Prayer doesn't work

V

voice of reason

Registered Senior Member
I came across this article and I thought it might spark some discussion:

Prayer doesn't work.

I personally think that prayer is a completely placebo effect, this study seems to support that view. Also note that a diverse group of people were asked to pray for the patients in this study. Praying to Jesus or Allah made no difference: neither worked.
 
You have to admit that psychologically it can make people feel better, or even help them cope with whatevers affecting them.

But it worked for Homer....
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Homer was never poisoned. The Doctor said that a chance existed, and that it was a really big chance. As it would turn out the Doctor was wrong and the cook had cut the blowfish the right way. Besides, it’s a cartoon.

EDIT: Changed 'Coop' to 'cope'. My bad.
 
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Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
You have to admit that psychologically it can make people feel better, or even help them coop with whatevers affecting them.
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That's all that it is, a stress reliever....but sadly people depend too much on it. It's relying on your faith, it only helps cope with some of the stress because it gives them some hope but overall it does nothing really.



Homer was never poisoned. The Doctor said that a chance existed, and that it was a really big chance. As it would turn out the Doctor was wrong and the cook had cut the blowfish the right way. Besides, it’s a cartoon.
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Come on CC, he was joking......so were you?
 
Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
You have to admit that psychologically it can make people feel better, or even help them cope with whatevers affecting them.



Homer was never poisoned. The Doctor said that a chance existed, and that it was a really big chance. As it would turn out the Doctor was wrong and the cook had cut the blowfish the right way. Besides, it’s a cartoon.

EDIT: Changed 'Coop' to 'cope'. My bad.
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No, I'm talking about the episode when he got jelous of Flanders and started to pray and got all he wanted, including a new delicious dessert and even the church.
But cartoons are real!!!
 
You have to admit that psychologically it can make people feel better, or even help them cope with whatevers affecting them.
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I don't disagree with you. What you're describing is the placebo effect. Giving someone pez and calling them magic-fix-em-up pills is probably just as effective.
 
Softening the blow

What I find interesting is the amount of apologetics in the article. Out of a 415 word article 192 words (46%) were not about the study but were instead devoted to apologetics. I guess they need to be let down easy.

~Raithere
 
Good luck with the sell

We operate on greater faith in this country in real things. As the article noted:
The Rev Leslie Francis, professor of practical theology at the University of Wales, said two major studies, in 1988 and 1999, had found that prayer had a beneficial effect.

"In medical research one expects divergent results, so it is premature to affirm or dismiss the power of prayer in healing," he said. "But if the pharmaceutical industry was getting these sorts of results they would be investing a great of money in research."
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Now ... it's about what we would expect the good Reverend to say, I suppose. But it doesn't change the fact that he's got a point.

- http://www.noetic.org/ions/HTML/science/dh/media.html
- http://www.noetic.org/ions/new.html
- http://www.dosseydossey.com/larry/book.html (Note: I actually have a copy of Healing Words on the shelf, but I've never actually read the damn thing.)

I tend to think that any positive effects of prayer will be found to be psychological and psychosomatic. I know a post-Buddhist megalomaniac who asserts the kind of abstract effect for prayer that would come in easily under a very Western definition of magic which probably will not find its necessary physicial support in quantum and chaos theories. And while I accept the outside possibility that we can, in fact, broadcast our will, and in prayer or meditation focus and tune that output in order to accommodate certain needs . . . I still want to see the mechanical process described, and that's what nobody can do for prayer or magic or any of it.
 
Originally posted by voice of reason
I personally think that prayer is a completely placebo effect
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It is but they are equivalent. As such, prayer DOES work exactly as much as the placebo effect.

Further, it's possible that hope (the basis for prayer) can overcome certain aspects of reality. For instance if I'm drifting towards the falls on the river in a raft. If I have hope to inspire me, I might make it to shore. If I don't I will probably slide right over he waterfall, knowing I can't make it to shore. This can seem mysterious, as there is no complete explanation as to what the mind can and can't effect. Prayer relies on this mysterious quality to convince people something "supernatural" is occuring. Fact is, there's no such thing as supernatural - it's just that the boundaries of what 'natural' actually is aren't fully established.
 
All of you fail to take into account those instances where God did act after prayer (it's not prayer that works, it's God who answers). Prayer by itself might have a placebo effect, but that's not the point is it?

What do you make of it when nothing makes a difference, when nobody can help or provide any hope, and something happens after prayer? Do you say thank you, or do you think - contrary to all evidence or expectation you had before - it would have worked out anyway?

What should you believe when prayer did "work"?
 
/All of you fail to take into account those instances where God did act after prayer (it's not prayer that works, it's God who answers).

You are a wrong to presume god.

/Prayer by itself might have a placebo effect, but that's not the point is it?

You are a wrong to presume god.

/What do you make of it when nothing makes a difference, when nobody can help or provide any hope, and something happens after prayer?

You are a wrong to presume god.

/Do you say thank you, or do you think - contrary to all evidence or expectation you had before - it would have worked out anyway?

Arguments from god are unethical because they are authoritative (to fully assert it your opinion must be more important than those who disagree) and they are WRONG because the concept of god is unprovable either way and thus logically vacuous. Your presumption from authority is sickening to me.

/What should you believe when prayer did "work"?

You should believe that you are lucky to have gotten your wish. You can be thankful that you got your wish if you'd like. Technically and most poinyantly, you can obviously believe whatever you want. But failing to abstain judgement (regarding god(s)) makes you a presumptuous authoritarian. Obviously, you're okay with that.
 
Originally posted by wesmorris
You are a wrong to presume god.
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Prayer assumes God. Otherwise it is, as you say, a wish. The subject here is prayer.

Arguments from god are unethical because they are authoritative (to fully assert it your opinion must be more important than those who disagree) and they are WRONG because the concept of god is unprovable either way and thus logically vacuous. Your presumption from authority is sickening to me.
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I'm not presuming authority on anything. I made a statement and asked a question regarding prayer, which was within the limits of the discussion.

You should believe that you are lucky to have gotten your wish. You can be thankful that you got your wish if you'd like. Technically and most poinyantly, you can obviously believe whatever you want. But failing to abstain judgement (regarding god(s)) makes you a presumptuous authoritarian. Obviously, you're okay with that.
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If the subject was "do wishes work", your comments would have fit right in. Otherwise, you are off topic. Technically, you can believe what you want - but I didn't wish upon a star, I prayed to God.

If, however, you would like to start a thread on the existence of luck and the theory behind wishful thinking, I would be interested. And I won't care if you "presumed authority".
 
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Originally posted by Jenyar
Prayer assumes God. Otherwise it is, as you say, a wish. The subject here is prayer.

I'm not presuming authority on anything. I made a statement and asked a question regarding prayer, which was within the limits of the discussion.

If the subject was "do wishes work", your comments would have fit right in. Otherwise, you are off topic. Technically, you can believe what you want - but I didn't wish upon a star, I prayed to God.

If, however, you would like to start a thread on the existence of luck and the theory behind wishful thinking, I would be interested. And I won't care if you "presumed authority".
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M*W: Whether prayer presumes God answers you or if what you experience is no more than wishful thinking, they both work. It's a form of meditation--both positive proactive means of creative visualization, and neither are "wrong." There is no wrong way to pray. I've heard so many times someone say, "I don't know if I'm praying right." The concept here is NOT to pray to some Supreme Being "out there," but to pray "within." Either way is NOT wrong, but "internal prayer" works much better! Remember, YOU are never given a wish without also being given the POWER to make it come true. I believe in this. It works for me. I've always been the "luckiest" person I know. Good things just fall into my lap, and sometimes I can't even believe they really happen like that. I grieve over nothing. Everything is a blessing. Everything. I've heard people say, "I don't think God hears me." This is impossible since the One Spirit of God dwells within your very own soul, and inward thought and prayer is powerful. It's creative. It's reactive. When praying, it's so important to have "expectant faith." Don't pray but think negatively like "God isn't going to hear my prayer," or "I'm not sure if God will answer me." These are negative thoughts that places distance beween the individual and his higher power. This is absolutely something you would NOT want to do! Another thing to remember, to clear your soul of any negativity, you need to be forgiving and forgiven. It is so important to make a mental list and forgive every possible person for every possible reason you can think of. Also, most importantly, forgive YOURSELF for things you've done or failed to do! This will clear the way for your prayer to work. Try it! You just might be amazed at the power the One Spirit of God who dwells within you has given you!
 
Believe it or not I have read references to studies done with groups of patients some of whom knew they were being prayed for, some of whom did not know they were being prayed for, and a group that was not prayed for. Resulted indicated a better recovery rate in the group that was prayed for but did not know they were being prayed for than the group that no one was praying for. The group that knew they were being prayed for did best of all.
 
/Prayer assumes God. Otherwise it is, as you say, a wish. The subject here is prayer.

Why? I can "pray to god" without at all presuming god. It's an expression of hope.

/I'm not presuming authority on anything. I made a statement and asked a question regarding prayer, which was within the limits of the discussion.

Assertion of god is authoritative.

/If the subject was "do wishes work", your comments would have fit right in.

Wishes and prayers are in effect the same thing.

/Otherwise, you are off topic.

I disagree. I'm exactly on topic. You introduced the idea of god into this, I called you on it.

/Technically, you can believe what you want - but I didn't wish upon a star, I prayed to God.

That's fine, but to assert god is authoritative, as I've stated before. Technically god has nothing to do with this thread. it's about the power of prayer. Prayer is something people do.

/If, however, you would like to start a thread on the existence of luck and the theory behind wishful thinking, I would be interested.

I don't need to, this one will do fine.

/And I won't care if you "presumed authority".

So kind of you.
 
Believe it or not I have read references to studies done with groups of patients some of whom knew they were being prayed for, some of whom did not know they were being prayed for, and a group that was not prayed for. Resulted indicated a better recovery rate in the group that was prayed for but did not know they were being prayed for than the group that no one was praying for. The group that knew they were being prayed for did best of all.
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Could you post a link to that study? Thats the complete opposite of the conclusion of this study and I'd like to read it (if it exists).

M*W: I think you're slightly off topic. The study cited that started this thread had nothing to do with patients that themselves prayed, but rather with patients who were prayed for by others. I certainly agree with you that "prayer" (for me prayer takes the form of meditation) could be beneficial to the patient, I just don't believe that the prayer is answered in any way. Its the act of praying (meditation) that has an effect.
 
Voice of Reason,
This may come as a shock to you but some of us still read books and I recall seeing the information in a work on intution but can not recall the specifics.
If you are interested in the field you might try HEALING WORDS: THE POWER OF PRAYER AND THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE by Larry Dossey.
 
Candy,

This may come as a shock to you but some of us defer to proof as opposed to unsubstantiated claims from unknown persons. There's these powerful things called "search engines" that can help you find the specific evidence you're talking about.

How about instead of me buying the book you quote me the relevant passages.. then we could discuss them.

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing me that anything Larry Dossey says is based in fact and not a result of his wish to establish such connection. Larry Dossey is former co-chair of the panel on Mind/Body Interventions, Office of Alternative Medicine, National Institutes of Health. It would seem to me that he would have a vested interest in providing the link that you claim he does.
 
Originally posted by voice of reason
Could you post a link to that study? Thats the complete opposite of the conclusion of this study and I'd like to read it (if it exists).

M*W: I think you're slightly off topic. The study cited that started this thread had nothing to do with patients that themselves prayed, but rather with patients who were prayed for by others. I certainly agree with you that "prayer" (for me prayer takes the form of meditation) could be beneficial to the patient, I just don't believe that the prayer is answered in any way. Its the act of praying (meditation) that has an effect.
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M*W: Candy was the one who spoke of patients and prayers (although I am familiar with this topic). I agree with you, it's the "act" of positive thinking that does the job. Praying to a God somewhere "out there," well, don't hold your breath while you want for your distant God to answer!
 
but I didn't wish upon a star, I prayed to God.
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Is there any difference? It certainly doesn't seem so. Let me ask you Jenyar... What if 'wishing upon a star' did work? Would you then be sitting here, and in the same manner, telling everyone that a star is the cause of success? I guess, judging from your former posts, you would.

Would you thank the star if your day turned out ok 'cause you wished upon it?

Would you thank your fingers when your day turned out ok 'cause you crossed them?

Would you thank the salt when your day turned out ok 'cause you threw it over your shoulder?

Sure, any of these can help.. When i buy a lottery ticket I use a special coin, the head side only, i cross my fingers, scratch my nuts, hell any one of a million 'superstitions' that make me feel slightly more 'lucky' than if i didn't. However, all of them are in my head, same goes for everyone.

If that lottery ticket wins, it's simply because that was a winning lottery ticket. All the ball scratching or god praying in the world wont make the slightest bit of difference to that fact.

(it's not prayer that works, it's God who answers)
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You can be so silly at times.. :rolleyes:
 
candy and voice of reason:

Thus far, the weight of evidence has come down hard against the efficacy of intercessory prayer. While there a few studies that may possibly suggest a correlation, the results so far indicate that there is no statistical effect. Byrd's study is often referenced as evidential support of the efficacy of prayer but the study does not withstand scrutiny:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html

"While proponents have claimed it is a "landmark study" proving the effectiveness of prayer, others have found significant problems (for example, Irwin Tessman and Jack Tessman in ""Efficacy of Prayer: A Critical Examination of Claims,"" Skeptical Inquirer, March/April 2000). Specifically, while the test was supposed to be double-blind and the article describing it claimed it was, a number of investigators have found that this was not true. Byrd himself determined who did better, those who were prayed for or those who were not, and he determined it after he knew who was in which group. Furthermore, the coordinator of the study was not blinded. Double-blind studies are done so those running the experiments don't accidentally contaminate the results with their own viewpoints. The failure to properly blind this study calls the results into serious question."

Another popularly referenced study, titled "A Randomized Double-Blind Study of the Effect of Distant Healing in a Population With Advanced AIDS--Report of a Small Scale Study." was likewise found to be problematic:

http://skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson7.html

Here are some more sources:
http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/2001/dec/7612a1.pdf
http://members.aol.com/garypos/Harris_study.html

Though to be fair, here is a study (still under analysis) that might suggest that intercessory prayer aids in in-vitro fertilization:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011002065831.htm

~Raithere
 
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