Organis shape: Consenus regarding morphic resonance re Sheldrake?

[geistkiesel]

Rupert Sheldrake, PhD botonist has published much on the topic of morphic resonance anmd the habits of nature. Instead of me outlinng the theory let me give some brief example that Sheldrake uses.

The Blue Tit - Cream Robbers par excellance:Circa 1920 in England a small bird, the "blue tit" was observed to open the tops of delivered milk with its beak. The blue tit punctured the aluminum foil lid and sucked the cream from the bottle. This was obseved only rarely at first. The blue tit's longevity is 2-3 years and is not seen migrating more than 3-4 miles from home territory. By the end of the 1930's all of England had been innundated with the milk thefts. In the late 1930s the blue tit of mainland Europe (the low countries) were seen to mimiic their English cousins ( Belgium Holland etc.)

When WWII came , 1939, the low contries' milk supply system was completely disrupted and no milk was delivered to the customer door and hence the blue tit had no milk supply available as before the war. In late 1945 the mainland milk system was reintituted and lo and behold the blu tit's criminal instincts wee revived and came to life with vigor even though 2-3 generations of blue tits had no experience in robbing milk.

Clearly, the teaching system of blue its does not follow human traditions. The mama and papa blue tit apparently did not instruct the little ones in the art and technique of cream robbing. Cross channel flying of the blue tit has not been observed, nor has any teaching events reach ed the observed state.
How fo they do it?


Protein Folding:
Similarly, when a protein is manufactured there are, in general, many final physical forms of the protein with a minimum energy level that are essentially equivalent. As the protein folds from a long chain after assembled in the DNA/RNA factories of the organic cells, protein P always enfolds into the same configuration despite many alternate routes to a minimum energy state. Some protein that are thousands of amino acid units long always behave the same and always enfold he same (conditions being proper of cvourse).

The developed fetus
Finally, what is the explanation of why a fetus grows into the recognizable shape it does and does not end up as a slosh of protein in the placenta sack? How does a DNA in the developing (or develp[ed) nose know when and how and exactly where to provide the proper protein for nose construction, while the DNA in the toes, which is identical as far as I have read, to the nose DNA, always produces proper toe protein? Time, fucntion protein selection, "blue print" exactness seem to tbe the result. How does this occur?

Anyone have the answer to family resemblance?
I appear physically similar to my mother: blond/blue and geometrically similar. My sister favored our father, dark and swarthy. I am somewhat familiar with dominance of genes etc and on a very high level this is the, or an offered explanation, details omitted of course.

I have seen some responses in the literature that "DNA" explains it all. This is good enough for me, but show me how the DNA does it. Surely there is no "facial similarlity function in DNA" that can be isolated. Is it all reductionist chemistry? I have a serious problem with this, scientifically speaking.

Geistkiesel

 

[CharonZ]

Well I have to say that the proposed theory is most likely at least bordering to pseudoscience, simply because experimental evidence is absolutely lacking to support this theory.

"The Blue Tit - Cream Robbers par excellance" this is generally referred to as a typcial example of culturally transmitted learning. Regarding the speed I'd have to get the actual figures, but so far I haven't track down the original papers.

"Protein Folding" That's simple. Tertiary structures are determined e.g. by hydrogen bonds, hydrophobic interactions etc.. Furthermore certain proteins, called chaperons also assist in the correct folding.

"The developed fetus" That's more complicated. The precise mechanism with leads to differiantiation of the cells is not completely understood, however basically (after fertilization) there are cytoplasmic determinants (including RNA and proteins) localized in certain regions of the cell and later to specific regions of the embryo, that direct gene expression (that is, differential activation or expression of certain genes).
This differential expression basically drives the development of the cell in specific directions. Furthermore, cell-cell interactions further guide the embryonal development.

"Anyone have the answer to family resemblance? "
That's rather simple again. First, the genetic factors. Every human has got a set of 46 chromosomes in total, coming from a duplicated set of 23 (hence, humans got a so called diploid genome).
You got 23 from the father (sperm) and 23 from the mother (ovary). In other words you got half of their genetic make-up and this may lead to resemblance. However, as it is a random process which of each pairs is given from either your father or mother respecitively (as there are 2 pairs of each chromosom) there is stil a rather high probability of genetic variation among siblings.
Finally, the appearence is not only determined by genetics, but also due to environmental factors, e.g. food or sunlight.

 

[geistkiesel]

Well I have to say that the proposed theory is most likely at least bordering to pseudoscience, simply because experimental evidence is absolutely lacking to support this theory.

I guess tht adepends on nes perspective. Rupert Shekdrake has an intelligently written book, a few of them, actially. The book is full of well documented published materials that cover s vast range of organic/biological topics without shorting any topic discussed.. RS doesn't leave much to personal opinion,

"Morphis Resonance the Habits of Nature" R Sheldrake

"The Blue Tit - Cream Robbers par excellance" this is generally referred to as a typcial example of culturally transmitted learning. Regarding the speed I'd have to get the actual figures, but so far I haven't track down the original papers.

Remember the parameters, 2-3 yeaqr longevity, 2-3 miles radius of motion and relatively hurried spread of observed theft events.How does culturally transmitted learning work? Remember it started with just a few isolated examples. This is not a physical attribute of birds that has had huge evolutionary opportuinities learning how to break open aluminum milk lids.Also. reme,ber the break in the low countries condiotions. RS describes the matter wih sufficient eferences that will challenge your cultural transmission theory. It wont elminiate cultural learning , jbut will offer amendmen ts,

"Protein Folding" That's simple. Tertiary structures are determined e.g. by hydrogen bonds, hydrophobic interactions etc. Furthermore certain proteins, called chaperons also assist in the correct folding.[

I realize all you are saying which is covered by RS, but remember my post where many equally minimum energy states exist which the protein could "relax" into even with the chapoerons, yet only one final form resuilts where even in the many thousand amino acid models the familiar habitual form results. I am familiar wiwwth some basic elements of protein construction where some basic fofrms seem the same from protein to protein as if the were sharing the same size of nut and bolt or screw pitch. Who supplies the blue print?

"The developed fetus" That's more complicated. The precise mechanism with leads to differiantiation of the cells is not completely understood, however basically (after fertilization) there are cytoplasmic determinants (including RNA and proteins) localized in certain regions of the cell and later to specific regions of the embryo, that direct gene expression (that is, differential activation or expression of certain genes).
This differential expression basically drives the development of the cell in specific directions. Furthermore, cell-cell interactions further guide the embryonal development.

How does the system you describe result in my sculpted facial features being unmistakably parfallel ing my mother's physical profile. Were there not millions and billions of fhe DNA formed proteins and carefully placed such hat me and mom were similar to insist on some link. How does the toe DNA know it must produce a protein for the nose when necessary? Certainly this information is not coded in DNA as blueprints in such a manner as to be unmistakably a blue print function, is it? You use "specific directions" and it is to these dynamics that I address the thread. The fact of morphic construction is not in question, it is the imposition of the blueprint that I am enquiring into. All the trillions and trillions of geometric relationships of organic tissue alone boggles the mind. I am not suggesting any kind of "watch maker" here, but let me give abn analogy that has some substance,

If a transitor goes out on Easter morning in the tunning circuit of your telly, you get channel 12 and watch Spanish bullfights instead of the Pope delivering Easter Mass. The television circuit is merely an rf receiver and signal processor, but the show does not originate wihn the physical limits of the telly. Similarly, when Geistkiesl and ChaonZ think of each other, or focus on the posts, threads, the totality of the communhication, we can assume a bonding on some unobserved level of consciousness that may be a tad different than one's wildest reductionist and by defionition unobservable dreams.

"Does anyne have the answer to family resemblance? "


That's rather simple again. First, the genetic factors. Every human has got a set of 46 chromosomes in total, coming from a duplicated set of 23 (hence, humans got a so called diploid genome).
You got 23 from the father (sperm) and 23 from the mother (ovary). In other words you got half of their genetic make-up and this may lead to resemblance. However, as it is a random process which of each pairs is given from either your father or mother respecitively (as there are 2 pairs of each chromosom) there is stil a rather high probability of genetic variation among siblings.

Yes I understan, I am enquiring into th estructure the form of gthe organix body that resembles not only a man, but a man with external characteristics of a family member. Aren't there a farly limited number of basic body types,: Small thin and wiry, wide , broad shoulderswed, tall and lean etc as if we could all trace our histories back to say ten family grouos in the. What are the dynamics of the scuplting process? RS describesw the process in terms of morphic resonanced which , he emphacizes and I happen to agree with, is not a consciously detailed and guided process at any time.

the appearence is not only determined by genetics, but also due to environmental factors, e.g. food or sunlight.

I understand, but why are my lips not only "full", but shaped similar to my mother;s as are other parts of the facial features alone. The fact of the similarity is not a statistically driven one. Too many other people also unmistakably identify physically with memebers of their families. What is the dynamics of the process? What are the forces that sculpt our images, just right, not too much of this or that or not not enough of this or that?

I anticipated references to DNA activity which is crucially intrinsic to the processes, without any question.

I have a personal developing "theory" that biases ny thinking here. Thiose selfish genes that some describe as going for a free anad unecessary ride. Some have claimed that approcimately 1% (or le4ss) of he DNA can provide all the DNA action reqquqired for body development and maintenance and the 99% of unused DNA is just extfra baggage and maybe even a form of ball and chain anchor.

This is all speculation and food for popular biology based books like "The Blind Watchmaker" a book that enjoys less than 10% the documentation as RS's "Morphic Resonance".

I say that if all the DNA in our physical bodies were funcitonally participating in regular and common DNA activity we are familiar with we would live forever effectively. There would be no disease to speak of, no pathologies in mind or body. When we can trigger some cooperation switch in the DNA message network that brings all the DNA elements of the body into cooperative profiles union . . . ah what a concept, huh? Reductionist ideas do have somethings valuable to offere for the better learning good, but I don;t know what they are.

Thank you so very much for your time and attention. I suspect we may be scientifically looking at our univesal elephant from extreme variances in our personal scientific structures in expaining to each other the strangeness of what we observe. What say you CharonZ?


CharonZ, I really do not wish to overstay my welcome here so without further ado,

I'm late , I'm late, for a very important date. I have no time to say hello, goodbye, I'm late, l'm late I'm late.



Geistkiesel