On the topic of a fine-tuned universe.

garbonzo

Registered Senior Member
As for the Earth itself (not the universe), it does appear to be fine-tuned for life. Being set at just the exact distance to not be too cold or too hot is something that I can't just take as a coincidence, considering the fact that mankind has yet to find any place similar to our wonderful planet. Indeed it is the "best one possible". This doesn't go to say that the universe doesn't have any other hospitable places that we just haven't run across yet or that the universe as a whole isn't an amazing creation in itself. I'd like to share a statement from a Professor Paul Davies that I found to be extremely thought-provoking.
Professor Paul Davies writes in The Mind of God: “The existence of an orderly, coherent universe containing stable, organized, complex structures requires laws and conditions of a very special kind.”

After discussing a number of “coincidences” that astrophysicists and others have noted, Professor Davies adds:

“Taken together, they provide impressive evidence that life as we know it depends very sensitively on the form of the laws of physics, and on some seemingly fortuitous accidents in the actual values that nature has chosen for various particle masses, force strengths, and so on. . . . Suffice it to say that, if we could play God, and select values for these quantities at whim by twiddling a set of knobs, we would find that almost all knob settings would render the universe uninhabitable. In some cases it seems as if the different knobs have to be fine-tuned to enormous precision if the universe is to be such that life will flourish. . . . The fact that even slight changes to the way things are might render the universe unobservable is surely a fact of deep significance.”

And then one more quotation from our science-focused magazine "Awake!" (which happens to be my favorite);

Atheists, of course, have their counterarguments. Some shrug off the apparent fine-tuning in nature, saying: ‘Of course the observable universe is capable of supporting human life. If it weren't, we wouldn’t be here to worry about it. So there’s really nothing to explain. We’re just here, and that’s all there is to it.’ But do you find that a satisfying explanation for our existence? Another argument is that it will someday be proved that only one possible set of numbers can work in the equations that express the fundamental laws of nature. That is, the dials mentioned above had to be turned to the right settings for the universe to exist at all. Some say, ‘It’s that way because it had to be that way!’ Even if this circular reasoning were true, it would still not provide an ultimate explanation for our existence. In short, is it just a coincidence that the universe exists and that it is life-supporting?
 
All you present here are tired arguments for a God of the gaps... a desire to understand "How" without willing to admit "I don't know", a desire for a "satisfying explanation" when no explanation may actually be possible to establish, and so all we are left with is wishful thinking to satisfy any deep-seated fears we may have.

Most counter your unsupported argument quite simply with saying that it is not the universe that is fine-tuned for life, but life that is fine-tuned to the universe.

The "fine-tuned" argument is akin to being amazed that, upon dealing a deck of cards, you end up with precisely the order you dealt.
 
The chance the the life on Earth is suited for the overall conditions on Earth is 1 out of 1, regardless of what the overall conditions could possibly be. So we can't learn anything from this.
 
Nature is killing itself as part of nature. Part of a synchronized universe is happiness, anything else is chaos. The lack of God is noticeable. But the presence of God is noticeable as well. This is the duality of happiness and un-happiness. The forbidden fruit, knowledge of good AND evil. Why we can't know good and evil is because it is not as pleasing as knowledge of absolute good. Why God planted in this holy garden is beyond me.
 
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All you present here are tired arguments for a God of the gaps... a desire to understand "How" without willing to admit "I don't know", a desire for a "satisfying explanation" when no explanation may actually be possible to establish, and so all we are left with is wishful thinking to satisfy any deep-seated fears we may have.

Most counter your unsupported argument quite simply with saying that it is not the universe that is fine-tuned for life, but life that is fine-tuned to the universe.

The "fine-tuned" argument is akin to being amazed that, upon dealing a deck of cards, you end up with precisely the order you dealt.


Well said.
 
As for the Earth itself (not the universe), it does appear to be fine-tuned for life.

If the kind of life here on Earth originated on Earth, the planet would have to be such so as to make such an event possible. If it originated somewhere else, the Earth would have to be such so as to make it possible for life to take up residence here.

That needn't mean the kind of conditions that we find on Earth today. When life first appeared on Earth, the planet had very little oxygen in its atmosphere, for example. Early life gave off oxygen as part of its metabolic activities and the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere gradually grew over hundreds of millions of years. That created a huge crisis for early life since oxygen was poisonous, breaking down and oxidizing organic molecules. But evolution is endlessly inventive, and new forms of life appeared that not only could survive in an oxygen-rich environment, but actually metabolized oxygen and needed it to survive.

In other words, while all life is apt to think (if it can think) that conditions are optimized for its precise comfort, different life forms aren't always going to agree on what those conditions are.
 
The best we can tell so far, the vast majority of the universe is not tuned for life, much less fine tuned. Earth is mostly very hostile to human life. I would not be the least bit surprised to find planets very different from Earth with beings who claim to know life would be impossible on a planet like Earth & who thank their fantasy gods for making their planet fit for them. There may have been 333 trillion googolplex Big Bangs & this is the only 1 which produced life or they all produced life or anything between. IF somehow we could look at a universe with no life, the perpetually faithful would claim THAT could not have happened without gods.
 
Yes indeed. We are all so wonderful and pretty and smart that the universe must have been made so that we could be the cherry on top. ;)

What conceit!

Edit: I just looked up Awake! and apparently its a Jehovahs Witnesses publication. To the OP: Is there anyway you could contact the Lakewood Ohio office and tell your people to quit bothering me at the bus stop when im on the way to work in the morning? Sometimes several times a month these rude inconsiderate idiots come carrying their bibles and waving their rags at me. All i want is a peaceful start to my morning. I have tried being nice, i have tried being threatening, nothing works. Just more JW's pouring out of the woodwork.
How can i stop this?
 
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Sorry accidental double posting. Proving once again that my species is the best the universe has to offer :)
Mods, if you want please delete this.
 
As for the Earth itself (not the universe), it does appear to be fine-tuned for life. Being set at just the exact distance to not be too cold or too hot is something that I can't just take as a coincidence, considering the fact that mankind has yet to find any place similar to our wonderful planet. Indeed it is the "best one possible". This doesn't go to say that the universe doesn't have any other hospitable places that we just haven't run across yet or that the universe as a whole isn't an amazing creation in itself. I'd like to share a statement from a Professor Paul Davies that I found to be extremely thought-provoking.
Professor Paul Davies writes in The Mind of God: “The existence of an orderly, coherent universe containing stable, organized, complex structures requires laws and conditions of a very special kind.”

After discussing a number of “coincidences” that astrophysicists and others have noted, Professor Davies adds:

“Taken together, they provide impressive evidence that life as we know it depends very sensitively on the form of the laws of physics, and on some seemingly fortuitous accidents in the actual values that nature has chosen for various particle masses, force strengths, and so on. . . . Suffice it to say that, if we could play God, and select values for these quantities at whim by twiddling a set of knobs, we would find that almost all knob settings would render the universe uninhabitable. In some cases it seems as if the different knobs have to be fine-tuned to enormous precision if the universe is to be such that life will flourish. . . . The fact that even slight changes to the way things are might render the universe unobservable is surely a fact of deep significance.”

And then one more quotation from our science-focused magazine "Awake!" (which happens to be my favorite);

Atheists, of course, have their counterarguments. Some shrug off the apparent fine-tuning in nature, saying: ‘Of course the observable universe is capable of supporting human life. If it weren't, we wouldn’t be here to worry about it. So there’s really nothing to explain. We’re just here, and that’s all there is to it.’ But do you find that a satisfying explanation for our existence? Another argument is that it will someday be proved that only one possible set of numbers can work in the equations that express the fundamental laws of nature. That is, the dials mentioned above had to be turned to the right settings for the universe to exist at all. Some say, ‘It’s that way because it had to be that way!’ Even if this circular reasoning were true, it would still not provide an ultimate explanation for our existence. In short, is it just a coincidence that the universe exists and that it is life-supporting?

Life needs a place on which it can form

Life cannot exist , evolve without the solidility of the Universes macro world
 
Yes indeed. We are all so wonderful and pretty and smart that the universe must have been made so that we could be the cherry on top. ;)

What conceit!

Edit: I just looked up Awake! and apparently its a Jehovahs Witnesses publication. To the OP: Is there anyway you could contact the Lakewood Ohio office and tell your people to quit bothering me at the bus stop when im on the way to work in the morning? Sometimes several times a month these rude inconsiderate idiots come carrying their bibles and waving their rags at me. All i want is a peaceful start to my morning. I have tried being nice, i have tried being threatening, nothing works. Just more JW's pouring out of the woodwork.
How can i stop this?

I would suggest contacting your local authorities to ask about the laws regarding solicitation in public venues in your area.
 
This thread topic always gets me thinking of something that the late great Douglas Adams once wrote:
"This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for." - from The Salmon of Doubt.
 
Yes indeed. We are all so wonderful and pretty and smart that the universe must have been made so that we could be the cherry on top. ;)

What conceit!

Edit: I just looked up Awake! and apparently its a Jehovahs Witnesses publication. To the OP: Is there anyway you could contact the Lakewood Ohio office and tell your people to quit bothering me at the bus stop when im on the way to work in the morning? Sometimes several times a month these rude inconsiderate idiots come carrying their bibles and waving their rags at me. All i want is a peaceful start to my morning. I have tried being nice, i have tried being threatening, nothing works. Just more JW's pouring out of the woodwork.
How can i stop this?

What always amuses me about Jehovah's Witnesses is that they believe only 144,000 will enter heaven. Now, there are already well over 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses. And yet they bother people at bus stops and by ringing their front door bells, to convert yet more. Why?
 
What always amuses me about Jehovah's Witnesses is that they believe only 144,000 will enter heaven. Now, there are already well over 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses. And yet they bother people at bus stops and by ringing their front door bells, to convert yet more. Why?

I gather that there are three tiers, the 144k that get into heaven, the ones who are resurrected and get to live in a paradise on earth when the world ends and the third group that remain dead in the ground.

When you combine the jockeying for position with the fact that they wind their followers up with the notion that the world will end at any minute, it seems to me a powerful incentive for them to live life in an anxious panic, which i guess explains the manic proselytization.

Who knows how much damage this does. I saw a woman for a while, romantically and at first her religion wasnt a problem, but the more i found out about it the more it disturbed me. Just as an example of her thinking, she didnt care how her son did in high school or if he went to college. She was convinced that the world would end soon and she wanted him "to have fun" while he still could.
 
garbonzo:

As for the Earth itself (not the universe), it does appear to be fine-tuned for life. Being set at just the exact distance to not be too cold or too hot is something that I can't just take as a coincidence, considering the fact that mankind has yet to find any place similar to our wonderful planet. Indeed it is the "best one possible".

Actually, all those 'knobs' you refer to have a range of different settings that would make things nice for life on Earth. It's not the case that only one setting could possibly work. The Earth isn't at the "exact" distance to allow life. It's just within a range of distances that allow liquid water. And that's not particularly remarkable. We already know of extra-solar planets that exist in similar "sweet spots" near their local stars.

Probably no need to comment on this being the best of all possible worlds.

This doesn't go to say that the universe doesn't have any other hospitable places that we just haven't run across yet or that the universe as a whole isn't an amazing creation in itself.

We have run across some. Astronomers are constantly discovering new planets around distant stars, and there are a number of candidates quite nearby that might have conditions suitable for life like the life on Earth. These discoveries are quite recent, but they were expected.

Professor Paul Davies writes in The Mind of God: “The existence of an orderly, coherent universe containing stable, organized, complex structures requires laws and conditions of a very special kind.”

If you're interested in a view from an opposing physicist, you might like to read Victor Stenger's book The Fallacy of Fine-tuning. (It's possible that is not the full title - I'd have to check.)

After discussing a number of “coincidences” that astrophysicists and others have noted, Professor Davies adds:

“Taken together, they provide impressive evidence that life as we know it depends very sensitively on the form of the laws of physics, and on some seemingly fortuitous accidents in the actual values that nature has chosen for various particle masses, force strengths, and so on. . . . Suffice it to say that, if we could play God, and select values for these quantities at whim by twiddling a set of knobs, we would find that almost all knob settings would render the universe uninhabitable. In some cases it seems as if the different knobs have to be fine-tuned to enormous precision if the universe is to be such that life will flourish. . . . The fact that even slight changes to the way things are might render the universe unobservable is surely a fact of deep significance.”

Stenger points out that one mistake that authors like Davies make is that they assume that while one knob is twiddled the others are all left alone. In that case, it's no surprise that the one knob needs a precise setting. But what if you're allowed to adjust the settings of two or three or 10 knobs all at once? You'll find that there's actually a large parameter space out there that could support life in the universe.

And then one more quotation from our science-focused magazine "Awake!" (which happens to be my favorite);

The magazine, or the quote? I occasionally get copies of Awake! from Jehovah's witnesses who knock on my door. I find that Awake! is very weak on science and strong on bible quotes.

Atheists, of course, have their counterarguments. Some shrug off the apparent fine-tuning in nature, saying: ‘Of course the observable universe is capable of supporting human life. If it weren't, we wouldn’t be here to worry about it. So there’s really nothing to explain. We’re just here, and that’s all there is to it.’ But do you find that a satisfying explanation for our existence?

Scientists are constantly working to explain why the universe is as it is. Nobody thinks it's a solved problem. The difference between scientists and religious people here is that scientists are comfortable with not knowing everything right now, while religious people believe they already know everything that's important about the world.

Another argument is that it will someday be proved that only one possible set of numbers can work in the equations that express the fundamental laws of nature. That is, the dials mentioned above had to be turned to the right settings for the universe to exist at all. Some say, ‘It’s that way because it had to be that way!' Even if this circular reasoning were true, it would still not provide an ultimate explanation for our existence.

This isn't circular reasoning. If we come up with some physical theory that only allows one setting of the dials, then we'll certainly be able to say "It's that way because it had to be that way." It's not clear what kind of "ultimate" explanation would satisfy the authors of Awake! Suppose science explains why all the laws of physics (including those knob settings) are as they are. Then I think that these authors would still ask "Well, who made the laws?"

But the religious answer is equally unsatisfying. If God set the knobs, then who made God? And if your reply is that God always existed, then why isn't it possible that the universe/multiverse/whatever always existed?

In short, is it just a coincidence that the universe exists and that it is life-supporting?

Nobody knows, except those with religious certainty.
 
All one can say is the conditions are right for us to survive at the moment. For the first 4 billion years on Earth they weren't optimal and they aren't going to be optimal at some point before the remaining 5 billion or so years that our sun is in the main sequence.

I'm always amazed at how people can see "fine tuning" for human life in a largely inhospitable universe that existed 13 billion years before humans existed and an Earth that existed 4 billion years before humans existed.
 
All one can say is the conditions are right for us to survive at the moment. For the first 4 billion years on Earth they weren't optimal and they aren't going to be optimal at some point before the remaining 5 billion or so years that our sun is in the main sequence.

I'm always amazed at how people can see "fine tuning" for human life in a largely inhospitable universe that existed 13 billion years before humans existed and an Earth that existed 4 billion years before humans existed.

Conditions on Earth are not now optimal for humans & probably never will be.
The main reason they see fine tuning is because they desperately need to see it.
 
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