.

Thanks for confirming my perspective.

Answer is no. Just like pumped hydro.

So it isn't used anywhere, for specific purposes? Ahhh, we use oil to pump, that's the difference!

Seems then that the ocean can only be used for tidal power, which requires no pumping at all, or the gulf stream which acts as a river in very specific areas, but also does not require pumping. And as a flotation medium for a tidal leveraged flotation pressure system which can be used as an indirect electric generating system without the need for pumping.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Do you think you've got some retrieval process that will get you your 70% efficiency?

yes and possibly better...

Where does that number even come from, anyway? Did you just make it up?

Initially no not quite...
The premise of about 70 % is based on similar energy systems and the expectation that the laws associated with conservation of energy force us to expect that

• If we can exploit all potential energy sources on descent of the variable volume vessel
• If we can exploit all potential energy sources upon ascent of the vessel
• And allow for energy losses, friction, water resistance, thermal changes as depth changes etc,

We could most likely see about 70% + efficiency for the system phase of sinking and retrieving the vessel.
Economic viability (efficiency) is another issue... and I am still researching this. Mainly to do with the payload.

Even if we sink it and use solar to raise it, kick back and have a beer in the process there will be money in the bank.
The question is more about learning key aspects of Fluid Mechanics and how it all relates.
Understanding that deep oceans pressure ( with displacement PE ) can be an exploitable resource and the current limitations of doing so is also a key aspect of this thread.

It is also a great distraction from the COVID Pandemic sweeping the world at the moment, with it's increasing social isolation. ( more screen time for me and others)

 

[Quantum Quack]

Yes I'm afraid it is rather a thankless task trying to explain this to you. I may come back to it later, if I have enough energy and nothing better to do.

oh don't worry, your assistance is greatly appreciated.
I went off after your post and did some research and found out about a new unit of measurement "mols" and discovered that you are correct. The mass of deep water compared to surface water is the same, the only difference is pressure, not density. And even though the water may be under pressure it has not reduced it's volume thus it's mass (mols) is unchanged.

So all in all we have found that you comment was correct and that water density is merely trivial if any at depth.

However in the process I found that ocean temperature acting on the compressed air is not to be taken lightly.
This is especially true if one wishes to retrieve high pressure air at cool (2 C) temperatures and raise it to a higher temperature at the surface.(average 26 d C) effecting payload.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

We could most likely see about 70% + efficiency for the system phase of sinking and retrieving the vessel.

I think that possibly your expectation may be generous.

Consider a steam engine...if we were on the brink of building our first steam engine I wonder what our expectation as to efficiency might be compared to what a working unit delivers.

I was about to curse you for raising this idea as I find so much of my thinking has me preoccupied now upon this matter but instead I thank you as I find my old mind is working very hard on a solution.

I have thought about so many approaches but the prospect of no free lunch slams the door.

In an effort to create a harvestable flow I even considered having two columns of water one of sea water one of fresh water presuming that there may be a difference in pressure between the two such that the sea water would flow to the fresh water side... but even if this was the result we would reach a point where the pressure would equalise and we would have to man the pumps.

Then it occurred to me...necessity is often the mother of invention and necessity tolerated the very inefficient steam engine, which I recall is only 3%, so perhaps thinking about the necessity can find an application that tolerates the inefficency expected in your system, such that any inefficiency is tolerated because the necessity is addressed better than current propositions....and I am thinking oil rigs as a potential market.

So I conclude that, now having determined we may have energy potential what job can your system do that enables us to tolerate the inefficiency.
We tolerate inefficiency in our cars for example because they do their job.
Alex

 

[Write4U]

In an effort to create a harvestable flow I even considered having two columns of water one of sea water one of fresh water presuming that there may be a difference in pressure between the two such that the sea water would flow to the fresh water side... but even if this was the result we would reach a point where the pressure would equalise and we would have to man the pumps.

From the illustration of the patent I am investigating, the seawater flows into empty (air vented) tailwater tanks.
That is the least amount of resistance possible. The problem is that when the tanks are full with seawater, they need to be pumped out regularly to offer continual tailwater space.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

The problem is that when the tanks are full with seawater, they need to be pumped out regularly to offer continual tailwater space.

Yes I was aware of that.
I do think finding the unique application is key.
We need an application that does not care about any inefficiency cause the system does a better job than current methods.
So I will leave it to the team to come up with that application...
Continual pumping may be acceptable to provide a short but high release of energy.
Consider cordless drills, a slow input of energy is used to be released in a short high consumption job...the most efficient way would be to plug into a power point...but then it would not deliver the benefit of cordless.

Alex

 

[Write4U]

It always depends on the net gain. Any net gain is beneficial in the long run. Any net loss makes it useless for long term use.
But I have not heard much about using the Gulf Stream to generate electricity. It is the largest most powerful "river" on earth.

As a consequence, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean current.
It transports water at a rate of 30 million cubic metres per second (30 sverdrups) through the Florida Straits. As it passes south of Newfoundland, this rate increases to 150 million cubic metres per second.

The volume of the Gulf Stream dwarfs all rivers that empty into the Atlantic combined, which barely total 0.6 million cubic metres per second. It is weaker, however, than the Antarctic Circumpolar Current.

The Gulf Stream is typically 100 kilometres (62 mi) wide and 800 metres (2,600 ft) to 1,200 metres (3,900 ft) deep. The current velocity is fastest near the surface, with the maximum speed typically about 2.5 metres per second (5.6 mph).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream

 

[Quantum Quack]

It always depends on the net gain. Any net gain is beneficial in the long run. Any net loss makes it useless for long term use.
But I have not heard much about using the Gulf Stream to generate electricity. It is the largest most powerful "river" on earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream

and the boffins know it too... so it is inevitable that at some point it will be exploited once it becomes economically viable and the need to is present.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I think that possibly your expectation may be generous.

Consider a steam engine...if we were on the brink of building our first steam engine I wonder what our expectation as to efficiency might be compared to what a working unit delivers.

I was about to curse you for raising this idea as I find so much of my thinking has me preoccupied now upon this matter but instead I thank you as I find my old mind is working very hard on a solution.

I have thought about so many approaches but the prospect of no free lunch slams the door.

In an effort to create a harvestable flow I even considered having two columns of water one of sea water one of fresh water presuming that there may be a difference in pressure between the two such that the sea water would flow to the fresh water side... but even if this was the result we would reach a point where the pressure would equalise and we would have to man the pumps.

Then it occurred to me...necessity is often the mother of invention and necessity tolerated the very inefficient steam engine, which I recall is only 3%, so perhaps thinking about the necessity can find an application that tolerates the inefficency expected in your system, such that any inefficiency is tolerated because the necessity is addressed better than current propositions....and I am thinking oil rigs as a potential market.

So I conclude that, now having determined we may have energy potential what job can your system do that enables us to tolerate the inefficiency.
We tolerate inefficiency in our cars for example because they do their job.
Alex

If the process is founded then making use of obsolete oil rigs is a great idea......or even other uses for the old rigs could be found using other energy collecting processes. Good thinking!!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Then it occurred to me...necessity is often the mother of invention and necessity tolerated the very inefficient steam engine, which I recall is only 3%, so perhaps thinking about the necessity can find an application that tolerates the inefficency expected in your system, such that any inefficiency is tolerated because the necessity is addressed better than current propositions....and I am thinking oil rigs as a potential market.

Make great thread topic... go for it!
Re-purposing obsolete oil rigs - alternative energy, or something like that...

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

If the process is founded then making use of obsolete oil rigs is a great idea......or even other uses for the old rigs could be found using other energy collecting processes. Good thinking!!

You give me credit where it is not due as what I had in mind was some system that they would buy
So you have the credit...good thinking.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Make great thread topic... go for it!
Re-purposing obsolete oil rigs - alternative energy, or something like that...

Well it is your idea.
However an oil rig could harvest wave energy and even tidal energy to run the pumps in a system below...
Alex

 

[Write4U]

If the process is founded then making use of obsolete oil rigs is a great idea......or even other uses for the old rigs could be found using other energy collecting processes. Good thinking!!

A little aside.
I read that old smelters make excellent battery recycling plants.

Moreover,

This is a list of energy storage projects worldwide, other than pumped hydro storage. Many individual energy storage projects augment electrical grids by capturing excess electrical energy during periods of low demand and storing it in other forms until needed on an electrical grid. The energy is later converted back to its electrical form and returned to the grid as needed. Most of the world's grid energy storage by capacity is in the form of pumped-storage hydroelectricity, which is covered in List of pumped-storage hydroelectric power stations. This article list projects using all other forms of energy storage....more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects

 

[Quantum Quack]

Well it is your idea.
However an oil rig could harvest wave energy and even tidal energy to run the pumps in a system below...
Alex

and be a solar collector and a wind collector as well....
After all it is already there and probably more expensive to salvage than sink. So having a floating platform out in the middle of nowhere collecting energy from multiple sources needs only to pay for ongoing logistics and maintenance costs...+ device installation costs.

Comparison value:
1 barrel of oil ( 160 liter ) returns on average 1699.41 kwh

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

and be a solar collector and a wind collector as well....
After all it is already there and probably more expensive to salvage than sink. So having a floating platform out in the middle of nowhere collecting energy from multiple sources needs only to pay for ongoing logistics and maintenance costs...+ device installation costs.

Comparison value:
1 barrel of oil ( 160 liter ) returns on average 1699.41 kwh

Coming from a real estate business I see as well luxury housing and a marina that holds the luxury boats as it is raised in bad weather...the vision I have is unbelievable...I will need high pressure air chambers on the Ocean flood to assist in recharging the private electric submarines that belong to guests or house and apartment owners who like to investigate the amazing marine life attracted by the treated sewerage providing a reliable food chain to help feed the fish that are being farmed in the enclosure formed by the platforms legs.
Alex

 

[billvon]

From the illustration of the patent I am investigating, the seawater flows into empty (air vented) tailwater tanks.
That is the least amount of resistance possible. The problem is that when the tanks are full with seawater, they need to be pumped out regularly to offer continual tailwater space.

Exactly like a pumped storage system.

 

[Write4U]

Exactly like a pumped storage system.

That generality confuses me. Are you speaking of pumping water in, or pumping water out?
Obviously if you are pumping something in or out you cannot generate electricity either way. The electricity is created by the kinetic flow (pressure) through a turbine. That does not require pumping.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

A question? I have my reasons to ask and I assure honorable members that my question, depending on the answer, may contribute to whatever invention that may be growing here.

My question.
Would a submarine travel more efficiently in one of the following situations.

Sub A travels at 100 ft and sub B at 2000ft which will make the "better" progress?

Will density and pressure for sub B be overcome by presumably with its props maybe having better purchase due to condition of higher density and pressure?
Alex

 

[billvon]

That generality confuses me. Are you speaking of pumping water in, or pumping water out?

Both, of course. They are the same.

Obviously if you are pumping something in or out you cannot generate electricity either way.

Not net. You can do that and store the potential energy for later - like these guys want to do.

 

[Write4U]

Both, of course. They are the same.

I dont see that. When you have to pump something it doesn't generate electricity, it uses electricity. How can you generate electricity (not energy) when you have to use electricity to pump? If you mean storing energy by pumping and creating say hydraulic pressure , sure but that's not what that system does. The pressure already exists in the ocean headwater. When you open the valve the water forceflows with enormous kinetic pressure through the turbine which generates electricity which is directly fed to the surface grid, and does not store anything into the tailwater storage escept tailwater, until the tail water in the tank equals the ocean pressure. This electricity is free, no pumping involved. What uses electricity is pumping out the stored tailwater back into the ocean and creating an empty tailwater storage for the next pressurized ocean water to forceflow in and activating the turbine generator.

Not net. You can do that and store the potential energy for later - like these guys want to do.

I don't think so. This is what I have been saying. They don't want to store anything at all, they want to directly generate electricity and transmit it to the surface grid. This is done by using the ocean's natural kinetic water pressure to rune the turbine generator. The tailwater tanks don't store any energy, they fill until their pressure equals that of the exterior ocean. Then they get pumped out without generating anything for creating empty space, which allows for the next batch of electricity to be generated by inflowing (not in-pumping) ocean water.

There is no pumping to create pressure or storing energy at anytime.only to empty the filled tanks back into the ocean..