Pain and sufering

ggazoo

Registered Senior Member
Pain and suffering

It seems to me that many atheists will use the "pain and suffering" stance (among others) to explain why they think that God does not exist. Just because you can't see or imagine a good reason for why God might allow something to happen doesn't mean there can't be one. If you're saying that you can't think of a reason for all of the suffering in the world, then there can't be any, right? The problem with that, is that it's blind faith of a high order.

Take the story of Joseph in Genesis. He was an arrogant young man who was imprisoned by his brothers. He spent years in bondage and misery, but was strengthened by his trials. Eventually, he rose up to become prime minister of Egypt who saved thousands of lives and even his own family from starvation. If God had not allowed Joseph's years of suffering, he never would have been such a powerful agent for social justice and spiritual healing.

With time and perspective most of us can see good reasons for at least some of the tragedy and pain that occurs in life. Why couldn't it be possible that, from God's vantage point, there are good reasons for all of it?

If anything, pain and suffering may be evidence for God. People, we believe, ought to not t suffer, be excluded, die of hunger or oppression. But the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends on death, destruction, and violence of the strong against the weak - these things are all perfectly natural. On what basis, then, does an atheist judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair, and unjust? The nonbeliever in God doesn't have a good basis for being outraged at injustice, which is their reason for objecting to God in the first place. If you are sure that this natural world is unjust and filled with evil, then you are assuming the reality of some extra-natural (or super-natural) standard by which to make your judgment.

Basically, it's a mistake, although an understandable one, to think that if you abandon your belief in God it somehow makes the problem of evil easier to handle.
 
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Whilst pain and suffering doesn't prove god doesn't exist (obviously), if someone creates a universe where predator and prey are set in stone from the very beginning of evolution reminds me of computer game designers who place characters in a game who are destined to be shot.

Although there is something more gruesome about sentient creatures being eaten alive. I can imagine being eaten alive by a lion and thinking "God had a good reason for this, so that makes it better". I can imagine standing before god just moments after being eaten alive, I certainly wouldn't shake his hand after what I had just endured.

OR, I would just be dead and that would simply be nature at it's most typical blindness to the sentient creatures it created.

The problem you say of atheists using pain and suffering to strengthen their disbelief is not as big a problem of theists who pray 24/7 to this god to alleviate them of their suffering. You pretty much agreed that evolution is godless in nature, yet the faithful demand to be made an exception.

P.S. Stop saying 'blind faith of the highest order' when referring to atheists. Blind faith of the highest order is to affirm the existence of god and heaven. At best atheists rate second.
 
Basically, it's a mistake, although an understandable one, to think that if you abandon your belief in God it somehow makes the problem of evil easier to handle.
You should try it some time. It's so much easier to accept that this is how nature is, without all the questioning about why God would let something bad happen, what his plan is, how this bad moment in your life falls into that plan and so on.

Also, I don't think nature is unjust or evil. I think nature is what nature is. It was what it is long before we decided to invent morality for ourselves.
 
You should try it some time. It's so much easier to accept that this is how nature is, without all the questioning about why God would let something bad happen, what his plan is, how this bad moment in your life falls into that plan and so on.

Also, I don't think nature is unjust or evil. I think nature is what nature is. It was what it is long before we decided to invent morality for ourselves.

This is the main reason for the chaos that is in place in the west.

Animals springs to mind.
 
It was what it is long before we decided to invent morality for ourselves.

The popular concept - that we should each determine our own morality - is based on the belief that the spiritual realm is nothing at all like the rest of the world. Does anyone really believe that? Many people will say that "Every person has to define right and wrong for him or herself." Then let me ask this: "Is there anyone in the world right now doing things you believe they should stop doing no matter what they personally believe about the correctness of their behaviour?"

The obvious response is "yes".

So, doesn't that mean that you do believe there is some kind of moral reality that is 'there' that is not defined by us, that must be abided by regardless of what a person feels or thinks?
 
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It seems to me that many atheists will use the "pain and suffering" stance (among others) to explain why they think that God does not exist. Just because you can't see or imagine a good reason for why God might allow something to happen doesn't mean there can't be one.

Hum,
if the reason is beyond our imagination where does that leave our humanity and compassion?
Are they worthless illusions?

Clearly if we were to assume there was a god, the existence of pain and suffering means that that god is not a just and compassionate god.

However you look at it, there is no good in evil.
 
It seems to me that many atheists will use the "pain and suffering" stance (among others) to explain why they think that God does not exist.
The problem of evil is a bit deeper than you treat in your OP. While it does not constitute an argument against the existence of any god it does bring into question that an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent god exists. There are refutations, certainly, but by my view at best you wind up with a god who is largely impersonal and for whom the end justifies the means.

It also fails completely when considering the prospect of an eternal hell (since eternal evil might be balanced but never outweighed by eternal good).

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/#IndVerArgEvi

~Raithere
 
ggazoo said:
"Is there anyone in the world right now doing things you believe they should stop doing no matter what they personally believe about the correctness of their behaviour?"

The obvious response is "yes".

So, doesn't that mean that you do believe there is some kind of moral reality that is 'there' that is not defined by us, that must be abided by regardless of what a person feels or thinks?
No, that's just the definition of morality. I may think there are things people do that they should stop doing, even if they believe it's right. But that doesn't mean my moral position is any better than theirs, and it doesn't mean they're wrong.

But we live in a system called society, which, as a whole, decides on a set of morals that must be enforced. Without this society would dissolve into its natural state, anarchy and survival of the fittest. Religion is not some divine source of moral truth, it's just one of the systems we've invented, as a society, to keep people from going apeshit on each other.
 
It seems to me that many atheists will use the "pain and suffering" stance (among others) to explain why they think that God does not exist.
no,
it only proves that LOVING, omnipotent god doesnt exist
to think that suffering makes people stronger may be true
,BUT what about those who get killed and die suffering ,,,HOW does that helps them??
Basically, it's a mistake, although an understandable one, to think that if you abandon your belief in God it somehow makes the problem of evil easier to handle.
I have no problem with evil,IF god created all then he created Evil also, the bible even says so.

”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?”
(Lam. 3:38).

”...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings” (Jer. 26:3).

”...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin” (Jer. 36:3).

”I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts....” (Ezek. 20:25-26).

”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42).

”...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6).

See also: Jer. 11:11, 14:16, 18:11, 19:3, 19:15, 23:12, 26:13, 26:19, 35:17, 36:31, 40:2, 42:10, 42:17, 44:2, 45:5, 49:37, 51:64, Ezek. 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chron. 34:24, and 2 Chron. 34:28

http://www.rationalresponders.com/debunking_an_urban_legend_evil_is_a_lack_of_something

I simply dont believe in god as theres no EVIDENCE for it.
and in case of xian god, he is just too contradictory and Illogical to be real

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godlogic.html
 
Take the story of Joseph in Genesis. He was an arrogant young man who was imprisoned by his brothers. He spent years in bondage and misery, but was strengthened by his trials. Eventually, he rose up to become prime minister of Egypt who saved thousands of lives and even his own family from starvation. If God had not allowed Joseph's years of suffering, he never would have been such a powerful agent for social justice and spiritual healing.
Or take the story of a child who is raped for their entire life by their sick twisted father who has kept them in a dudgeon never to learn to speak, love, see the sun, and just eat rotten food and sit in their own feces until finally one day comes and the father has tired with her and decided to really become cruel with a red hot razor, for a few more hours of her existence before letting her die a slow agonizing death by starvation in her cell.

Now, imaging if EVERY child was living like this. EVERY single child forever. Tell me, if God would allow such pain to exist would he be a cruel monster? If not then you seem to be saying it's OK because oh a couple children that happens to? If so then God is pure wicked evil.

So there is no God, you will die and end forgotten and having done next to nothing of real meaning, get over it,

Michael
 
The popular concept - that we should each determine our own morality - is based on the belief that the spiritual realm is nothing at all like the rest of the world. Does anyone really believe that? Many people will say that "Every person has to define right and wrong for him or herself." Then let me ask this: "Is there anyone in the world right now doing things you believe they should stop doing no matter what they personally believe about the correctness of their behaviour?"

The obvious response is "yes".

So, doesn't that mean that you do believe there is some kind of moral reality that is 'there' that is not defined by us, that must be abided by regardless of what a person feels or thinks?

Morals are shaped by societal pressures.

Societies dominated by fundamental religious folk show just how bad religion is for morals in society.
 
ggazoo, the question is;

"Is god willing, but not able to avert suffering, or not willing, but able to avert suffering?"

Please write a concise argument for both propositions, and I'll get back and discuss those with you.
 
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