Pakistan mob burns man to death for 'blasphemy'

Michael

歌舞伎
Valued Senior Member
Pakistan mob burns man to death for 'blasphemy'

SO people infected with the God Virus dragged a mentally ill man out of the jail after bashing the police officers, poured gasoline on him, and burned him alive.

Is this moral?

The people evidently think so. He supposedly burned a Qu'ran (and he probably did) and so they burned him to death. To them, what they did is moral. To most sane people of the world, what they did was immoral.

How do we know which group is correct? What does Ethics have to say about this case?
 
Pakistan mob burns man to death for 'blasphemy'

SO people infected with the God Virus dragged a mentally ill man out of the jail after bashing the police officers, poured gasoline on him, and burned him alive.

Is this moral?

The people evidently think so. He supposedly burned a Qu'ran (and he probably did) and so they burned him to death. To them, what they did is moral. To most sane people of the world, what they did was immoral.

How do we know which group is correct? What does Ethics have to say about this case?

We know their act was immoral for several reasons. First, we know there is no God and therefore the injunction to kill the blasphemer was not divine. Secondly, we know that blaspheming (and non-belief in general) has no adverse effect on society, and so there is no greater good to be found in harming the blasphemer.

I believe this framework for a moral standard (essentially: "Don't hurt people") is found in our biology. Our empathy makes us less prone to hurt others, and is why those lacking empathy (sociopaths, psychopaths) not only very much want to hurt others, but can't understand why such behavior is considered wrong. Intellectually, they can, but not fundamentally.

These people (the mob) think they're in the right because their god commands exactly what they just did. They have the warrant in the text. They believe they serve a greater good when they kill someone for such a thing, but we know they're mistaken.
 
So, would you say that the underlying moral is "do not hurt people"? If so I agree, but I often state it more broadly: It is immoral to initiate force against another person. Once this is accepted, it becomes clear that harming this man for burning the Qur'an is immoral.

I feel it's simply a case that the people who killed the man just don't understand ethics and therefor do not know when their actions are immoral or moral. Instead they rely on culture and/or religious creed - but not ethics. Which is kind of sad given that the study of morality started over 2500 years ago.

Isn't it interesting that today we have all these social problems and yet the media never invites a Philosopher of Ethics on to their shows and asks them what we might think about doing? Why I wonder? When did Philosophy shot itself in the foot? Science and Maths seem to be motoring along quite well, but not Philosophy...?!?! Yet Philosophers WERE the people you'd talk to when you had social strife. Their consul actually used to be sought out! What happened? I sometimes think it's that we don't understand the language of the Philosopher and so we don't really understand what they're going on about. This opens space up for Theists and Politicians etc... who are only too happy to fill it with their demagoguery and pathetic rhetoric.

And here a man paid the ultimate price... pretty sad huh?
 
I believe this framework for a moral standard (essentially: "Don't hurt people") is found in our biology. Our empathy makes us less prone to hurt others . . . .
That is a vast and dangerous oversimplification. Homo sapiens is a pack-social species like gorillas, chimpanzees, wolves/dogs, lions, horses, elephants, dolphins and quite a few other species--mostly predators but a few grazers. This is distinguished from herd-social, a fairly common instinct in grazing mammals and birds. (And no, I've never had a zoologist give me the scientific nomenclature for these two instincts.)

The difference is that the members of the herd consider each other as anonymous strangers whose company provides a few benefits such as protecting all the children collectively, finding new feeding ground, and improving the odds when attacked by a pack of predators.

Members of a pack (a much smaller community), on the other hand, regard every individual as vital to their own survival. They have known, cared for and depended on each other since birth. Pack-mates often exhibit astounding feats of bravery to protect each other, whereas a herd-mate will run off and let his wounded former colleague distract the predators from following him.

The most crucial difference, however, is that packs regard each other as hostile competitors for scarce food resources. They love their own, but they hate everyone else. In a bad year when there isn't quite enough food so they start to infringe on each other's territories, there will be fights to the death.

Our species is no exception. Using modern instrumentation to examine fossil skeletons in more detail, anthropologists have discovered that more than 50% of adult humans who died in the Paleolithic Era were killed by violence. In other words, more people were killed by other people than by all other causes combined.

I have often rambled on about how our massive forebrain allows us to transcend our instincts so we don't behave like cavemen anymore, and I still stand by that. We have managed to expand our own personal definition of our "pack" to include a community so large that it's really a herd: some of our pack-mates are not merely anonymous strangers, but people who live on the other side of the planet and are mere abstractions to us. (For example, posts on an internet board.)

But... sometimes our inner caveman bursts free and engages in some Paleolithic behavior. He loves his family and close friends so he probably won't hurt them, but he still has a gnawing suspicion that everyone else is a hated competitor for scarce resources, or at best somebody not worth caring about so it's okay to knock him down or take his stuff.

To summarize: our instincts do NOT tell us "Don't hurt people." They tell us "Don't hurt our pack-mates." It's up to our elders and our social institutions to help us define our "pack" with as large a scope as possible.

My parents taught me something that was astoundingly unusual in the 1940s, for which I will always be grateful. They taught me by example that people who don't look like me are just as worthy of courtesy and caring as everyone else. I never understood racism, and I always thought people with foreign accents and strange clothing were really interesting and I wanted to get to know them.

So when I look out at this planet I see one single pack. Everyone is my brother. Sure, there are people who do bad stuff so it's okay to hate them, but not their whole family, their whole community, their whole country, or their whole ethnic group. I want all those people to feel the same way about me as I do about them.

Can't we all be pack-mates?
. . . . and is why those lacking empathy (sociopaths, psychopaths) not only very much want to hurt others, but can't understand why such behavior is considered wrong. Intellectually, they can, but not fundamentally.
I'm not clear on whether sociopaths have no empathy for their own family members. If they do, then they may simply be throwbacks to the pre-agricultural Stone Age, when the only people you could trust were the ones you had depended on and cared for since birth.
These people (the mob) think they're in the right because their god commands exactly what they just did. They have the warrant in the text. They believe they serve a greater good when they kill someone for such a thing, but we know they're mistaken.
My primary criticism of the Abrahamic religions is that they reinforce our Stone Age tribal instincts. They teach their followers that they're just a little bit better than everyone else, so it's not necessary to treat them with the same fairness they're expected to give each other. Sure, some of them have gotten over that, and some exhibit it merely by voting against our customs and traditions. But many exhibit it by using any opportunity to kill us as "heathens" and "infidels" whose goal is to seduce the weak and gullible within their own communities into adopting our evil ways.
 
Ethics says something about the nature of this particular marketplace

Michael said:

What does Ethics have to say about this case?

Ethical considerations would generally suggest that this is what happens when a society leaves its educational system to a patchwork marketplace instead of establishing rational standards.

Ethical considerations would also note economic instability; with per capita PPP around $2,800 U.S., Pakistanis are not particularly wealthy, and there is considerable underemployment.

Ethical considerations, furthermore, would acknowledge political instability and the effects of war.

Combined, such outcomes are very nearly predictable.

Ethically speaking, one ought not approve of such barbaric acts. However, in a country where these factors add up to a dismal literacy rate just under fifty percent, and that provided by an educational marketplace that relies on unregulated religious instruction, ethical considerations also recognize that these sorts of horrors are going to occur.
____________________

Notes:

Central Intelligence Agency. "Pakistan". June 26, 2012. CIA.gov. July 5, 2012. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html
 
T

To summarize: our instincts do NOT tell us "Don't hurt people." They tell us "Don't hurt our pack-mates." It's up to our elders and our social institutions to help us define our "pack" with as large a scope as possible.

My parents taught me something that was astoundingly unusual in the 1940s, for which I will always be grateful. They taught me by example that people who don't look like me are just as worthy of courtesy and caring as everyone else. I never understood racism, and I always thought people with foreign accents and strange clothing were really interesting and I wanted to get to know them.

So when I look out at this planet I see one single pack. Everyone is my brother. Sure, there are people who do bad stuff so it's okay to hate them, but not their whole family, their whole community, their whole country, or their whole ethnic group. I want all those people to feel the same way about me as I do about them.

Can't we all be pack-mates?I

You are a hypocrite, I told you before you are a dictator , and if a little power is given to you use it. You demonstrate you trough you, when for no reason run to ban me.
So please stop preaching what you don't believe.
I would not be surprised if you will run again to the Australia mafia group to ban me.
 
[URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

Is this moral?

The people evidently think so. He supposedly burned a Qu'ran (and he probably did) and so they burned him to death. To them, what they did is moral. To most sane people of the world, what they did was immoral.

How do we know which group is correct? What does Ethics have to say about this case?

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Whatever I do in my house is moral , If I have the power whatever I do is correct and moral

Pa
 
Let's see, which is worse, burning a collection of paper with printing on it, or burning a human being to death?

I'm gonna say.... immoral.
 
Let's see, which is worse, burning a collection of paper with printing on it, or burning a human being to death?

I'm gonna say.... immoral.

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I suppose an intellectual instigated the masses . So who is to blame ? The peon or the capitan ?
 
I would say both. Both the Quran and the authors of it are to blame for instigating the masses into irrational religious violence.
 
Peon. I might say "blah blah", but your right of self-expression or response ends at my nose.
 
Yeah well, whites in the south used to kill black men for looking at white women. My Mom remembers things like this happening, so I hate it when we get on our high horse and judge a whole culture because of what some do

lynching.jpg
 
That would not explain how the same sorts of things occur in Saudi Arabia.
This is an excellent example of the Socratic method (as I understand it). One example is given as a counter example and if that example is accepted the premise must be disregarded.

Ethical considerations would generally suggest that this is what happens when a society leaves its educational system to a patchwork marketplace instead of establishing rational standards.

Ethical considerations would also note economic instability; with per capita PPP around $2,800 U.S., Pakistanis are not particularly wealthy, and there is considerable underemployment.

Ethical considerations, furthermore, would acknowledge political instability and the effects of war.

Combined, such outcomes are very nearly predictable.

Ethically speaking, one ought not approve of such barbaric acts. However, in a country where these factors add up to a dismal literacy rate just under fifty percent, and that provided by an educational marketplace that relies on unregulated religious instruction, ethical considerations also recognize that these sorts of horrors are going to occur.
But Ethics is a formal study and therefor it's not subject to the mere whims of human culture, time or location. It can not be subject to religious decree or market force.

It just is.

I sort of put this in the Ethics subforum under the assumption there was some sort of formalized debate in this forum? I mean, Ethics is centered around rational thought, it's like Science. spidergoat, as I mentioned, used the Socratic method to provide a counter example. Through that method we're supposed to either accept or reject the premise. As it stands, your counter argument must be rejected or you must show where spidergoat's logic is faulty.

My Ethical 'argument' from an moral stance would be that the rule: Do not initiate force against another person was violated. I mean, I'm pretty sure this debate was had around 2500 years ago? But, I would like to see what the Ethic's moderator thinks. AND when we are able to agree that YES killing the man was immoral -or- NO killing the man was moral.

I have often rambled on about how our massive forebrain allows us to transcend our instincts so we don't behave like cavemen anymore, and I still stand by that. We have managed to expand our own personal definition of our "pack" to include a community so large that it's really a herd: some of our pack-mates are not merely anonymous strangers, but people who live on the other side of the planet and are mere abstractions to us. (For example, posts on an internet board.)

But... sometimes our inner caveman bursts free and engages in some Paleolithic behavior. He loves his family and close friends so he probably won't hurt them, but he still has a gnawing suspicion that everyone else is a hated competitor for scarce resources, or at best somebody not worth caring about so it's okay to knock him down or take his stuff.

To summarize: our instincts do NOT tell us "Don't hurt people." They tell us "Don't hurt our pack-mates." It's up to our elders and our social institutions to help us define our "pack" with as large a scope as possible.
All the more interesting that our forebrain gave us the means to rationally determine when we are or are not acting ethically! That's pretty amazing. If our actions are measured against an ethical rational way of approaching the problem, then we can keep the "cave-man" locked away... for good.

Of course, this is probably only possible through the raising of new humans with better wired forebrains. That's the truly amazing thing about humans. If we consider the first 3 months of birth is the fourth trimester and imagine the astounding plasticity with which our brains are able to be shaped, then it might be able to create a 'human' that is really only capable of peaceful actions with one another.

I've read the Mennonites (as an example) virtually have no crime or violence. It simply doesn't happen. There are no sociopaths in their society (great example peaceful parenting).

AAMOF I read most "sociopaths" have unbelievably horrid childhoods. I mean HORRID. Imagine looking at your father and he randomly claimed you "gave him a look" and put his cigaret out on your back. IMO sociopaths are created. Or that's what I've read. Almost all of the serial killers had absolutely horrific documented childhoods. Add to that plasticity changes appear to happen pre-natal! The human is already developing an aggressive brain to deal with whatever world it's born into - so a battered wife might inadvertently be altering pathways in the fetuses brain that result in an aggressive (psychotic prone) child.

Imagine a society of people born like this? It's a never ending feed-back loop. Which I think explain a few "societies" like Pakistan.

Whatever I do in my house is moral , If I have the power whatever I do is correct and moral

Pa
Ethic's is not bound by your house, it's universal and transcends time, culture, place and person.

So, if you close the door and beat your child, that's still immoral. You can make it legal, but never moral.

Religions create the separation they claim to transcend.
What about some Buddhists? Or the Mennonites?

I even wonder if sleeping next to a baby (during the first three months of development) doesn't change the brain in ways that are different than baby's who are put into cribs in different rooms and left to sleep alone.

Anyway, you can see I'm trying to get at the fundamental ethical law that was violated (or not) in this example.
 
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But Ethics is a formal study and therefor it's not subject to the mere whims of human culture, time or location. It can not be subject to religious decree or market force.

It just is.

I sort of put this in the Ethics subforum under the assumption there was some sort of formalized debate in this forum? I mean, Ethics is centered around rational thought, it's like Science. spidergoat, as I mentioned, used the Socratic method to provide a counter example. Through that method we're supposed to either accept or reject the premise. As it stands, your counter argument must be rejected or you must show where spidergoat's logic is faulty.

My Ethical 'argument' from an moral stance would be that the rule: Do not initiate force against another person was violated. I mean, I'm pretty sure this debate was had around 2500 years ago? But, I would like to see what the Ethic's moderator thinks. AND when we are able to agree that YES killing the man was immoral -or- NO killing the man was moral.

Well, if you are to be taken seriously, let the market forces determine the morality of their actions. Those in the lynch mob who own businesses can just have the rest of the town not shop in their store, or the more "liberal minded" individuals can simply not invest anything into the region where this occurred, to ensure that those who live in the area know that their actions were not acceptable. Isn't that what you advocate?:shrug:
 
Bells is right, Islam is the largest religion so market forces have decided its the winner. You should be advocating this victory as a victory for the free market Michael
 
Well, if you are to be taken seriously, let the market forces determine the morality of their actions. Those in the lynch mob who own businesses can just have the rest of the town not shop in their store,
The first part I'd say absolutely yes. If possible and you have a choice you'd immediately choose to do business with the moral people in your society. This would not onl6
y peacefully empower and strengthen them - it'd financially weaken the immoral people.

or the more "liberal minded" individuals can simply not invest anything into the region where this occurred, to ensure that those who live in the area know that their actions were not acceptable. Isn't that what you advocate?:shrug:
No region is devoid of all morality. No one is perfect and good or imperfect and evil.

What I'd do is lead by example, invest with the people who are like minded; financially, emotionally, verbally and morally support those people who were truly interested in a moral way of life. Building schools for girls would be one example.

Also, you can defend yourself. It's perfectly moral to defend yourself. However, living in a largely immoral theocratic society, the first thing to do is teach your children to live a moral life. As a matter of fact, I'd advice us to do this same thing. Ever notice how the people in 1984 never notice THEIR society, the one they live in, that's immoral? Everyone accepts distopia as utopia. Or, at least good enough. Interesting isn't it? IOWs, while I used this example, don't think I'm pointing too many fingers in their direction.
 
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Bells is right, Islam is the largest religion so market forces have decided its the winner. You should be advocating this victory as a victory for the free market Michael
Again, I wouldn't be pointing too many fingers.

Don't worry, IF India liberalizes and if they can become prosperous, people in Pakistan will start to take notice. ALSO, I said a moral society. Market forces in an immoral society does not change things to morality.

This is exactly the same as passing a Law. Just because everyone thinks killing the infidel is right (free-market-forces/democracy) doesn't make it moral. It just means that this is an immoral society.

I think we agree Ethics transcends society? What does the moderator say?


You guys do understand the free-market IS democracy? You do right? It's the purest form of democracy. However, we'd wish to live without rulers not without rules. That 'r' makes all the difference.
 
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