Pressure Harvesting - from ocean depths

Answer: the vvv only works once.
yep...
questions yet to be addressed properly beyond wild hysterics.
  • How much would it cost to bring it back to the surface and go again?
  • Include the energy it generates due to it's descent using a generator. ( rock and a hole scenario )
  • How much supplementary green energy do you need to retrieve the empty VVSS?
  • Remember you are acquiring totally green high density energy potential
  • Remember no free ride....
If every cycle delivered 1000 cubic meters of 35000kPa compressed air ported to the surface, would it be energy cost effective?
 
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yep...
questions yet to be addressed properly beyond wild hysterics.
  • How much would it cost to bring it back to the surface and go again?
  • Include the energy it generates due to it's descent using a generator. ( rock and a hole scenario )
  • How much supplementary green energy do you need to retrieve the VVSS?
  • Remember you are acquiring totally green high density energy potential
  • Remember no free ride....
Interesting that you use a generator in your scenario.

Throw away everything else in your scenario, leave the generator on the shore, and use it to pressurize a cannister.
You save all the cost of those 99% things you don't need.
And you get to keep all the energy wasted by every extra component you no longer need.

The fact that your own scenario is demonstrably more wasteful and costly than one of its own components that can do the same job is proof-by-contradiction that the idea can't get more efficient but only less efficient - no matter how many more valves and hoses you attach.


Instead what you have done above is built a Rube Goldberg device.
 
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From surface to 3000 meters and back to surface:
--[-----v------] 0 at surface
---[-----------] 1000 meters
-----[---------] 2000meters
------[--------] 3000meters
-------------[-] ==>------[-------] transfer air pressure to surface. (4388psi)
-------------[-] 3000 depleted of air pressure
-------------[-] 2000
-------------[-] 1000
-------------[-] 0 at surface

Shows
  • A collapsing volume to the depth of 3000 meters. (4388 psi)
  • The transfer of pressurized air to the surface (4288psi)
  • The retrieval of the vessel with out any air volume gained or remaining.
 
Interesting that you use a generator in your scenario.

Throw away everything else in your scenario, leave the generator on the shore, and use it to pressurize a cannister.
You save all the cost of those things you don't need. You save the ship, the crew and the expedition.
And you get to keep all the energy wasted by every extra component you no longer need.

The fact that your own scenario is demonstrably more wasteful and costly than one of its own components that can do the same job is proof-by-contradiction that the idea can't work, no matter how many more valves and hoses you attach.


Instead what you have done above is built a Rube Goldberg device.
not at all...
the idea is to exploit the high pressure at depth by using the weight of the VVSS and the oceans water... no generator needed and as you have stated this can only happen once.
Sink it once and gain 1000 m^3 of 4,388psi @ 3000meters
( it could be 10,000 m^3 or more at 15,750 psi if you want to get ambitious - Mariana Trench.)
Use a generator to supplement retrieval and you can do it again...
The key benefit is that it is entirely green high density energy exploitation.
The sort of density/time that you can only get from Coal or Nuclear...


and because pressures are equalized all the way down the VVSS could be made easily even using biodegradable materials..with a simple bladder system. It only has to be heavy enough to sink. The weight could also be made variable, as it would gain weight as it sinks due to loss of displacement.
 
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you only have potential to do work.
No, you don't know that yet.

Let's say you have an incompressible liquid at 1000psi. Then you have zero potential energy.
Let's say you have a tank of 1000psi air - and it is in an environment with 1000psi air. Then you also have zero potential energy.

So to continue to answer the question, you have to know that it is:

1) A compressible gas. (Can also be a compressible liquid, but that's going to be a different set of calculations.)
2) A gas that is at a different pressure than ambient (or "the other side" or whatever you want to call the environment you are going to release it into.) Usually this is assumed to be effectively infinite, like our atmosphere.

Now you can calculate potential energy. We will assume isothermal expansion (i.e. released slowly enough that the temperature on both sides remains unchanged.) In that case, at 25C, the available energy is 110 ln(PA/PB) kJ/m³, where PA is the tank pressure and PB is the ambient pressure.
 
not at all...
the idea is to exploit the high pressure at depth by using the weight of the VVSS and the oceans water... no generator needed and as you have stated this can only happen once.
Sink it once and gain 1000 m^3 of 4,388psi @ 3000meters
( it could be 10,000 m^3 or more at 15,750 psi if you want to get ambitious - Mariana Trench.)
Use a generator to supplement retrieval and you can do it again...
The key benefit is that it is entirely green high density energy exploitation.
The sort of density/time that you can only get from Coal or Nuclear...

OK. you have made this same basic error too many times to be taken seriously.
You haven't the faintest idea how energy balances work, despite hundreds of posts over 20+ pages to educate you.

It is abundantly clear to conclude you are just fooling around - simply trolling to see how long you can keep this idiocy going.

More power to you.

Over and out.
 
OK. you have made this same basic error too many times to be taken seriously.
You haven't the faintest idea how energy balances work, despite hundreds of posts over 20+ pages to educate you.

It is abundantly clear to conclude you are just fooling around - simply trolling to see how long you can keep this idiocy going.

More power to you.

Over and out.
You still haven't described the error in away than makes sense...
 
Now you can calculate potential energy. We will assume isothermal expansion (i.e. released slowly enough that the temperature on both sides remains unchanged.) In that case, at 25C, the available energy is 110 ln(PA/PB) kJ/m³, where PA is the tank pressure and PB is the ambient pressure.
ok maximize thermal efficiency..
go for it...
1m^3 of 1000psi

If you show your workings I might be able to learn some math...
 
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and just to clarify
what sort of energy is involved in a container with 1 m^3 of pressure in it? ( no flow)
Dude. We're 400+ posts in to explaining this - very carefully using small words. That's on you.

Maybe pick up a book.
You still haven't described the error in a way than makes sense...

Q-reeus explained it all quite well... thanks to his generosity.
I and others look forward to reading more of his posts on the matter...
 
Dude. We're 400+ posts in to explaining this - very carefully using small words. That's on you.

Maybe pick up a book.
yep you have made a significant number of posts and still haven't worked out what it is you are upset about...

when you work it out I am all ears...
 
yep... an exercise in futility for sure...
so what's the difference between a variable volume vessel and your fixed volume vessel?
Answer: you don't need to push it down...

Answer: the vvv only works once.

Sorry, I don't know what this variable volume vessel is, but if it only works once, then I can adapt my scenario to something that only works once.

Simply attach a 261 pound weight to the bottom of my my 2" diameter tube, and the weight will pull the tube down to 200 feet depth. That lets you collect the air pressure in the tank, and then you could disconnect the weight, and let it drop to the bottom of the ocean. That would harvest some energy as stored air pressure, but it also takes energy to pick up the weight, put it on a boat, and cruise the boat out to sea. So I don't know if there will be any net gain or not. But if you do it enough times, you will eventually displace the sea and cause flooding on the shores.

But I will give you perhaps more credit than others are giving you, there might be something to this, especially if it were utilized in conjunction with filling parts of water bodies that needed to be filled anyway. I don't know though...
 
Sorry, I don't know what this variable volume vessel is, but if it only works once, then I can adapt my scenario to something that only works once.

Simply attach a 261 pound weight to the bottom of my my 2" diameter tube, and the weight will pull the tube down to 200 feet depth. That lets you collect the air pressure in the tank, and then you could disconnect the weight, and let it drop to the bottom of the ocean. That would harvest some energy as stored air pressure, but it also takes energy to pick up the weight, put it on a boat, and cruise the boat out to sea. So I don't know if there will be any net gain or not. But if you do it enough times, you will eventually displace the sea and cause flooding on the shores.

But I will give you perhaps more credit than others are giving you, there might be something to this, especially if it were utilized in conjunction with filling parts of water bodies that needed to be filled anyway. I don't know though...
Thanks Ned,
The easiest way is to use something you are familiar with...
Try:
Bicycle tyre pump.
pump02.png

Get a pump,
  • Extend the plunger to it's max
  • Fit a a long semi rigid hose to the outlet connect the open end to a tank on the surface. Have a tap that is closed.
  • Throw the bike pump into water with say a depth of 3000 meters.
  • If it doesn't sink add enough weight to it so it can sink.

As it sinks the plunger will be forced to compress the air in the pump due to water pressure increasing as the pump sinks to 1000 meters.
The volume of the pumps storage is gradually getting smaller as the air is compressed.
When it gets to 3000 meters the compressed air should be showing about 4388psi with in a small volume.
Next:
  • release the tap on the surface.
  • transfer the small volume of 4388psi to the surface storage container.

Now you can either abandon the pump and leave it at 3000 meters or spend energy retrieving it.

if you can follow the text description below:

From surface to 3000 meters and back to surface:
--[-----v------] 0 at surface
---[-----------] 1000 meters
-----[---------] 2000meters
------[--------] 3000meters
-------------[-] ==>------[-------] transfer air pressure to surface. (4388psi)
-------------[-] 3000 depleted of air pressure
-------------[-] 2000
-------------[-] 1000
-------------[-] 0 at surface

Shows
  • A collapsing volume to the depth of 3000 meters. (4388 psi)
  • The transfer of pressurized air to the surface (4288psi)
  • The retrieval of the vessel with out any air volume gained or remaining.
Hope this helps explain a Variable Volume Storage System (VVSS)
 
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Thanks Ned,
The easiest way is to use something you are familiar with...
Try:
Bicycle tyre pump.

The tyre pump will not stroke inward under the ocean's pressure, because of Pascal's law. There will be as much pressure on the underside of the pump handle as there is on the top part of the handle that you normally push.

My arrangement would work, and you can still choose to either leave the weight at the bottom of the sea, or retrieve it. Obviously it would take less energy to leave it.
 
DaveC426913, billvon
Now the key argument about energy economics is:
That to retrieve the VVSS you will have to expend energy equivalent to the energy gained so net gain is less than zero.

This argument assumes that
  1. the vessel is to be retrieved which it may not be..
  2. that the vessels descent is not generating (gen set) energy by virtue of it's weight accelerating down as it sinks that could be used to supplement the energy required to retrieve the VVS.

Does that sum it up?
 
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The tyre pump will not collapse under the ocean's pressure, because of Pascal's law. There will be as much pressure on the underside of the pump handle as there is on the top part of the handle that you normally push. Is this really the level of understanding that you are bringing to this topic?

My arrangement would work, and you can still choose to either leave the weight at the bottom of the sea, or retrieve it. Obviously it would take less energy to leave it.
yes your arrangement would work as well if the tube allowed pressure to effect the air contained ( VVSS) and if you port the pressure gained to the surface while the tube is at depth.
When you compress air you reduce it's volume...
but your assessment of the pump is wrong and if you can not see that then we have little more to discuss..
 
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You are correct.
Let me ask you what you think about this statement.
The op asks if energy can be harvested from the pressure under water. I say that any energy taken out in any exercise will be less than the energy put into the system that enables the harvesting system to work.
Alex
That's true, there will always be loss , so it depends on the abundance of free power to offset any costs. We are already using several natural pressure energy sources with good result. Tidal pressure , wind pressure , gravity fed lake water pressure, river pressure. Once the initial cost of installation has been recovered, those systems can yield low-cost high yield results over long periods of time. Only maintenance is required.

But as with any artificial altering of the natural environment there will almost always be secondary detrimental effects, which is demonstrated by the long term effects on rivers from dams.

However any long term low impact gain from a renewable resource would be preferable over a short term high gain from a high impact non-renewable resource. This is what's facing us today as the end of oil is in sight.

I see no reason why underwater pressure cannot be used if a low pressure area can be made underwater so that a kinetic flow force can be facilitated. The ocean's headwater pressure is free, but we need to provide a space for that pressure to flow to. And creating that low-pressure tailwater space has a cost, it requires the outpumping of water from large tailwater storage tanks. So the problem is if the cost can be offset by the gain.

The system that I am looking at suggests that its pumping costs can be offset by supplemental low cost excess surface wind energy or solar power to supplement the intermittend pumping energy required to create (maintain) low pressure "tail water" areas, which can accommodate the flow .

The inventors do not claim a high yield return, but as a night time addition to daytime solar power, the ocean would provide an unlimited supply of potential kinetic water pressure.

I wonder if there are narrow areas in the gulf stream that would provide sufficient pressure to drive any generators.
As I understand it, in the mountains there are several valleys which provide an constant increased uni-directional windflow , which drive high yield windmills.

If we could find underwater "gullies" where the gulf stream provides high pressure flow, that would be ideal places to install submarine electricicity generating turbines.

How fast is the Gulf Stream?
The Gulf Stream is an intense, warm ocean current in the western North Atlantic Ocean. It moves north along the coast of Florida and then turns eastward off of North Carolina, flowing northeast across the Atlantic.
Off the Atlantic seaboard of the United States, the Gulf Stream flows at a rate nearly 300 times faster than the typical flow of the Amazon River. The velocity of the current is fastest near the surface, with the maximum speed typically about 5.6 miles per hour (nine kilometers per hour). The average speed of the Gulf Stream, however, is four miles per hour (6.4 kilometers per hour). The current slows to a speed of about one mile per hour (1.6 kilometers per hour) as it widens to the north.

gulfstreamspeed.jpg


The Gulf Stream Current—the main conveyor of heat from south to north in the Atlantic—swirls surface waters in this infrared image from the Suomi NPP satellite on April 16, 2013, centered around 180 miles due east of Atlantic City, NJ.


https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/gulfstreamspeed.html

Can we build underwater "funnels" with generators in places of fast gulf stream flow. Kind of underwater funnelling dams? That would certainly create subsurface ocean high pressure headwaters and low pressure tail waters. Place several generators in the middle of that increased flow and presto cheap electricity!
 
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