On Spinoza and Right Action

N

nene

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Banned
Spinoza's ethics if I remember correctly or whatever it is that I gathered from reading some of him is based mostly on the good or right of an individual weather or not their action is just.

This starts at freedom and just and good behavior or whatever else and states that an individual is good in Gods eyes, Good and right action is always necessary. No bad action is ever taken, and this was leading in my mind to the right or just behavior of what I have considered to be that of psychopaths and such wherein there is classifications of psychopaths and these are primed in simply how one is raised but going further politically speaking one would arrive upon the truth of how they are innocent considering such an ethical existence of an absolute.

It is this question regarding the people in jails and locked away in homes which although seems quite obvious to some has more than a fair share of existence upon debating.....

It is that one is never wrong, one action is always correct, there is never a worse decision made

All this means it that criminals are criminals because of their decisions, right or wrong there is not ever a worse choice made therefore you'd consider that it is environmental conditioning, or certain circumstances which lead one to understand one to be in the wrong or in the right.


I'm posting this as a form of debate so that someone here on this forum can see that I have come to this site to debate with other scientists and good and like minds who enjoy debate and also someone who maybe can be inspired by my posting. It is my firm belief that an individual who is conditioned however he is conditioned is innocent, just, right, and in the name of the law deserving of every other condition that anyone else makes.

Does this make criminals innocent. I leave that decison to you in this thread and it is the question I was wanting to raise.

My opinion is yes, it makes everyone innocent and there is therefore not a criminal who exists other than as a category "criminal" or a conditoned response to stimuli or something.

Don't ask me how one would kno that one is guilty, and I wanted to raise that here.
 
In all that, are you saying that nobody is a criminal because it was just how they were raised to think and behave and therefore it is not their fault ?

Please confirm if I understand you correctly.
 
jpappl said:
In all that, are you saying that nobody is a criminal because it was just how they were raised to think and behave and therefore it is not their fault ?

Please confirm if I understand you correctly.
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generally speaking you're right.
 
nene said:
generally speaking you're right.
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Ok, well then I would agree that in their minds they are not doing something wrong, but there are laws and rules put in place to protect the rest of us from some monster spawned by monsters who do horrible things believing that they are normal.

Remember the guy who raped and killed two children in Idaho. He was raped almost everyday of his life by his family members, uncles etc, he thought it was normal to do this to young children.

So if your premise is that they should go free because of how they were raised I would say you are crazy. It is not relevant to the result.

We can either lock them up (the nuts, monsters and otherwise screwed up human beings ) or we can just go back to old west style justice and shoot em. But to let them free, which we do all the time to re-offend is insane.

we could and maybe should take it a step further and go after the people who screwed them up in the first place, but where does it end. The bottom line is they have to be responsible for their actions, that is all we have.

Knowing that many of them are the result of being raised by monsters themselves or a monster, if something happened to my wife/kids/family I would be ready to take out the whole damn lot of them. But then again, maybe they were raised by a loving family and just lost it along the way or had mental issues that they didn't treat.

It's not societies fault they are that way but it's our responsibility to put them away so they don't hurt anyone else.
 
jpappl said:
Ok, well then I would agree that in their minds they are not doing something wrong, but there are laws and rules put in place to protect the rest of us from some monster spawned by monsters who do horrible things believing that they are normal.

Remember the guy who raped and killed two children in Idaho. He was raped almost everyday of his life by his family members, uncles etc, he thought it was normal to do this to young children.

So if your premise is that they should go free because of how they were raised I would say you are crazy. It is not relevant to the result.

We can either lock them up (the nuts, monsters and otherwise screwed up human beings ) or we can just go back to old west style justice and shoot em. But to let them free, which we do all the time to re-offend is insane.

we could and maybe should take it a step further and go after the people who screwed them up in the first place, but where does it end. The bottom line is they have to be responsible for their actions, that is all we have.

Knowing that many of them are the result of being raised by monsters themselves or a monster, if something happened to my wife/kids/family I would be ready to take out the whole damn lot of them. But then again, maybe they were raised by a loving family and just lost it along the way or had mental issues that they didn't treat.

It's not societies fault they are that way but it's our responsibility to put them away so they don't hurt anyone else.
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I completely disagree.

I'm proposing that no action is wrong. Every decision made is always the best decision ever made.

This is some philosophy but also put into the morality because it sets out on the way to describe how criminals, every individual, is entirely and compelty innocent as you've stated clearly.

Anyway, by your logic thats the bottom line but the truth is that it is not the bottom line whatsoever.
IMO there is no action to be taken only discussion to be made as to how there can be a conclusion with regards to this line of thought. If one considers that every choice is the right choice and no other choice is ever any better, aside from that being mostly philosophy, it's also obvious that philosophy inspires justice, which is morality or ethics.

It's not really a question of what to do with the bad people who don't do anything good for society really in the first place... it's more a civilized discusson about how one goes about considering them from the perspective I have been talking about ty for your suggestions.
 
jpappl said:
Ok, well then I would agree that in their minds they are not doing something wrong, but there are laws and rules put in place to protect the rest of us from some monster spawned by monsters who do horrible things believing that they are normal.

Remember the guy who raped and killed two children in Idaho. He was raped almost everyday of his life by his family members, uncles etc, he thought it was normal to do this to young children.

So if your premise is that they should go free because of how they were raised I would say you are crazy. It is not relevant to the result.

We can either lock them up (the nuts, monsters and otherwise screwed up human beings ) or we can just go back to old west style justice and shoot em. But to let them free, which we do all the time to re-offend is insane.

we could and maybe should take it a step further and go after the people who screwed them up in the first place, but where does it end. The bottom line is they have to be responsible for their actions, that is all we have.

Knowing that many of them are the result of being raised by monsters themselves or a monster, if something happened to my wife/kids/family I would be ready to take out the whole damn lot of them. But then again, maybe they were raised by a loving family and just lost it along the way or had mental issues that they didn't treat.

It's not societies fault they are that way but it's our responsibility to put them away so they don't hurt anyone else.
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Lol. Morally speaking your saying that we should simply lock up all the nuts nutters murderers psychopaths, whoever else.

IMO society cannot and wont ever achieve that kind of attention. Yeah call a little bit egotistical or whatever but if you ask me, what your stating is just as crazy as what I am saying (ethics of spinoza).
 
IMO society cannot and wont ever achieve that kind of attention. Yeah call a little bit egotistical or whatever but if you ask me, what your stating is just as crazy as what I am saying (ethics of spinoza).
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No, what I am stating is that you are not taking it far enough. You have not thought it through.

Ultimately there is a reason we have created these rules and laws and boundaries. You are not considering why.

You have placed yourself in the shoes of the criminal.

Now it's time to place yourself in the shoes of the victim.
 
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