Pressure Harvesting - from ocean depths

[billvon]

Yes. you can use the turbines used for generating the power from the inflow for pumping the water back out . Of course that will use some energy , but you can use battery storage for that which will charge again during the inflow.

Agreed. And once the batteries run out, then the system stops. You will ALWAYS ALWAYS need to put in more energy than you get out.

Did you read the article?

How do submarines do it when they are sumberged for months at a time?

They release air from compressed air storage tanks to ascend, and pump it back in to descend.

Of course they use energy, but the system works. The rest is a matter of efficiency.

Agreed.

Are you comparing the kinetic energy of a rock with an electric feed to a reversible electric motor/generator?

Not at all.

1) A rock just sitting there has no kinetic energy. It only has potential energy.
2) A motor/generator has no potential OR kinetic energy from the point of view of either system. It just converts mechanical energy to electrical and vice versa.

Why don't you read the links I provide.

I did. Why didn't you read them before you posted them?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes. you can use the turbines used for generating the power from the inflow for pumping the water back out . Of course that will use some energy

Do you honestly think it takes less energy to pump it out as it did to get it in?
Because if so, you've just invented a free energy device.

It is not a generator. It is a storage device.

How do submarines do it when they are sumberged for months at a time? Of course they use energy, but the system works. The rest is a matter of efficiency.

You are still confusing a battery with a generator.

Are you comparing the kinetic energy of a rock with an electric feed to a reversible electric motor/generator?

The energy of a rock is completely reversible.

By lifting it back to the top of a cliff you convert kinetic energy back into potential energy.

Why don't you read the links I provide. You are making a lot of false assumptions due my abbreviated version. The Germans have a patent on a functional system. Are you not interested in finding out how it works or are you gonna argue with me about it? I brought you the infomation, I am the messenger, don't ask me about the details of the message.

It is not helpful to provide links to things that you don't understand and can't defend.

You are confusing energy storage devices with energy generation devices.

 

[DaveC426913]

1) A rock just sitting there has no kinetic energy. It only has potential energy.

Well, potential energy is relative.
At the top of the cliff it has potential energy relative to the ground below.
At the bottom of the cliff it has zero potential energy wrt the ground.
Though could say it has potential energy relative to the beach 20 feet down hill, or to the deep beyond the reef...

But you know that. Carry on.

 

[Write4U]

Of course it does.
A lot of mistakes there.

By whom? The German patent?

First you have to get the empty chambers down there, which would be pretty hard if they are large. So most likely they are sent to the bottom partially or completely flooded, so that they sink. Then they have to be pumped out, with the water replaced by air (not vacuum.) Then they can be used for energy generation, until the tanks are full of water.

So a battery will offer sufficient energy to pump out the water once the chamber is anchored on the bottom. The water is replaced by air from airpipe to the surface the surface.
When the electricity is generated during the refilling of the tank, some of that can be diverted to the installed battery for use pumping the water out after the tank has filled.

The airpipe is to provide surface pressure to the tanks, so they see a low pressure. The pumps at the bottom then pump out the water. A pump at the top cannot physically pump the water of a deep well.

Right the turbine which generates electricity during the water in-flow can be reversed and used to pump out the water in the tank.

Because it requires a lot of energy (in the form of compressed air or pumps) to cause a submarine to rise.

Nothing gets compressed. In-flow is from exterior ocean pressure, out-flow is pumped using battery power and surface pressure from the airpipe. Any additional energy which may be needed can be provided by electricity fed from the surface.

Note that the article does not claim that this is a replacement for continuous use, but is a supplemental source of energy when say there is no wind to power surface windmills and occasionally at times of surface peak energy usage .
As you noted it is basically an instantaneous energy source from large installations to small sytems for individual use.
The main point is that it is a portable functional system with few non-polluting components and easy to operate, and self-sufficient, once installed.

Also note that is does not need extreme depth to offer a useable supply of renewable energy . I find this a very exciting development of a military application for commercial or personal use.

 

[billvon]

So a battery will offer sufficient energy to pump out the water once the chamber is anchored on the bottom. The water is replaced by air from airpipe to the surface the surface.
When the electricity is generated during the refilling of the tank, some of that can be diverted to the installed battery for use pumping the water out after the tank has filled.

It will never fully replace the energy needed to pump out the tank. But why would you use batteries? This thing IS a battery, specifically an ESS (energy storage system.)

Right the turbine which generates electricity during the water in-flow can be reversed and used to pump out the water in the tank. Nothing gets compressed. In-flow is from exterior ocean pressure, out-flow is pumped using battery power and surface pressure from the airpipe. Any additional energy which may be needed can be provided by electricity fed from the surface.

You didn't read the article, did you.

Also note that is does not need extreme depth to offer a useable supply of renewable energy .

It is not a source of renewable energy. It is a battery.

 

[Write4U]

Do you honestly think it takes less energy to pump it out as it did to get it in? Because if so, you've just invented a free energy device.

It takes no energy to pump anything in. It generates energy from inflow of water into an empty tank driving a turbine generator during that process. OK?

It is not a generator. It is a storage device.

No it is not, when empty it doesn't store anything. When you open the valve to let the water flow in, it drives a generator which will instantly provide energy to the surface.

You are still confusing a battery with a generator.

No I am not, you are. Any battery would be used for pumping the water out of the tank using the reversible generator as the pumping device.

The energy of a rock is completely reversible

The rock can be used to anchor the tank to the ocean bottom, free of any energy expense. Why do you persist with your rock?

By lifting it back to the top of a cliff you convert kinetic energy back into potential energy.

Yes but that is not using the ocean as the source of energy. C'mon Dave, forget that stupid rock.

It is not helpful to provide links to things that you don't understand and can't defend.

Oh I am defending the system just fine. It is you who seems to have no clue as to what they're talking about. Which is understandable, because you obviously have not read the article from this respectable science magazine. You are arguing from ignorance.

You are confusing energy storage devices with energy generation devices.

Oh, please.

 

[Write4U]

It is not a source of renewable energy. It is a battery

No it is not. The ocean pressure is the potential for energy . If you want to call the ocean the battery you're welcome, but you're wrong. No energy gets stored, when the water flows in the generated energy is immediately transferred to the surface, until the tank is full and the water needs to be pumped out. Once the tank is empty the ocean is constantly knocking at the door to be let in, but that is not the force that generates the energy. The generator is the water driven turbine, which functions by the kinetic force of the inflowing water, no different than a gravity water fed generator on land. Instead of using gravity, this system uses ocean pressure to drive the generator. The generator can be reversed and used as a pump to pump the water out of the tank when it has filled and cannot accommodate more water.
All this is at the bottom of the ocean.

The only things sticking out the ocean surface are an airpipe and an electric wire. That's it.
Everything else is under the surface.

 

[billvon]

No it is not.

Yes it is. It is a storage system. Read the article.

The generator is the water driven turbine, which functions by the kinetic force of the inflowing water, no different than a gravity water fed generator on land. Instead of using gravity, this system uses ocean pressure to drive the generator. The generator can be reversed and used as a pump to pump the water out of the tank when it has filled and cannot accommodate more water.

That is exactly right. This is no different than a pumped hydro storage system, which is also effectively a big battery. We've built those; google Raccoon Mountain Pumped Storage Plant. Note the very important phrase there - "pumped storage plant." Not power plant, storage plant. It takes energy in and stores it, then releases it (minus a little bit due to losses) later.

The Subhydro system is EXACTLY THE SAME. Same principle, same parts, same function.

 

[DaveC426913]

The generator can be reversed and used as a pump to pump the water out of the tank when it has filled and cannot accommodate more water.

Guess how much energy it takes to pump that water out of the tank?
That's right. More than you got with your generators.

I find it hard to believe you're serious.
This is thermodynamics 101.

You guys are practically describing every perpetual motion device that ever failed.

 

[Write4U]

Did you read the article?

Yes and I answered the question, The tanks do not store anything. It is the ocean being used as the energy storing medium. Energy is not generated until the valve is opened and ocean water flows into the empty tanks. Only at that point is energy generated and transferred to the surface.

The energy storage medium is the ocean. If you want to add arrays of underwater batteries to actually store electricity , that would be possible, but why store electricity underwater when you can transfer it immediately to batteries on land? The tanks do not store anything, they are empty and anchored to the sea bottom.

Read the article again . Does it say where it stores the energy, other than the ocean itself.?

This headline identifies the bottom of the ocean as the energy storage medium;
Using Water Pressure at the Bottom of the Ocean to Store Energy
(this should have read "to generate energy")

Where do they store that energy, other than as the ocean's water pressure itself at the bottom of the ocean? Can you tell me?

 

[DaveC426913]

The tanks do not store anything. It is the ocean being used as the energy storing medium. Energy is not generated until the valve is opened and ocean water flows into the empty tanks. Only at that point is energy generated and transferred to the surface.

and it takes the same amount of energy input to reset the system back to its usable state.

A device that outputs as much energy as it requires as input is not an energy generator; it is a battery.

You might as well say your phone battery "generates" electricity. No. You input energy and store it chemically.

 

[billvon]

Yes and I answered the question, The tanks do not store anything. It is the ocean being used as the energy storing medium.

Yes, the energy is stored in the potential difference between the water and the air below. Exactly like the Raccoon Mountain Pumped Storage Plant.

Where do they store that energy? Can you tell me?

In the potential difference between where the water is and the place that the water flows into. Like every pumped storage facility in the world.

but why store electricity underwater when you can transfer it immediately to batteries on land?

Because batteries are expensive. These people hope that the Subhydro system will be less expensive than batteries. However, if the system is not less expensive than batteries, then it will fail, because it cannot generate any energy - only store it.

It's amazing that you don't get this. It's Thermo 101.

 

[Write4U]

Yes, the energy is stored in the potential difference between the water and the air below. Exactly like the Raccoon Mountain Pumped Storage Plant.

It is not "water and the air below" see the illustration. That would be gravity feed, this is horizontal pressure feed .

In the potential difference between where the water is and the place that the water flows into. Like every pumped storage facility in the world.

yep, just like a mountain lake is an energy storage medium. Except this does not use gravity feed, it uses pressure feed.

Because batteries are expensive. These people hope that the Subhydro system will be less expensive than batteries. However, if the system is not less expensive than batteries, then it will fail, because it cannot generate any energy - only store it.

But they don't use batteries, other than a single battery to pump the water out of the filled tanks back into the ocean. The energy produced from pressure inflow is directly transferred to the surface to perform whatever function people want to use it for.

It's amazing that you don't get this. It's Thermo 101.

I get it, you dont'. And if this is such common use, how can this German company get a patent for the system. You may have read all those other methods, but none are the same as this underwater system . Read it again . You are missing the novel approach.

 

[DaveC426913]

I get it, you dont'.

Uh... you've already acknowledged you don't...

I brought you the infomation, I am the messenger, don't ask me about the details of the message.

 

[DaveC426913]

Using Water Pressure at the Bottom of the Ocean to Store Energy

 

[DaveC426913]

OK. physics 101.

If you extract the energy by lowering a 1kg weight by 1m, you will (theoretically) be able to get x Joules out of it.
How much energy do you think it takes to lift that 1kg back up to 1m?
That's right. x Joules (and we're even give you friction losses for free).

A system (ANY system, no matter how simple or complicated) that raises and lowers a weight over and over again will not produce more energy than you put into it.

It really can't get much simpler than that. If you don't grasp that, there's no much else we can do.

 

[Write4U]

and it takes the same amount of energy input to reset the system back to its usable state.

A device that outputs as much energy as it requires as input is not an energy generator; it is a battery.

Not even wrong! Only a device that actually stores electricity is a battery.
No, a crank on a small generator generates electricity but is not a battery. A windmill is not a battery. The wind itself is not a battery. A mountain lake is not a battery. The ocean is not a battery!

You might as well say your phone battery "generates" electricity. You input energy and store it chemically.

What has that got to do with what we are talking about? There are no chemicals involved at all .

The system does not use batteries it uses only ocean pressure to generate electricity, it does not store electricity . The ocean does not store electricity. Ocean pressure has potential to be use as a source for energy.

You use the word battery incorrectly. The correct term in this context is "Potential"

 

[billvon]

It is not "water and the air below" see the illustration. That would be gravity feed, this is horizontal pressure feed .

No, it's gravity feed.
Here's the plan for Raccoon Mountain. Note that the tunnel that leads to the upper reservoir is horizontal. That does not mean it is "horizontal pressure feed." The energy still comes from the potential energy of the water in the top reservoir (i.e. from gravity.)

yep, just like a mountain lake is an energy storage medium. Except this does not use gravity feed, it uses pressure feed.

They are exactly the same.

But they don't use batteries, other than a single battery to pump the water out of the filled tanks back into the ocean.

No, they don't use batteries. They don't use a single battery to pump the water out of the filled tanks back into the ocean. In fact, if you had bothered to read the article, you would have noticed that they say their system has "no battery, chemistry problems, or life cycle issues other than wear and tear. "

The energy produced from pressure inflow is directly transferred to the surface to perform whatever function people want to use it for. I get it, you dont'. And if this is such common use, how can this German company get a patent for the system.

It is a patent for AN ENERGY STORAGE SYSTEM. It is not a patent for AN ENERGY GENERATION SYSTEM.

You may have read all those other methods, but none are the same as this underwater system .

It is identical in function to a pumped storage system.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Before we start dismissing novel ideas out of hand, lets examine current technology and research.

Using Water Pressure at the Bottom of the Ocean to Store Energy

Related article: Fuel Efficiency Boosted by New HydraGen Technology

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-...-the-Bottom-of-the-Ocean-to-Store-Energy.html

As I understand it this is not used for constant use, it is not efficient enough for this ,but is a natural storage of energy in case of shortage. The additionl energy for the pumps can be fed from excess wind mills piped down to power the pumps until presure tank is empty. Then, when needed the tank is opened and the inrushing water provides the kinetic power to generate electicity.

The main point is that nothing but electricity goes up and down. The power is generated at the ocean bottom.

If the Germans are involved, there has to be something promising to this system. They usually don't fool around with useless technology.

Now that's clever. But flawed, If I read correctly.

It is just an expensive form of pumped hydro or energy displacement system...

 

[DaveC426913]

Not even wrong! Only a device that actually stores electricity is a battery.
No, a crank on a small generator generates electricity but is not a battery. A windmill is not a battery. The wind itself is not a battery. A mountain lake is not a battery. The ocean is not a battery!
What has that got to do with what we are talking about? There are no chemicals involved at all .

The system does not use batteries it uses only ocean pressure to generate electricity, it does not store electricity . The ocean does not store electricity. Ocean pressure has potential to be use as a source for energy.

You use the word battery incorrectly. The correct term in this context is "Potential"

We have been talking about energy. It can be converted into and from electricity.

You cannot generate energy from ocean depth. You can use ocean depth to store energy that you can turn into electricity, but you must put energy into it.

This is quite annoying. You're hijacking the OP's thread with your own unrelated ideas that are merely confusing the issue.

The OP wanted to "harvest" pressure - i.e. get more than he put in.
The energy required to use the ocean to pressurize something is enough to simply pressurize the device without any ocean. The ocean becomes merely a very wasteful converter.