one for james: abortion and eggs

Asguard

Kiss my dark side
Valued Senior Member
james made a comment in his vegi rant thread about it being ok to eat eggs because they are unfertilised (on my way out so i will link it latter).

SO if a chicken starts at fertilisation (even though it cant live unless put in a incubator or under a chicken), why do you not belive the same about humans?
 
I don't have a vegi rant thread.

I said that vegetarians, but not vegans, eat eggs that are unfertilised. Eating eggs does not involve killing an animal. Neither does drinking milk. Neither does eating cheese (although most cheeses contain rennet, so those should be avoided. Look it up.)

In answer to the question, I do believe that an individual human being starts at fertilisation - same as a chicken.
 
So its ok to kill a child human but you think its morally wrong to kill an animal for food?
 
Here are some of the problems...

1) Everyone reading this began life as a human embryo. Observable? Yes. This life can be aborted on demand.

2) Animal behavior is being used to justify some human behavior. Do animals have human cognition? No.
 
I don't class abortions as killing a child Asguard. Why do you?

i dont, i also dont count fertilised chicken eggs as "living" and dont argue its immoral to eat them because your killing an embryo that is actally LESS than a paracite. A fertilised chicken egg is litterally inhert unless its put into the proper heat enviroment (either under a clucky hen or in an incubator). Its not that they die if they arnt in this enviroment, they dont start developing at all unless put in this enviroment. I know this very well, mum and dad have chickens and they used to collect the eggs and eat them and if a hen got clucky they would just put a dozen (straight out of the fridge) under her.

Here are some of the problems...

1) Everyone reading this began life as a human embryo. Observable? Yes. This life can be aborted on demand.

2) Animal behavior is being used to justify some human behavior. Do animals have human cognition? No.

MOM i dont know where your going with that but this thread is about aborting human fetuses vs eatting fertilised chicken eggs. James claimed the second was immoral because its fertilised and there for it is a chicken and its immoral to kill it. I want to see how he reconciles this surposed immorality of killing a chicken embryo with his position on abortion. He has already stated that a human life is worth more than a chickens life, and he has stated that both become human\chicken at fertilisation. If its "killing" to eat a chicken egg at that point and therefore immoral, then surly he must belive that abortion is MORE immoral because the human life is more important
 
MOM i dont know where your going with that but this thread is about aborting human fetuses vs eatting fertilised chicken eggs. James claimed the second was immoral because its fertilised and there for it is a chicken and its immoral to kill it. I want to see how he reconciles this surposed immorality of killing a chicken embryo with his position on abortion. He has already stated that a human life is worth more than a chickens life, and he has stated that both become human\chicken at fertilisation. If its "killing" to eat a chicken egg at that point and therefore immoral, then surly he must belive that abortion is MORE immoral because the human life is more important
I think the difference is in the eating. I'm pretty sure that James thinks that it's morally wrong to eat a fetus as well. Also, I think he would be in favor of abortions in chickens if it was necessary or if the chicken could ask for it.
Why has this become ridiculous?
 
So its ok to kill a child human but you think its morally wrong to kill an animal for food?

It's not, in general, ok to kill a human child. An embryo or a foetus is not a child. A child is a human being that has been born, or is at least theoretically able to exist independently of its mother.

It would be as wrong to eat a human child as it is wrong to eat a cow.

In the cases of both meat eating and abortion, we have to weigh up two sets of interests that are in conflict. For example, in meat eating we have to weigh up the human enjoyment and nutrition from killing and eating the meat against the interest in the animal in continuing to live its life as a sentient being. Quite obviously, in such a case the human enjoyment of meat must take a back seat.

In abortion, we must weigh up the health of the mother (both mental physical) and the future of the child (e.g. if it has to live with something like Down's syndrome, or live in deprived circumstances or whatever) against the fact that the foetus would otherwise live at least some kind of life. In such a case, the particular circumstances will have a major impact on which way the decision ought to go. You can't lay down a hard-and-fast rule that says you're never allowed to have an abortion, or that you must always abort. (Well, you can, but that's immoral.)

A fertilised chicken egg is litterally inhert unless its put into the proper heat enviroment (either under a clucky hen or in an incubator).

You don't need to eat fertilised eggs. Why on earth would you want to?

MOM i dont know where your going with that but this thread is about aborting human fetuses vs eatting fertilised chicken eggs. James claimed the second was immoral because its fertilised and there for it is a chicken and its immoral to kill it.

It seems to me to be prima facie immoral to kill something just for your own temporary enjoyment. Don't you think?

I want to see how he reconciles this surposed immorality of killing a chicken embryo with his position on abortion. He has already stated that a human life is worth more than a chickens life, and he has stated that both become human\chicken at fertilisation. If its "killing" to eat a chicken egg at that point and therefore immoral, then surly he must belive that abortion is MORE immoral because the human life is more important

You're only looking at half the picture. This is a contest of rights and interests. You always seem to focus only on one set of interests, while completely ignoring the other half of the picture. When you talk about meat eating, you only ever look at human interests, while ignoring animal interests completely. And now, when it comes to abortion, you seem only to be interested in the foetus's interests, to the exclusion of the mother's.
 
In the cases of both meat eating and abortion, we have to weigh up two sets of interests that are in conflict. For example, in meat eating we have to weigh up the human enjoyment and nutrition from killing and eating the meat against the interest in the animal in continuing to live its life as a sentient being. Quite obviously, in such a case the human enjoyment of meat must take a back seat.

Unless, of course, you consider that the interests do not relate so simply as you imply - if humans stop eating meat, then a whole bunch of animals are not going to be living lives.

Perhaps, given the choice, animals would prefer to live in captivity as foodstocks, to the likely alternative - the decimation of their numbers.

But of course we can't really say what the animals' interests are, because they can't express such, or even let us know that they understand the scenario and have formed a preference in the first place. All of which starts to add up to grounds for questioning the moral equivalence of humans and animals - we got into this situation, exactly because non-human animals are inherently incapable of participating in an arguments about rights and interests to begin with. I.e., the fact that animals only end up as moral agents through humans deciding to exercise agency on their behalves, kind of goes against the premise that anything with a spinal chord should be considered an equal moral agent.

It seems to me to be prima facie immoral to kill something just for your own temporary enjoyment. Don't you think?

You meant to say "[...] immoral to kill an animal [...]" there, surely?

Because, surely, you yourself do not limit your killing of plants only to those minimally required to sustain your life. You kill and eat some plants just because you enjoy doing so (and don't accord moral standing to the plants in the first place), I'd bet.

Which, okay, fine - but without that categorical aspect ("kill something" - anything), the "prima facie" part doesn't seem so watertight after all. You'd have to shorten it to "kill something with moral standing," in which case you're begging the question, not trafficking in self-evidence.
 
Last edited:
You don't need to eat fertilised eggs. Why on earth would you want to?

Actually this is really simple, its a waste of resorces (wood, steel ect) to build a second chicken coop to keep 1 rooster. Its also cruel to keep it constantly confined while the hens are alowed to sratch around the whole back yard.

So james, heres your moral question, you have 3 options:

Death to the rooster
Confinement (not as confined as a battery hen but not alowed to roam free either)
Or eat fertilised eggs

Which do you chose?

It seems to me to be prima facie immoral to kill something just for your own temporary enjoyment. Don't you think?

quadraphonics already delt with that, BTW do you use paper in your job? that is killing something "for your tempoarary enjoyment". A tree is MUCH more alive than a chicken egg is.


Now to the crux of the thread, your holding yourself up as a moral authority and juding that people who eat unferilised eggs are moral but eatting a fertilised egg is killing and immoral. Well a human egg is more of a human than a chicken egg is and you held up human life as more valuable than animal life so you should be out campaining against abortion.

Or is it only the use that you find offensive, i noticed that you said in the other thread its ok to kill animals which are pests or in plague proportions but you never answered about eatting them.

I surpose you think its more "moral" to shoot them then leave them to rott, wasted energy
 
Well a human egg is more of a human than a chicken egg is

Disputed...
What do you call the results when a human egg fails to implant in the specialized environment it needs to develop?

A period! :eek:

In fact in my college biology class we were told that an estimated 50% of pregnancies spontaneously abort early on due to nonviability...meiotic errors.
I do suggest if you ask for a fetus sunny-side-up for breakfast you will get pitched out of your local diner...

I thought about buying hens for eggs. Just the hens...I am not putting up with ARKA-ARKA-ARK! at 5 am.

Edited to add...the solution to pests...is to reintroduce predators.
Except that would produce howls of outrage with livestock producers, as witness the battle in the Western US over wolves.
 
Last edited:
chimpkin true but 100% of fertilised chicken eggs wont develop AT ALL unless its put in an incubator or under a cluckey hen.
 
. . . speakng of abortion . . . . how come it's NOT O.K. to abort a fetus . . . but it is O.K. to 'abort' that same life . . . say after 18 years, or so . . . . in some politicians' war?

wlminex
 
. . . speakng of abortion . . . . how come it's NOT O.K. to abort a fetus . . . but it is O.K. to 'abort' that same life . . . say after 18 years, or so . . . . in some politicians' war?

wlminex

But then they are being useful! taa-daa

except for all the ones that come home too messed up to function, they are just a bunch of parasites!
 
. . . there you have it folks! . . . . the definition of a 'human being' is being useful?? This should settle the 'fetus/human being' issue.

wlminex
 
Looks like it's time to once again bring some common sense to this thread by interjecting one of my wife's classic lines:

"I'll give a flying fuck what men think about abortion, the first time one of you assholes gets pregnant."

So let's all of us with a Y chromosome please head for the exits and allow the women, for whom this is more than an interesting intellectual discussion, to make the decision.

And spare me the crap about "But it's my baby too."
  • You don't have to put up with the pain, the inconvenience, the career setback, and the very real possibility that you'll end up raising the kid alone when your asshole husband abandons both of you.
  • Statistically, you're not very likely to stick around in a relationship that starts with a "problem pregnancy" anyway.
So please shut up, go back to your baseball game, and leave this one for the ladies.
 
But of course we can't really say what the animals' interests are, because they can't express such, or even let us know that they understand the scenario and have formed a preference in the first place.

All animals display signs of stress when they are unhappy. Just for an example, birds will lose feathers. Anyone who is around animals knows what their interests are, because they express such.
 
Back
Top