NPI Analysis: Abolish Affirmative Action

[S.A.M.]

What is allowing a certain race a foot in the door over another based purely on the colour of their skin if it isn't racism?

The basis is oppressed minorities who are unfairly treated otherwise.

i.e. get rid of the unfair treatment and you get rid of the reason for the policy.

It so happens that it in your case, it is synonymous to racism, in other places it is casteism or gender discrimination.

 

[Avatar]

The basis is oppressed minorities who are unfairly treated otherwise.

And by oppressing others you somehow make the situation better?
I fail to see. And I don't really care how much you fuck up the USA with your discrimination policies.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

So in India, who are the races/ethnicities receiving/giving affirmative action?

 

[S.A.M.]

So in India, who are the races/ethnicities receiving/giving affirmative action?

Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are communities that are accorded special status by the Constitution of India. These communities were considered 'outcastes' and were excluded from the Chaturvarna system that was the descriptive social superstructure of Hindu society in the Indian subcontinent for thousands of years. These communities had traditionally been relegated to the most menial labour with no possibility of upward mobility, and subject to extensive social disadvantage and exclusion, in comparison to the wider community. The Scheduled Tribes were unable to participate in the community life of the Indian Society and were thus deprived of any opportunity for integration with the rest of the society and corresponding opportunities for educational, social and economic growth. The Scheduled Caste peoples are also known as Dalits; Scheduled Tribe people are also referred to as Adivasis. Gandhi used the terms Harijan and Girijan respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduled_Castes_and_Tribes

The disadvantage faced by such a large section of Hindu society (SCs/STs together comprise over 24% of India's population, with SC at over 16% and ST over 8% as per 2001 census; this proportion has remained fairly stable for many decades).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scheduled_Tribes_in_India

There is no racism and ethicism in India. We are too busy with our incredibly complex casteism.

PS even conversion to Islam or Christianity changes the situation very little for these people, though it is a major reason for doing so.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Well, that's more than a little different from western affirmative action.

 

[S.A.M.]

And by oppressing others you somehow make the situation better?
I fail to see. And I don't really care how much you fuck up the USA with your discrimination policies.

Only if the others see themselves as oppressed. In India we try to focus on the benefits to the whole society, not certain communities. Most Indians are willing to accept lower benefits if they believe it is to the greater advantage of the country.

I am not from the US.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well, that's more than a little different from western affirmative action.

Not in absolute terms. The high caste/classes see the lower classes as undeserving/inferior. It has taken a lot of aggressive promotion of affirmative action by educated and intelligent policy makers to change this mindset and make the policy successful.

In practical terms, it means the same thing. You get rejected in schools, colleges, government jobs and bureaucratic positions due to not belonging to the said list. (I don't and I did).

 

[Blackrain]

So....we fight discrimination by discriminating?

GF, so you acknowledge that equaly qualified blacks are passed over due to race right? Since that is an established fact. What do you suggest we do about it?

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Depends. In an immigrant nation like the USA I would say that is an injustice. Here in my country I'd just say "get used to it".

 

[Neildo]

I say get rid of affirmative action. Yeah, you should be hired based off skills alone, but life ain't fair. For blacks complaining that they lose a job to a white guy, white guys complain about losing jobs to a girl with big tits. Everyone favors one group over the next. Hot women trump all.

One thing that always sticks in my mind, especially here in Southern California. There used to be this Indian engineer that complained about how hard it was to get work around here. He would always complain about needing to be bilingual for this and that job. Heh, he'd always say he wasn't just bilingual, he was trilingual. He spoke English, Farsi, and German. Too bad bilingual these days means you gotta speak Spanish.

- N

 

[Blackrain]

Depends. In an immigrant nation like the USA I would say that is an injustice. Here in my country I'd just say "get used to it".

Saying just "get used to it" is not going to fly. What country are you from? And when did non-land owners get the right to vote? When did minorities get the right to vote? When did women get the right to vote? If we used just "get used to it" in our country. The only people with any Political Power would be White men. And that's what you prefer? That we just get "use" to?

Discrimination is an injustice. And you can't build a moral society by giving all the privellages to the people who have the most instruments of death (Guns). Because we all know might=right on Planet Earth.

 

[Blackrain]

I say get rid of affirmative action. Yeah, you should be hired based off skills alone, but life ain't fair. For blacks complaining that they lose a job to a white guy, white guys complain about losing jobs to a girl with big tits. Everyone favors one group over the next. Hot women trump all.

One thing that always sticks in my mind, especially here in Southern California. There used to be this Indian engineer that complained about how hard it was to get work around here. He would always complain about needing to be bilingual for this and that job. Heh, he'd always say he wasn't just bilingual, he was trilingual. He spoke English, Farsi, and German. Too bad bilingual these days means you gotta speak Spanish.

- N

Funny that you would say that HOT WOMEN trumps all. That's true. Dateline NBC did an undercover investigation where they sent an ugly woman, with immaculate academic creditials to interview for an open job. They sent another woman, who was HOT in for the same job. With the bare minimum of education needed to land the job. Well, I'm pretty sure you know how this turned out. They told the ugly woman, that no positions were open. And the "HOT" woman.... They hired her ON THE SPOT LOL. So that we can agree on.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Saying just "get used to it" is not going to fly.

Why not?

What country are you from?

The UK.

And when did non-land owners get the right to vote? When did minorities get the right to vote? When did women get the right to vote?

Fuck knows x 3....but personally I believe that the working class should be excluded from voting entirely as they are too easily swayed by tawdry ad campaigns and baby kissing.

If we used just "get used to it" in our country. The only people with any Political Power would be White men. And that's what you prefer? That we just get "use" to?

Personally I don't believe that there should be anyone living permanently in my indigenously white country other than white people, so yes, white people should have "all the power".

I don't know where you are from, but in a true multi-ethnic nation where the indigenous population have been wiped out (i.e the US), sure....equality should be something you strive for, but discriminating to stop discrimination is completely stupid.

 

[Blackrain]

Personally I don't believe that there should be anyone living permanently in my indigenously white country other than white people, so yes, white people should have "all the power".

.

Hmmm, are you a White Nationalist? You're probably a member of www.stormfront.org right? I have nothing against people who want to live in segregated societies. To bad you weren't alive 200 years ago heh? Evolution sucks doesn't it

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

LOL, the generic overreaction. I never get sick of that one.

I wouldn't call myself a white nationalist, but perhaps you can tell me what's wrong with being a white nationalist in an indigenously white country?

 

[madanthonywayne]

Due to these successes, the rate of development of lower castes in all strata of society, public and private, have increased exponentially to the point where the current generation no longer considers caste or class barriers as relevant. This is difficult to appreciate if you did not know the rigid caste and class stratifications which were a part of Indian society and the oppression of lower classes in the past.

Yet you still need affirmative action? How long must it continue? Forever?

Students have set themselves on fire in universities to protest against the unfairness where allocation of seats means that inspite of having very very good grades, they are refused admission. i.e. a student with a 90% grade is rejected in favor of one with a lower 50% grade.

And you still support affirmative action! WTF! It is creating a situation so unfair that people are lighting themselves on fire! In the worst of racist oppression in the US, no one ever set themselves on fire! Damn. All this injustice to alleviate what? As you said:

Today, it is difficult to find a an area where caste, class and gender differences have not been overcome.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yet you still need affirmative action? How long must it continue? Forever?

Do you believe that the oppression of thousands of years can be wiped out in a couple of generations? It's not even 60 years since independence. I figure at least 5 more generations should do it. Besides, its not hurting us any. The reverse, in fact.

And you still support affirmative action!

Of course. It's my country, they are my people.

WTF! It is creating a situation so unfair that people are lighting themselves on fire! In the worst of racist oppression in the US, no one ever set themselves on fire!

We Easterners tend to over react; its a constitutional weakness; I'd say anyone with a good grade who sets himself on fire does not commend himself very well does he? Sorry, but I'm not a great believer in martyrdom as a form of self exxpression.

I like to give the example of Dhirubhai Ambani
http://muraleedharan.tripod.com/legends_dhirubhaiambani.html

 

[James R]

So we correct past injustice with present injustice. Good policy.

No. We compensate for past injustice until the playing field is level.

It doesn't matter. Every time a minority gets a promotion over a whiteman, the assumption is it's due to affirmative action.

That's a racist assumption. Most people aren't racist.

My Grandfather tells me that when he was young, the very best doctors were black. If they weren't, they never would have made it through the racist system to become doctors. Now he says, they're the worst.

And he's an expert on the medical profession, I assume.

If racism is wrong, it is always wrong. Be it "to redress past injustices" or simply to keep them darkies in their place. The existance of affirmative action implies that is OK to assign rights based on race.

The concept of race, flawed as it is, has had huge social impacts. We are now trying to redress some of the harms which have occurred due to past racism.

 

[madanthonywayne]

No. We compensate for past injustice until the playing field is level.

And when will that be? I'll tell you when. Never.

That's a racist assumption. Most people aren't racist.

No it's not. It's people telling themselves they deserve the promotion, not the other guy. Any time someone is promoted it pisses off those passed over. Affirmitive action just brings a racial element into it.

And he's an expert on the medical profession, I assume.

No, but he knows that if people of a certain race are given preference in admissions to medical school; doctors of that race will be of a lesser caliber than those not given such a preference. Conversely, if a certain group is discriminated against in admissions, those that get through must be of particularly high quality.

The concept of race, flawed as it is, has had huge social impacts. We are now trying to redress some of the harms which have occurred due to past racism.

By inflicting harm in the present. As I said before, minorities may come to regret keeping alive the idea of allocating benefits based on race. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Thomas Sowell has a lot to say about affirmative action, for instance:

What about the notion that affirmative action has helped blacks rise out of poverty? The black poverty rate was cut in half before affirmative action -- and has barely changed since then.

What about the notion that blacks would not be able to get into colleges and universities without affirmative action? After group preferences and quotas were banned in California's state universities, the number of black students in the University of California system has risen.

How could this be?

Fewer are attending Berkeley and more are attending other universities, whose normal admissions standards they meet. These students are now more likely to graduate, which is the whole point. Before, they were being used like movie extras to create a background -- until most either dropped out or flunked ou

So when not "helped" by affirmative action, they went to colleges they were actually qualifed for. Then they actually graduated instead of dropping out.
As to the Indian paradice [should I say Nirvana?] induced by affirmative action:

However, the cost of inefficiency is overshadowed by the cost of intergroup polarization, violence, and loss of lives. Bloody and lethal riots over affirmative action in India are the most obvious examples, but there have also been young brahmins who have died by setting themselves on fire in protest against policies which have destroyed their prospects..

Another example:

The history of Sri Lanka is even more chilling to those who are concerned about what actually happens in the wake of affirmative action policies, as distinguished from what was expected or hoped would happen. Sri Lanka’s well-deserved reputation as a country with exemplary relations between its majority and minority populations in the middle of the twentieth century has become a bitter mockery in the course of a decades-long civil war, marked by hideous atrocities.

So you take a country with relatively good racial relations, add affirmative action, and get hideous atrocities.

Anyway, here's the link. A good debunking of affirmative action. http://www.hooverdigest.org/044/sowell.html

 

[James R]

No, but he knows that if people of a certain race are given preference in admissions to medical school; doctors of that race will be of a lesser caliber than those not given such a preference.

I'd really like to see hard evidence which backs that up.

Conversely, if a certain group is discriminated against in admissions, those that get through must be of particularly high quality.

Not necessarily. Perhaps they bought their way in.

After group preferences and quotas were banned in California's state universities, the number of black students in the University of California system has risen.

How could this be?

Could be a continuation of a general trend which wouldn't have happened without affirmative action policies.