On the circularity of faith

I can't wait to see what this leads to. :)

I can hazard a few guesses though.

1.) Prove to us that He has acted, and you might have a point.

2.) So until He acts (again?), Faith is still circular.

3.) Assuming that He has acted still requires Faith, absent of proof. Although you can say that proof is a personal thing, different for each of us. I have proof that He has acted, so my Faith in God is not circular. I don't see proof that He has done a God-damned thing in my life, or anyone else's for that matter, so in order for me to have Faith in Him, Faith has to be Circular.

4.)There we go, no need for any argument whatsoever.

Have a great time with this one, all of you, but I am going to just sit back and see what happens. :)
 
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water said:
Many of you here are well-acquainted with the argument that faith in God is circular and self-referential.

A while back, I have announced to produce and argument to show how faith in God is not circular.

Here's the argument:

Faith in God is only circular and self-referential if God does not act.


That's it.

The implications are, of course, immense. But the argument is simple.

Thank you.

I do not see the argument nor do I see how the argument can be made. It's not so much the actions of a God that makes a belief or faith in his existence irregardless of lacking evidence circular, but rather the very 'existence' of God. After having asserted his existence, any attached action/inaction is irrelevant.
 
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water said:
Many of you here are well-acquainted with the argument that faith in God is circular and self-referential.

A while back, I have announced to produce and argument to show how faith in God is not circular.

Here's the argument:

Faith in God is only circular and self-referential if God does not act.


That's it.

The implications are, of course, immense. But the argument is simple.

Thank you.

That is the most circular thing I have ever heard.
 
Riddles Riddles Riddles? What for?


Hint: One-way induction will never lead you to enlightenment.

Are you saying that seeking God will never lead anyone to enlightenment unless God acts upon that one to brings them to enlightenment?

The seeker seeks but unless God reveals the seeker seeks in vain?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
WATER said:
Faith in God is only circular and self-referential if God does not act
when god is known through his acts faith is redundant, trust is established.
 
ellion said:
when god is known through his acts faith is redundant, trust is established.
But then, for some (as myself), faith and trust are inseparable. How can there be faith without trust?
 
MarcAC said:
But then, for some (as myself), faith and trust are inseparable. How can there be faith without trust?

faith is a stepping out of the certain into the unknown,
trust is walking in the knowledge with certainty. or thats how it seems to me.
 
Adstar,


Riddles Riddles Riddles? What for?

No riddles. I started this thread with the specific intention that the implications of what I stated in the opening post be identified here, little by little.
I wanted to make everyone think. That's how ... um ... expedient I am.


Are you saying that seeking God will never lead anyone to enlightenment unless God acts upon that one to brings them to enlightenment?

Yes, exactly.


The seeker seeks but unless God reveals the seeker seeks in vain?

If it is God the seeker seeks for, then his quest is in vain, if God doesn't reveal.


* * *

ellion,


when god is known through his acts faith is redundant, trust is established.

Yes, this follows from my premise.


* * *

MarcAC,


when god is known through his acts faith is redundant, trust is established.

But then, for some (as myself), faith and trust are inseparable.

Yes, this is true too. But it is different for you than for someone who doesn't have the experience you have.

This is the main problem here -- we cannot plan or predict how God will respond and how we will respond to that, even though this is exactly what we would like: that our expectation would match our experience, and we want to be sure of this in advance.

This demand, that expectation and experience match perfectly, is a fundamental error though. That's why I said that one-way induction will never lead you to enlightenment.


How can there be faith without trust?

Can you tell us what your faith was like before you knew God?
 
Quote by Adstar:
Are you saying that seeking God will never lead anyone to enlightenment unless God acts upon that one to brings them to enlightenment?

Quote by water:
Yes, exactly.

Well then a agree with you. But then again we have to come to an understanding about the limits of this enlightenment that God allows one to have about Him. What does this "enlightenment" include?

I believe that coming to the conclusion that a "God" exists does not take Gods acting upon a person. People can come to that conclusion by themselves. God can Help people past that rudimentary stage if they seek Him while at the same time asking Him to reveal Himself. The Proud seek God, but the meek seek God and ask God to reveal Himself to them. God resists the proud but assists the meek of spirit.

Now there is a boundary of enlightenment. A limit to how much "knowing" God will allow us to have. God can give someone the basic enlightenment they need. And He can give someone else greater enlightenment. But God never gives total enlightenment or understanding. So there is ALWAYS an element of faith that we must have in God.

One can know (not have faith) that God is the God of Abraham.
One can Know(not have faith) that Jesus is the Messiah.
But if one does not know why God created the universe and mankind or why God allowed History to proceed the way it has, then one must have FAITH in God (Trust in Him) on these matters.
One must be able to say to God "i do not understand why you have done all this but i trust in your wisdom that all you have done is justified".

So enlightenment does not totally dispel the need for Faith. Enlightenment only reduces the boundary of what we are required to have faith in.

Quote by water:
If it is God the seeker seeks for, then his quest is in vain, if God doesn't reveal.

Yes. But i have Faith that God will enlighten all those who seek Him in the right spirit.

Many people who are young think they can create a perfect world or live forever. Many proud people finally come to realize they cannot achieve perfection. Many do not come to this "disillusionment" until they are old. So pride is not always a permanent affliction/block to enlightenment.

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
Adstar,


I believe that coming to the conclusion that a "God" exists does not take Gods acting upon a person. People can come to that conclusion by themselves.

Yes. But this is the god of intellectual inference. It is what one puts there where logic becomes dumb.
But that god of inference is a cold and lifeless philosophical construct.

Definitely not God, that construct is definitely not something one would pray to and worship and most of all, love.


God can Help people past that rudimentary stage if they seek Him while at the same time asking Him to reveal Himself. The Proud seek God, but the meek seek God and ask God to reveal Himself to them. God resists the proud but assists the meek of spirit.

I love the way you put this.

But there is one very hindering circumstance here: The expectations of believers. For someone who is not a member of a religion, the expectations of believers can be a very discouraging thing.

It's paralyzing, sometimes, when one gets told, "No, that certainly wasn't from God, what you think you saw or experienced. If it were from God, it would be like what the Bible says."

Oh well. I've learned though to, at least in theory, resist such demands set by believers. Believers do tend to discourage a newbie, telling him not to trust himself when it comes to God. But it is essential to overcome this conditioning by others.


Now there is a boundary of enlightenment. A limit to how much "knowing" God will allow us to have. God can give someone the basic enlightenment they need. And He can give someone else greater enlightenment. But God never gives total enlightenment or understanding. So there is ALWAYS an element of faith that we must have in God.

I see, and I agree, but I wouldn't call that faith.
I think it once more has to with the problem of expectations of what it is like to experience God, and that these experiences must be something most extraordinary, because if they aren't extraordinary, they aren't experiences of God.
People tend to make it look as if everything must be oh so complicated, or it isn't true.

So, instead of depending on "having faith, even though one doesn't know for sure", I'd rather say it is preferrable to work away those lofty expectations. This is something one can do applying conscious effort, and I can testify it works.


One can know (not have faith) that God is the God of Abraham.
One can Know(not have faith) that Jesus is the Messiah.
But if one does not know why God created the universe and mankind or why God allowed History to proceed the way it has, then one must have FAITH in God (Trust in Him) on these matters.
One must be able to say to God "i do not understand why you have done all this but i trust in your wisdom that all you have done is justified".

Okay. I see what you mean and I agree.


So enlightenment does not totally dispel the need for Faith. Enlightenment only reduces the boundary of what we are required to have faith in.

One can know (not have faith) that God is the God of Abraham.
One can know (not have faith) that Jesus is the Messiah.

Tell me: How is one to love them, if one does not have faith in them?

I mean, you see that I have a grasp of Christianity, and I understand some things, but I'd be making a hollow claim if I'd say that I love Jesus.
I can't make myself love Jesus.


Yes. But i have Faith that God will enlighten all those who seek Him in the right spirit.

Many people who are young think they can create a perfect world or live forever. Many proud people finally come to realize they cannot achieve perfection. Many do not come to this "disillusionment" until they are old. So pride is not always a permanent affliction/block to enlightenment.

Is this in any way aimed against me?
I'm not looking for conflict, I'm just asking.
 
Hi water :)

I read your last post and have been sitting here for an hour thinking about your points, I think it is hard sometimes trying to find another way to say the same thing that one has said before because the first way one said it has been misinterpreted. LOL

I will try my best.

Many people who are young think they can create a perfect world or live forever. Many proud people finally come to realize they cannot achieve perfection. Many do not come to this "disillusionment" until they are old. So pride is not always a permanent affliction/block to enlightenment
Quote by water:
Is this in any way aimed against me?
I'm not looking for conflict, I'm just asking.

It was an attempt to show that there is hope for the proud if they live long enough to overcome their pride. Pride is not always a permanent affliction. I was saying that God helps those with the right spirit, but even those with the wrong spirit can (through life experiences) have the wrong spirit taken away from them(often a very painful experience) and be opened up to receive the truth.



One can know (not have faith) that God is the God of Abraham.
One can know (not have faith) that Jesus is the Messiah.

Quote by water:
Tell me: How is one to love them, if one does not have faith in them?

Now this is where some frustration caused by confusion comes to me. I said before:
One can know (not have faith) that God is the God of Abraham.
One can Know(not have faith) that Jesus is the Messiah.
But if one does not know why God created the universe and mankind or why God allowed History to proceed the way it has, then one must have FAITH in God (Trust in Him) on these matters.
One must be able to say to God "i do not understand why you have done all this but i trust in your wisdom that all you have done is justified".

And you replied with:
Okay. I see what you mean and I agree.

I cannot see how you could understand what i was saying and then turn around and say:

Tell me: How is one to love them, if one does not have faith in them?

:confused:

So i will try another angle.

To have faith in God (trust in God) is not the same thing as having faith that God exists. let that sink in for a bit.

If one has faith in the fact that God exists then one is trusting in whatever source of information that tells them that God exists. From that point on one is trusting in that source of information what the will of God is. So then one is trusting in the source rather than trusting in God. Because to trust in God one must know that God is. Not trust that God is.

So i don't want people to have faith that God exists i want people to know that God exists. Only after one knows that God exists can one have faith in Him. He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


My head now hurts.....


But there is one very hindering circumstance here: The expectations of believers. For someone who is not a member of a religion, the expectations of believers can be a very discouraging thing.

It's paralyzing, sometimes, when one gets told, "No, that certainly wasn't from God, what you think you saw or experienced. If it were from God, it would be like what the Bible says."

The expectations of believers and the expectations of seekers is a manifestation of their pride. Through their expectations they are defining what God should be or what they will accept God to be. They are revealing the "God Box" they have made by their own thoughts. They have decided what God is, often before even seeking Him and are going around trying to find a religion or philosophy that agrees most with them about what God is. There are a miriad of views of God out there and if they look long enough they will find a organization with like minded individuals with a taylor made set of teachings.



Oh well. I've learned though to, at least in theory, resist such demands set by believers. Believers do tend to discourage a newbie, telling him not to trust himself when it comes to God. But it is essential to overcome this conditioning by others.

The problem is not in the advice. The problem is that the seeker does not take that advice, but in fact trusts in the people telling them to trust God. Some people transfer their trust from themselves to their fellow man, to the imam, to the pastor, to the pope, to the guru, to the monk, to the guy on the internet LOL, and the list goes on and on and on.


Ok that’s enough from me for now. I think i might go and watch some brain dead TV,,, my head hurts i cannot handle much more thinking at the moment.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: water i probably haven’t covered all the points in your last post? Let me know and i will have a go at them later.
 
Adstar,



Please keep in mind that my experience and knowledge of Christianity may be somewhat "untypical". Cris said that what I say is more than a little bizzare ...


It was an attempt to show that there is hope for the proud if they live long enough to overcome their pride. Pride is not always a permanent affliction. I was saying that God helps those with the right spirit, but even those with the wrong spirit can (through life experiences) have the wrong spirit taken away from them(often a very painful experience) and be opened up to receive the truth.

Yes. Also, it's somewhat important to note that the world teaches us to be proud.


I cannot see how you could understand what i was saying and then turn around and say:

Tell me: How is one to love them, if one does not have faith in them?

It's just that to know is not the same as to love.


To have faith in God (trust in God) is not the same thing as having faith that God exists. let that sink in for a bit.

I know.
A theist has faith/trust in God, and loves God, but first of all, knows God.
A deist has faith that God exists, but has no particular relation to God.


If one has faith in the fact that God exists then one is trusting in whatever source of information that tells them that God exists. From that point on one is trusting in that source of information what the will of God is. So then one is trusting in the source rather than trusting in God. Because to trust in God one must know that God is. Not trust that God is.

Yes. Like I've said earlier elsewhere, people tend to believe in their reasons for believing in something, which is not the same as believing in said thing.


So i don't want people to have faith that God exists i want people to know that God exists. Only after one knows that God exists can one have faith in Him. He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But how is one to *know* that God exists?


The expectations of believers and the expectations of seekers is a manifestation of their pride. Through their expectations they are defining what God should be or what they will accept God to be. They are revealing the "God Box" they have made by their own thoughts. They have decided what God is, often before even seeking Him and are going around trying to find a religion or philosophy that agrees most with them about what God is. There are a miriad of views of God out there and if they look long enough they will find a organization with like minded individuals with a taylor made set of teachings.

Like I said earlier, I believe God exists, but I don't know what He is like. This is what I am trying to find out.
And this is where the denomination problem comes in: Each denomination has its particular view of God, and each one is a particular reductionism. As such, it is not acceptable to just go and join some denomination.


The problem is not in the advice. The problem is that the seeker does not take that advice, but in fact trusts in the people telling them to trust God. Some people transfer their trust from themselves to their fellow man, to the imam, to the pastor, to the pope, to the guru, to the monk, to the guy on the internet LOL, and the list goes on and on and on.

Yes, precisely.
But this is exactly what some believers want us to do! Some are deeply personally offended if one rejects them and sets the Bible as a higher authority than them.
They are personally saddened if we don't join them in their religion/denomination, and it seems that to them, to not trust them is the same as not trusting God.
It's emotional blackmail, what they do.


Ok that’s enough from me for now. I think i might go and watch some brain dead TV,,, my head hurts i cannot handle much more thinking at the moment.

Oh no!


PS: water i probably haven’t covered all the points in your last post? Let me know and i will have a go at them later.

You know that I have the mind of an elephant and the memory of a tree. I will bring up whatever interests me, in due time.

P.S.
:)
 
Water,
The seeker seeks but unless God reveals the seeker seeks in vain?
You agree, yes? Somewhere, you agreed.

What if you seek something other than God? Must that thing reveal itself to you? I suppose in terms of concrete realities, then everything ought to be somewhat self revealing. That's the nature of our percieved universe. Build a long enough telescope or smash enough atoms and the stars and particles will reveal themselves. Must we climb Olympus, then, to find the Gods?
 
Roman,


The seeker seeks but unless God reveals the seeker seeks in vain?

You agree, yes? Somewhere, you agreed.

We must be exact here.

I said:

If it is God the seeker seeks for, then his quest is in vain, if God doesn't reveal.


What if you seek something other than God? Must that thing reveal itself to you?

Depending on the thing in quest.


I suppose in terms of concrete realities, then everything ought to be somewhat self revealing. That's the nature of our percieved universe. Build a long enough telescope or smash enough atoms and the stars and particles will reveal themselves.

The problem is more of the reductionist fallacies coming from the way we analyze the world.
Differentiaiton is an illusion. For something to exist as separate, it must only be named. (Courtesy of Spidergoat.)
So one of the reasons why we don't find something can be that its existence is only inferred by us due to our particular analysis of objective reality.

For example, in nuclear physics, it is hard to say whether all those particles really exist, or whether their existence was merely inferred in order to patch.up a previous theory, in order to make it consistent.
So ...


Must we climb Olympus, then, to find the Gods?

No. If it is God we seek, God will come to us.

This at least, I suppose.

The quest for God seems more rewarding than all other quests, because God responds if He is sought. (As it is postulated (in Christianity and some other religions.)

Whether you believe that a certain kind of particles exists depends solely on *you* and your methodolgy.

Whether you believe that God exists depends on *God*.

I take the trouble with believing God's existence is in that humans insist to take the burden of proof on themselves.
 
water said:
I know.
A theist has faith/trust in God, and loves God, but first of all, knows God.
A deist has faith that God exists, but has no particular relation to God.


:)

Water:

Can a deist love God?

I would call myself a deist, I seek god, I believe in what I seek but I will not attempt to define what I seek (i.e. have knowledge). Therefore I do not have the revelatory conviction that I understand I would need to be called a theist.

Or am I just mis-defining myself.
 
Hi water :)

Like I said earlier, I believe God exists, but I don't know what He is like. This is what I am trying to find out.
And this is where the denomination problem comes in: Each denomination has its particular view of God, and each one is a particular reductionism. As such, it is not acceptable to just go and join some denomination.

If you believe a denomination teaches something against the Word Of God, Then to join with it is to add support to the lie they teach. Why do people think they must join any denomination???? I have not belonged to a denomination for over 20 years.



Yes, precisely.But this is exactly what some believers want us to do! Some are deeply personally offended if one rejects them and sets the Bible as a higher authority than them.They are personally saddened if we don't join them in their religion/denomination, and it seems that to them, to not trust them is the same as not trusting God. It's emotional blackmail, what they do.

Its only emotional blackmail if one is out to please other men. If one is looking for the approval of people then of course one will compromise their faith and put the approval of God below the approval of the world. I spend a lot of time communicating on "religious" web sites sometimes witnessing sometimes in fellowship. I often have the same experience you describe above. When the crunch comes then i choose God and i don't care if i stand alone. If one is not prepared to stand alone in ones faith then what's the value of ones faith?

Mark 10
28 Then Peter began to say to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You." 29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
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