Poor Aisha

DJSupreme23

neocortex activated
Registered Senior Member
Who is Aisha?

Aisha is the 5 year old girl, whom the found of Islam - Mohammed - craved to have sex with. And M. married Aisha at an age of 9, where she completed the "marriage duties". It's even cited in the Hadith:

***

Comment: When Muhammed was about 50 years old he had dreams of marrying a child, Aisha, who was only about 4-5 years old. How do we know this? Muhammed lived about 570 A.D. to 632 A.D., he became 62 years old. Hadith tells us that when he first slept with Aisha she was only nine years old, and that she then remained with him for the last nine years of his life. 62-9=53, so Muhammed was 53 years old when he first slept with the 9-year old child Aisha, who played with dolls... When he dreamed of marrying her she was six years old, or younger, so Muhammed was about 50 years old then. Why would a 50-year old man want a young child?

"...[T]he Prophet (Muhammed) said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:58:235)

"[T]he Prophet (Muhammed) married her (Aisha) when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64)

"Narrated 'Aisha: 'I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet (Muhammed) and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible).'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 1:4:229)


Comment: This hadith shows that, in contrast to what some people claim, the relationship between the old man Muhammed and young Aisha was more than the "father-daughter" kind.

"Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet (Muhammed), and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me."
(Hadith: Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151)



Comment: I'm not sure what the word "enter" refers to here...

"Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said to me, 'What type of lady have you married?' I replied, 'I have married a matron'. He said, 'Why, don't you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?' Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, 'Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'"
(Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)



Comment: Muhammed obviously prefered girls so young that they were still playing, i.e. he prefered children, and he seemed surprised that his friend Jabir bin 'Abdullah didn't.


***

The question arise: Did Mohammed just create Islam to get power and sex? I certainly get that feeling.
 
I love this shit (religion etc)! it's really interesting. Again, maybe it should be taken more literally?
 
I agree, Mucker. It's the second most interesting thing on Earth. The first, which is what we should truly be investigating, is our own ancient history. (Pyramids and the sort)

God
 
Aisha wanted Muhammed and gave him full consent. So first explain why this wrong in your moral system?
 
And?

I just don't see the significance of the point. On the one hand, there's incest and actual sexual atrocities endorsed in the Bible. To the other, the age of consent was 10 in parts of the United States into the nineteenth century (cf. Lysander Spooner, "Vices are not Crimes").

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Aisha wanted Muhammed and gave him full consent. So first explain why this wrong in your moral system?

Oh but of COURSE there is nothing wrong with sticking your dick into a 9 year old girl

NOT

ever heard of pedophilia? Are you one of those pedophilic RCC priests who got done? Congrats, then.
 
ever heard of pedophilia? Are you one of those pedophilic RCC priests who got done? Congrats, then
Pedophila is a modern psychological disorder. What this has to with Muhammed, I'm not sure. Muhammed's first wife was older than him. A pedophile would only prefer younger girls. I find african tribal mutilations distasteful, but not always morally wrong. Without being to prove it is morally wrong, there is less reason to believe that is wrong than to believe in God.

On the one hand, there's incest and actual sexual atrocities endorsed in the Bible.
I wouldn't say endorsed. Only happened or allowed to happen. Well God lets lot of sins happen and incest happens to be no different than the others. For example there is the story of Lot. Lot's daughters slept with him, but in reality this showed that Moabites and Ammonites, two of Israels enemies, originated from incest relationship. The passage in no way endorses incest, but shows the results of it.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
I wouldn't say endorsed. Only happened or allowed to happen. Well God lets lot of sins happen and incest happens to be no different than the others. For example there is the story of Lot. Lot's daughters slept with him, but in reality this showed that Moabites and Ammonites, two of Israels enemies, originated from incest relationship. The passage in no way endorses incest, but shows the results of it.

Tell that to Khomeni. The fatwa he declared did in no way forbid male abuse of females down to the age og 6.

I can provide the written text in arabic, if you wish.
 
Dont you get tired of yourself DJ ?

You know Im always very tired that with such arguments I always get someone who's willing to turn water to fire to prove his (oftenly unreasonable) point , be it from the one side or from the other .

So ill just leave it at this

Have fun being an Islamophobe Pete

Okinrus : Indeed what evidence is there for Aisha's age ?

find african tribal mutilations distasteful, but not always morally wrong.

I find African tribal morally wrong the following reason :
My ethical understanding deals with a relationship between the Good and the subject who experience it . To the mutilated female it is not good that she loses the ability to have sexual pleasure for which is a sensual Good . Another is that is disrupts the motivation for the circle of life that assures Good to actually exist (if peoples arent alive they cant experience something as good) .

A woman now will not have pleasure (good) in creating life , I believe this is disturbing the evolutionary proces .

Ibn Arabi considered the essence of Allah has the best potential to be revealed most complete in sexual intercourse , and I agree based on my previous reasoning .

Also , mutilation happens oftenly un-voluntary (duh) , and I do believe there is a point moral point involved there as well . I do not think that the girl in questions experiences good when such abuse is done against her will , all regardless of the later (unknown) effects . I know of Somali girls who have fled their family because of this , their psychological trauma of even the attempt is amazingly horrific .

So yes , I think it IS morally incorrect .
 
From what textbook do you derive 'modern' as an attribute of this disorder?
You misunderstand what I meant. In Muhammed's time there was no name for pedophiles. The label is a modern name for a pschological disorder. At the time of Muhammed, there was no such science of pschology.

I find African tribal morally wrong the following reason :
My ethical understanding deals with a relationship between the Good and the subject who experience it . To the mutilated female it is not good that she loses the ability to have sexual pleasure for which is a sensual Good . Another is that is disrupts the motivation for the circle of life that assures Good to actually exist (if peoples arent alive they cant experience something as good) .
You assumed that was talking only about sexual mutilations. There are some tribes that will deform the woman's lips in order to make her more attractive. In other countries, woman will cram their feet into tight shoes so that they look prettier. Without God truth cannot be obtained and certainly there is no moral truth. However most religions would consider these acts to be vanity and thus sinful.

Okinrus : Indeed what evidence is there for Aisha's age ?
Well I would not put any faith on Aisha's age. It seems that she was married at a young age but that hadith was probably narrated with some woman's gossip mixed in with jelousy between the other wives of Muhammed. However this must have been a culture norm. If it was considered sinful by the arab tribes, then I believe that they would have covered it up. Why woulda muslim disparage his faith in this way? Therefore we have to conclude that marrying 9 year old was acceptable or there was some mixup with her age.
 
Without God truth cannot be obtained and certainly there is no moral truth.

*I dont believe in deity's , truth can be obtained as God isnt anywhere but here & everywhere else .

*U assume I ment moral truth independant from a man's mind , which I never said . Moral truth lies in whats Good to a person , I believe those (and other non-genitalic) are not Good for that persons experience of life . But as its not genitalic and voluntary there might be a different perception from the subject .

For instance that feet-thing in China was considered very "fashionable"-like , the girls thought it was beautifull , but I do not believe a judgement of a child to be profound by definition , neither do i believe that without pressure they would actually sacrifice all the pain for their asthetic ideal .

Therefore we have to conclude that marrying 9 year old was acceptable or there was some mixup with her age.

I agree Hadith has no definite value of truth , many things might (and have) played along that totally distorts it .
 
Various

Zero

Rather than repeat myself, might I point to my post entitled "And?", which occurs right before you wrote ever heard of pedophilia?

Okinrus

In Genesis 19, Lot offers his daughters to a crowd to be gang-raped. In thanks for the kindness, Lot is warned of the impending destruction of the city and encouraged to flee. The Lord even sends angels to encourage Lot on his way. Of course, it's after this that the girls got him drunk.

Bottom line: gay sex is bad, but offering your daughters to be gang-raped is not, according to the Bible. And the Lord seems willing enough to let incest bring its own miseries.

How ... interesting.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
In Genesis 19, Lot offers his daughters to a crowd to be gang-raped. In thanks for the kindness, Lot is warned of the impending destruction of the city and encouraged to flee. The Lord even sends angels to encourage Lot on his way. Of course, it's after this that the girls got him drunk.

Bottom line: gay sex is bad, but offering your daughters to be gang-raped is not, according to the Bible. And the Lord seems willing enough to let incest bring its own miseries.
You assume that Lot is some sort of epic hero and whatever he says is perfectly correct. Lot only said this out of desperation. Also what does gay sex have anything to do with passage? I'm sure you know many gays who do not go around raping other men. Continuing the family line was much more important to the ancient hebrews than it is now. What Lot's daughters did was specifically done only for the purpose of procreating and not lust.
 
Well ....

Well, homosexuality is one of those things God creates but hates. Secondly, issues of consent don't really seem to be issues here, do they?

What makes Lot any less of a sinner, and therefore any more deserving of being spared, for advocating the rape of his daughters?

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Well, homosexuality is one of those things God creates but hates. Secondly, issues of consent don't really seem to be issues here, do they?
The homosexual act(this is only what the bible talks about) is not something that God created, but is chosen. And even if certain individuals are predisposed it is only consequence of Adam's choice. Many individuals are predisposed to anger, alcohol and drugs.

What makes Lot any less of a sinner, and therefore any more deserving of being spared, for advocating the rape of his daughters?
God does not punish every sin in this life. Yes, Lot is a sinner, but he is not wicked. The entire crowd had surrounded his house. Lot had three options.
1. Let the crowd kill him and then rape his daughters and visitors.
2. Hand over the men he had trusted to let stay with him.
3. Hand over his daughters, effectively his property at that time.
 
Okinrus

Thank you for making my point for me.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
You point does not follow. More clarification might be needed to what is the point? Ok, I can give you examples of where prostitution went unpunished. Just because God allowed sin does not mean that he endorses it.
 
Easy enough

More clarification might be needed to what is the point?
That the topic post addresses an issue of little comparative consequence. To the atheist with nothing better to do than look for yet another reason to bag on religions, sure, I suppose the topic issue has significance, but in any meaningful way ... well, somebody's going to have to fill me in because I don't see it.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Back
Top