Pentocostals in Indonesia

[Michael]

Christianity's Surge in Indonesia

Pentecostals are possibly the fastest viral religion on planet earth. Worse that any of the others in my mind.

They Christian proselytism nailed down (pardon the pun .
.... forgiveness, induced temporal lobe seizures (speaking in tongues), heaven, hell, rock bands, dancing, laying on hands, all of it. Imagine you're your average superstitious religious person. You attend a Pentecostal revival function. You start involuntary glossolalia. You're told it's the Holy Ghost speaking through you. Well, you'll be a believer and probably a hard core "on fire" for the Lord life-long one. Because your friends watched as you "channeled" the Spirit - they'll probably be convinced as well. I think it was the Greek Cult of Aries that first utilized this technique? I've seen it happen - more than once and I've been to Pentecostal churches.

It'll be interesting to see how this belief spreads and how it is accepted by the Muslim community. Especially as Muslims begin to convert. Which they are and will do so.

They flocked to the open field by the hundreds to praise Allah. In a village in central Java, just a few miles from where Indonesian special forces shot dead an Islamic terrorist linked to the fatal July bombings of two hotels in Jakarta, worshippers raised their hands to the heavens. But this ceremony, which took place as the call of the muezzin echoed in the sultry air, was not a celebration of Islam. Instead, in the heart of the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, Christians held a Pentecostal revival, complete with faith healing and speaking in tongues.

yeah, reading that article I could really remember the Pentecostal church we went to once in awhile for a couple years (until the Pastor got caught donking a church member - he also used to get stoned with my old man every couple weeks).


I was hoping Buddhism was be on the rise

Which is just silly, like contemplative meditation has any hope against hip-hop for J-dude rock concerts.

 

[Michael]

Permission to hold the meeting was only granted after the organizers put up a sign forbidding Muslims from entering. Nevertheless, among the line of sick and suffering hoping to be healed was an elderly Muslim man who others said was blind. After fervent prayers from worshippers in the driving rain, he suddenly blinked and gazed at the gathered crowd. "A Muslim who can now see," said pastor Jason Balompapueng, tears rising in his eyes. "It is a miracle." The faithful urged the tottering man onstage to bear witness to his regained sight. As the man clambered up the stairs, he removed his peci, an Indonesian fezlike hat often associated with Islam. A visiting minister from Jakarta blessed him. Another soul was saved, the Christian pastor rejoiced. Tomorrow, he vowed, there would be more.

Same old tricks. As if praying to Jesus is going to regrow retinal pathways - it's just ludicrous. INsanity.

You'd think after the Scientific revolution people would know better. But they don't. Which is why a significant number of people will need religion until we can guarantee a reasonably safe existence. Hence the popularity in poor developing nations where people are not safe, poor, and fall for this bunk.


That aside, now that I've actually read the entire article, I wonder, what are Muslim's doing pushing so hard? They keep that much pressure on and a certain demographic will want to convert simply because they can't stand to be told how to live their lives. I mean "No Muslim's Allowed" sign? THAT is a sure fire way to make Muslim youths want to join. Which is exactly what the Pentecostals want and know will happen.

Idiots....

 

[kira]

In my home country (Indonesia), every citizen should be belong to (and free to practice) the following 6 religions/beliefs only: Islam, Catholic Christianity, Protestant Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and Khonghucu/ Confucianism. Citizens officialy aren't allowed to be atheists or to practice other religions (other than the 6 above) according to the constitution which were established sometime after independence day (1945) and ratified in 1965. Note: it is only applied to CITIZENS. However, there is an on going discussion in the parlemen to remove this law, especially because the current leader (SBY) wanted to promote more tolerance towards other beliefs.

In my personal opinion, why fix things that aren't broke?? :shrug:

busy a bit, ciao

 

[Michael]

So what does a person who's atheist do? Just lie and pick a religion? Or what if you are a religion that isn't on the list? Surely Indonesian's can see how it would be unfair to legally restrict people's choice of belief ? What if you're a Shinto Japanese and marry an Indonesian and would like your kids to remain Shinto?

 

[Michael]

What if you're a Jedi of the Republic

 

[Medicine*Woman]

So what does a person who's atheist do? Just lie and pick a religion?

*************
M*W: No, he would need to be born in Africa as an Africian. He would be raised in Indonesia as a Muslim. He would be (let's go ahead and call a spade a spade...) a Communist Left-Wing Extremist elected POTUS of America.

 

[kira]

So what does a person who's atheist do? Just lie and pick a religion? Or what if you are a religion that isn't on the list? Surely Indonesian's can see how it would be unfair to legally restrict people's choice of belief ? What if you're a Shinto Japanese and marry an Indonesian and would like your kids to remain Shinto?

He can just leave the country j/k. This isn't accurately explain the law, but there is not many links that explain the topic in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

I'll try to translate a more accurate explanation about the religious law later.

What if you're a Jedi of the Republic

Then you can secretly worship The Force

*************
M*W: No, he would need to be born in Africa as an Africian. He would be raised in Indonesia as a Muslim. He would be (let's go ahead and call a spade a spade...) a Communist Left-Wing Extremist elected POTUS of America.

Haha.. more or less ^^. In Indonesia, religion is a mandatory subject taught from elementary school until the first year of University, at least in public schools. This means, during religion class hours, students are splitted into each relevant religion classes; muslims go to Islam class, christians go to Christianity class, and so on. It has EXAMS also, and the marks are also among other subjects like Maths in the national examination certificates.

The muslims gotta learn to read and write Arabic, to pray, and to answer related Islam knowledge. The christians gotta learn how to give and to ask for forgiveness, the concept of forgiveness, the history of messengers (I remember vaguely learning something about Yohannes), etc. I was raised both as christian and muslim, coz my parent were initially have different religion, and they can only get marriage certificate when they apply abroad, because in my country the government doesn't issue marriage certificate for couple which have different religions. I switch between christian class and muslim class in different period. Initially I took the islamic class, but I found learning Arabic was difficult and wasn't interesting, so the other years I registered for the christian class, but I found it was a little bit boring (but I enjoy the religious singing class), so I eventually switch back to islamic class.

 

[kira]

So what does a person who's atheist do? Just lie and pick a religion? Or what if you are a religion that isn't on the list? Surely Indonesian's can see how it would be unfair to legally restrict people's choice of belief ? What if you're a Shinto Japanese and marry an Indonesian and would like your kids to remain Shinto?

So I'll try to answer that question again. Hmm.. how do I explain it, neither my English nor my history is sufficient to explain the development of religion in Indonesia. You have to understand the history first..

In 1945, we gained independency from the Dutch (after 3.5 century) and the Japanese (after 3 years) of occupation. This fight against the occupation gained momentum during the World War 2, where the Am,erican & its allies bombed the Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Shortly after that, a group of Indonesian leaders established the national constitution. The basic constitution is kinda short and everyone gotta memorized them for history exams. Article 29 of the 1945 constitution stated that (1) "every penduduk (should be translated as CITIZENS) should be free to choose and to practice any religion that they believe" and (2) "the goevernment guarantee every citizens the freedom to worship anything according to any beliefs".

Three years later, some Islamic leaders wanted to change the country into an Islamic society, with Islam being national law. They believe that muslims life should be ruled by Quran. However, it gathered negative reaction from the minority, and then the Islamic party leaded (led?) by the Islamic leaders was banned a year later.

In 1965, there was a kudeta (I don't know how the English spelling of that, also I think it was a French word), where a communist party (it's called PKI = Partai Komunis Indonesia) rebelling the government by kidnapping and killing 6 army generals, taking control of the mass media and communication, and caught the President of the Republic as weel. They thrown the bodies of the six general into a crocodile well (dude, there wasn't really crocodile there, but it was an empty well which name is "lobang buaya" (crocodile well)), besides killing also the whole families of the army generals. The event was known as Gestapo 30 S PKI (means 30th September (1965) PKI rebellion, more or less).

PKI was a communist AND the only ATHEIST political party, and was in close relation with the Soviet communism leaders. The PKI wanted to change the country into an atheist communist society. Therefroe, shortly after the army took back the control from the PKI (involving the chaos of mass killing of nearly half million PKI members), the government officially ban PKI and atheism. The goevernment also only allow the 6 religions (Islam, protestan, catholic, buddhism, hinduism, and konghucu) as the only religions that can be practiced in the country. There is a constituion related with that, issued in 1965 (article 39 of the 1965 consitutiion).

Most of the older generations are still traumatized with the PKI Gestapo. Also, each year, every 30 September night, whole national televisions will air the same program about the gestapo video. So, hope that explains it.

p.s..: oh, btw, if you happened to visit my country, it's better you avoid the topic of PKI or atheism with strangers. It's like discussing Nazism in Germany. Kinda taboo.

 

[Adstar]

Pentecostals would be recognized as belonging to the protestant religion.

In english we call the kudeta simply a Coup. it comes from the french "coup d'etat" It is defined as a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force.

Your description of events in 1965 conforms with this word.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[kira]

Pentecostals would be recognized as belonging to the protestant religion.

In english we call the kudeta simply a Coup. it comes from the french "coup d'etat" It is defined as a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force.

Your description of events in 1965 conforms with this word.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ah, yes, thanks. That's the word that I was looking for. This is something that I only remember during exams

 

[stateofmind]

They Christian proselytism nailed down (pardon the pun .

Getting nailed to a cross is HIL-AR-IOUS! :bravo:

 

[Michael]

Ah, yes, thanks. That's the word that I was looking for. This is something that I only remember during exams

Do you think these categories of belief are a good thing? Also, what do atheists do when they have to choose one?

What do you think about Muslim's who convert to Pentecostal Christianity? I know that the Qur'an leave the choice of faith up to the person, but, Islamic societies often revert to strong arm tactics to make sure people don't leave Islam. Which makes it appear a bit cult-like for those of us on the outside. I mean, if a person chooses to belief in Gods or God or Buddha or nothing - that's their business,.,.,.,., isn't it?

 

[kira]

Do you think these categories of belief are a good thing?

I think this isn't an ideal situation, but allowing 6 major religions to be protected by law is already good enough. If all faiths (including disbelieve in God) is accepted to grow, I think it will create an instability, especially that our society is very very plural. Change is needed, but it should come gradually.

Also, personally I don't think that people care so much, it's the international human right activists such as "Human Rights Watch" that care "too much". They don't understand that as a country with a medium Human Development level (rank #111 in the world), our focus is not freedom in religion. First, there is this 40 million something people living below poverty line. They have no enough things to eat, no proper health care, no education, let alone thinking about whether there is God or not. People should be left alone, building stability, security, welfare, etc. The rest I think will come naturally.

Also, what do atheists do when they have to choose one?

See above. Also, the recognition of official religions is basically only a formality. If I am a Christian by faith, a Muslim by citizen ID, who is going to get wronged? :shrug: But that's just an example. Same for atheists. Unless people want to influence other people into following what they believe.. and what for??

What do you think about Muslim's who convert to Pentecostal Christianity?

I personally don't care, as long as they don't disturb me/my family, whatever makes them happy

I know that the Qur'an leave the choice of faith up to the person, but, Islamic societies often revert to strong arm tactics to make sure people don't leave Islam. Which makes it appear a bit cult-like for those of us on the outside. I mean, if a person chooses to belief in Gods or God or Buddha or nothing - that's their business,.,.,.,., isn't it?

In my country, several public figures have been known to switch their religions, be it Muslim to Christian or vice versa, Muslim to Buddha or vice versa, Confucianis to Christian or vice versa, etc. Usually the switch happened because of marriage (following the belief of the significant other, my parent being one). It's all ok. Afterall I think that the whole religion-based citizen administration is only for statistical purpose.

 

[iceaura]

p.s..: oh, btw, if you happened to visit my country, it's better you avoid the topic of PKI or atheism with strangers. It's like discussing Nazism in Germany. Kinda taboo.

It is not taboo to discuss Nazism or Judaism in Germany. You do not need to fear the secret police. Scholars study and publish their research on the subject, including new findings even recent about what exactly happened back then.

You cannot publicly deny that the Nazis slaughtered hordes of their fellow Germans, created a reign of terror, with the help of almost the entire German community and no sane motive, is all.

Kind of the opposite of the apparent situation in Indonesia, where you apparently are not allowed to acknowledge that the local brand of rightwing authoritarians slaughtered hordes of people, created a reign of terror, with the help of almost the entire Indonesian community and with no sane motive.

If the Pentacostals continue to grow rapidly in number, and convert many thousands of Muslims, will that be OK? Pentacostals are Protestant Christians.

Meanwhile:

They don't understand that as a country with a medium Human Development level (rank #111 in the world), our focus is not freedom in religion. First, there is this 40 million something people living below poverty line. They have no enough things to eat, no proper health care, no education, let alone thinking about whether there is God or not. People should be left alone, building stability, security, welfare, etc. The rest I think will come naturally.

What came naturally before was mass slaughter of "atheists and communists" by mobs of theists and squads of soldiers. If that had happened in the US in 1965, the US would be much less "developed" than it is, and many people would be much poorer and more in need of stability, security, etc.

Are you sure that continuing the policies that have created the current poverty, etc, is a good idea?

 

[Michael]

That is something you may want to conciser Kira, it could be that the current religious dogma is perpetuating Indonesian poverty? Or, it may be that change would lead to a worsening of the situation. If you can keep the country liberalizing one step at a time then that may be a good thing. But, as of late, it seems there's been a few steps backwards with the popularity of making some sects of Islam illegal.

 

[Doreen]

*************
M*W: No, he would need to be born in Africa as an Africian. He would be raised in Indonesia as a Muslim. He would be (let's go ahead and call a spade a spade...) a Communist Left-Wing Extremist elected POTUS of America.

I'll assume your use of 'spade' here was more from ignorance than intended racism.