NPI Analysis: Abolish Affirmative Action

[CaptainJackSparrow]

NPI Analysis: Abolish Affirmative Action

Repeal Executive Order 11246: “Unnecessary
burden of direct and indirect costs to taxpayers;
undercuts merit-based employment practices.”
MCLEAN, VIRGINIA — In a review of “affirmative action” policies,
researcher and statistician Edwin Rubenstein declares that a rollback
of race and gender preferences “may be one of the most
efficient pro-growth policies available to the federal government.”
In an NPI Analysis paper entitled “Affirmative Action and
the Costs of ‘Diversity’: Racial Preferences Thrive Under Bush
Administration” (#100; published by the National Policy Institute
and available at its website, WWW.NATIONALPOLICYINSTITUTE.ORG),
the author explains that affirmative action programs:
• put a cloud over minority workers who have
advanced because of their innate ability.
• reduce incentives of both groups to perform at
their best— the preferred because they don’t have to,
the non-preferred because extra effort seems futile.
• increase incentives to hire illegal immigrants who
cannot sue for alleged EEOC violations.
• force employers to spend billions on compliance
instead of productive investments, thereby reducing
employment opportunities for all groups.
The author points out that raw political power is fueling the affirmative action agenda:
Reverse discrimination is the law of the land. To affirmative action ideologues, however, it’s “pay back”
time, when white American males must atone for their alleged economic advantages—even if they grew up
poor. “White males are the only growth area for the modern victim movement,” says John Leo, a contributing
editor at U.S. News and World Report. “Everybody else is covered.’” In typical Washington style, a program
designed to aid ‘disadvantaged minorities’ metastasizes into a near-universal entitlement. Is there a method to
this madness? You bet: By casting a wide affirmative action net the federal government has vastly increased
political support for such programs.

FOR RELEASE: Friday, September 30, 2005
CONTACT: Peter B. Gemma, Media Director
703-442-0558
pbg@nationalpolicyinstitute.org

http://nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/affirmativeaction.pdf

 

[Blackrain]

Affirmative Action is Bullshit. It's a tool used by politicians to solicit the Black & Women Voters. I've never received a Job because I'm Black. I can't walk into the Sandia National Laboratory and tell them to hire me Because Im Black. And If they don't I'm going file suit for discrimination. However, If my resume show's that I have relevant experience, and I have the social skills to make it through the interview, then I'll most likely get the job.

But I'm going to share some facts with you to explain why we need affirmative action.

Study: white ex-cons chosen over blacks

Princeton study of 1,500 NYC businesses also shows criminal history trims employment prospects.
June 17, 2005: 12:32 PM EDT

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/17/news/economy/hiring_bias/index.htm?section=money_latest

So I'm going to use numbers to prove my case. Do you have any numbers to prove your side of the case? On to the facts.

The 1972 Furman V. Georgia case abolished the death penalty for four years on the grounds that capital punishment was rife with racial disparities. Over twenty five years later, those disparities are as glaring as ever.


African Americans are 12% of the U.S. population, but are 43% of prisoners on death row. Although Blacks constitute 50% of all murder victims, 83% of the victims in death penalty cases are white.

Since 1976 only ten executions involved a white defendant who had killed a Black victim.

In all, only 37 of the over 18,000 executions in this country's history involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.

A comprehensive Georgia study found that killers of whites are 4.3 times more likely to receive a death sentence than killers of Blacks.

More than 75% of those on federal death row are non-white. Of the 156 federal death penalty prosecutions approved by the Attorney General since 1988, 74% of the defendants were non-white.

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/fiveRs1.html

Ok, there's 2 CLEAR examples of discrimination. On with the facts!

Car-Loan Rates Marked Up More for Blacks, Report Says

By Caroline E. Mayer
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 1, 2003; Page E01

African Americans were almost three times as likely as whites to be charged markups on loans financed by General Motors Acceptance Corp., according to an analysis by an expert working for minority borrowers in a lawsuit against the nation's second-largest auto lender.

When charged a markup -- a higher-than-normal interest rate -- black borrowers paid an average of $1,229 in extra interest over the life of the loans, compared with the average of $867 paid by whites, the study of more than 1.5 million GMAC loans made between 1999 and April of this year concluded.

Free E-mail Newsletters
TechNews Daily Report
See a Sample | Sign Up Now
Personal Finance
See a Sample | Sign Up Now
Personal Tech
See a Sample | Sign Up Now

Black postal workers paid an average of $811 more than white postal workers to get car loans, the report said. Black teachers paid an average of $595 more than white teachers. Even black GM employees paid more than their white counterparts to get a loan, Vanderbilt University business professor Mark A. Cohen wrote in the report, filed Aug. 29 in U.S. District Court in Nashville

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25258-2003Sep30?language=printer

Do you see where I'm going here? Anyone who disagree's please present your facts. I don't care to your emotional tirades. Only facts.

FOREIGN ASIAN MEN DOCKED 23-25%, US BORN 13-20% FOR BEING ASIAN VS WHITE
Institute for Asian American Studies (U Mass Boston) Fall 2002
Marlene Kim U Mass Boston presented study that found that compensating
for all other factors, Asian men are underpaid 23-25% due to their race, despite
higher education. They should be making more, not less than foreign born white men. U.S.
born men are underpaid 13-20% due to race.

http://www.arthurhu.com/index/discrim.htm

Man, this is getting tireing, I sure hope you all have some facts to support why Affirmative Action isn't needed. On with my case.

In one of the most innovative of these new studies, Marianne Bertrand of the University of Chicago and Sendhil Mullainathan of MIT measured the extent of race-based job discrimination in the current labor market.

Their study is titled ''Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?'' The re searchers sent fictitious resumes in response to help-wanted ads, each randomly assigned either a white-sounding name (Emily Walsh, Brendan Baker) or a black-sounding name (Lakisha Washington, Jamal Jones).

The study found that applicants with white-sounding names were 50 percent more likely to get called for an initial interview than applicants with black-sounding names. What's more, higher quality resumes provided little advantage for black applicants.

Less employment for blacks

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0929-02.htm

I think you all get my point. Just because you're not racist, doesn't mean rascism doesn't exist. I date alot of white women. I can tell you, WHITE MEN HATE IT WHEN WHITE CHICS DATE BLACK DUDES! Every White Girlfriend I've had, has told me stories about NUMEROUS White mean calling her a Nigger lover, or Race traitor, because she has a Black Boyfriend. By mentioning this I'm not saying all whites are racists. Most of my best friends are white. And will do things for me that my Black Friends wouldn't. Things are getting better in this country. But if you come from the South like I do, then you know racial equality is a long way off.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Affirmative Action is Bullshit. It's a tool used by politicians to solicit the Black & Women Voters.

But I'm going to share some facts with you to explain why we need affirmative action.

So more Black murderers are executed than white murderers? So what. They're all murderers. The only problem is we're not executing enough white murderers. In my opinion, anyone convicted of first degree murder should be executed. Race is irrelevent.

As far as the rest of your facts, irrelevent. You show that there exists some disparity in distribution of various things among the different races. Do you have any proof that this disparity is due to racism? Let's say you do. Will discrimination against white males result in less racism? Is that your theory?

Let's see. I'm an average white guy, trying to provide for my family. I put in for a promotion, but some black guy gets the job because of affirmative action. This happens over and over again. Each time, I get less and less racist.

That makes a lot of sence.

 

[Blackrain]

Let's see. I'm an average white guy, trying to provide for my family. I put in for a promotion, but some black guy gets the job because of affirmative action. This happens over and over again. Each time, I get less and less racist.

Prove it... I proved my side of the case with Numbers. And I don't think a Black Person should get a Job over and equally qualified White person. Here's the facts I laid out.

1. More blacks are executed then whites for the same crimes

2. Eventhough a Black person has the same credit score as a White person. The Black person will get a higher rate. Until you can show me statistics that illustrate that Blacks are getting lower rates then Whites with the same Credit score. I'm going to assume Blacks are paying a higher rate due to race. And this Country has a history of racism. And the disturbing statistics that I've laid out for you prove that some segments of our socitey are still biased towards Blacks.


3. I showed the MIT study where they sent out the same resume to potential employers, the only thing different were the names. The White named resumes were called at a higher rate then the Black sounding names. Remember it was the same resume!! But I like it how you foollishy ignore the facts.

4. I've pointed out the fact that Asian men are paid 10 to 23% lower then their white counterparts. Eventhough the Asians are better educated (on average)

Now please show me your statistics, studies, something. That proves your side of the case. I'm not doubting that you were passed over because you're White. Because I think that's bullshit. And I'm with you all the way on that. President Bush can barely speak a coherent sentence. And he's the President. If this Country was 70% Black instead of 70% white, do you think Bush would of been elected? Blacks are just as racist as Whites. That's why the minority will allways be discriminated against if we don't have safeguards in place to ensure an even playing field.

 

[James R]

So more Black murderers are executed than white murderers? So what. They're all murderers.

We can discuss the death penalty in a separate thread if you like. In fact, not all people convicted and on death row are guilty. Far too many, it turns out, are innocent.

Another question is whether death is a reasonable penalty in any case.

You show that there exists some disparity in distribution of various things among the different races. Do you have any proof that this disparity is due to racism?

There's ample proof of that. America had a policy of segregation in the past. Are you aware of that?

Let's see. I'm an average white guy, trying to provide for my family. I put in for a promotion, but some black guy gets the job because of affirmative action.

I think the number of cases where you're comparing two people equal in all respects except race for a promotion would be next to none.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Now please show me your statistics, studies, something. That proves your side of the case.

I'm not denying that racism exists. My argument is based entirely on priciple, statistics have nothing to do with it.

There's ample proof of that. America had a policy of segregation in the past. Are you aware of that?

Really? I hadn't heard. So we correct past injustice with present injustice. Good policy.

I think the number of cases where you're comparing two people equal in all respects except race for a promotion would be next to none.

It doesn't matter. Every time a minority gets a promotion over a whiteman, the assumption is it's due to affirmative action. This causes resentment among the majority, and causes everyone to doubt the qualifications of minorities.

My Grandfather tells me that when he was young, the very best doctors were black. If they weren't, they never would have made it through the racist system to become doctors. Now he says, they're the worst.

If racism is wrong, it is always wrong. Be it "to redress past injustices" or simply to keep them darkies in their place. The existance of affirmative action implies that is OK to assign rights based on race.

Minorities may come to regret keeping this idea alive when they could have put an end to this kind of thinking once and for all.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

So what? No one likes 'groids and no one wants to hire them?

What should we do about that?

Should we punish white people for being more successful or should we maybe say "Hey, 'groids, maybe no one likes you for a reason". Affirmative action is as stupid as artificially pumping food into unsustainable populations in africa.

 

[S.A.M.]

Affirmative action is required to provide opportunities for those groups which are otherwise discriminated against. When India gained independence, we established affirmative action to help those groups which were previously considered to be on the lower rungs of the caste system as well as for those who were traditionally at the fringes of society, such as economically depressed groups and other backward classes (OBCs) such as tribes from remote areas in the country. Special accomodation was also given for women in education, employment and politics (currently the political quota for women is 33%).

The issue of quota versus quality has been argued ad nauseum by eminent economists and policy makers in the country; sometimes the dilineation of reservations by caste and class means that wealthy people belonging to a lower caste or class gain advantages lost to poorer members of a higher caste/class. There have been several fundamental rethinks in policy, changing allocations of seats in different parts of the educational system starting from primary school and moving gradually up to the government sector, with current rethinking extending to the non-governemnt or private sector.

My opinion about this policy is this.

India's economy grew at 6 percent a year from 1980 to 2002 and at 7.5 percent a year from 2002 to 2006 -- making it one of the world's best-performing economies for a quarter century. In the past two decades, the size of the middle class has quadrupled (to almost 250 million people), and 1 percent of the country's poor have crossed the poverty line every year. At the same time, population growth has slowed from the historic rate of 2.2 percent a year to 1.7 percent today -- meaning that growth has brought large per capita income gains, from $1,178 to $3,051 (in terms of purchasing-power parity) since 1980. India is now the world's fourth-largest economy. Soon it will surpass Japan to become the third-largest.

That is inspite of serious over-population, extreme poverty, a fledgling democracy (we gained independence in 1947), a rigid social structure and caste/class system, poor education , we have managed to do the impossible; i.e. we have assimilated all the castes and classes into mainstream society, and we have done it without economic or social losses. Today, it is difficult to find a an area where caste, class and gender differences have not been overcome. Literacy has increased from 18% in 1951 to 65% in 2001. There are lower classes/castes in all strata of society from the top positions in government (Prime Minister of India himself, HD Deve Gowda, was a member of a lower caste) to all government branches, to all pubic sector undertakings. Note that this has not been a painless procedure and every change in the reservation policy (especially to the advantage of the lower classes) has been strongly challenged or opposed. Due to these successes, the rate of development of lower castes in all strata of society, public and private, have increased exponentially to the point where the current generation no longer considers caste or class barriers as relevant. This is difficult to appreciate if you did not know the rigid caste and class stratifications which were a part of Indian society and the oppression of lower classes in the past. Reservations have slowly but certainly led to better representation of the lower castes/classes in the bureaucracy and society though the changes are still seen to be greater in the lower rungs of the hierarchy.


In short, affirmative action works. India is the living proof of it.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

So....we fight discrimination by discriminating?

 

[S.A.M.]

So....we fight discrimination by discriminating?

Is it discrimination to provide opportunities for a segment of society (one which may not otherwise have access to those benefits) that would make it productive and lead to the overall development of that segment in such a way as to benefit the country?

Depends on what the aim is. Is the aim a better society where all have equal rights and opportunities. Is the aim that the country should move forward as an entity and not as individuals? Is the aim that society itself should be strong, productive and progressive? Do we want to maintain differences between people or do we want to have a better tomorrow?

In the short term, there are many adjustments. Students have set themselves on fire in universities to protest against the unfairness where allocation of seats means that inspite of having very very good grades, they are refused admission. i.e. a student with a 90% grade is rejected in favor of one with a lower 50% grade. But for every student who set himself aflame thousands more had access to education they would never have got on their own. They may have only managed 50% due to poor incentives or even abilities but the next generation will get at least 70 and the next will get 90.

This is not discrimination. This is moving forward as a society, with special consideration for the slower moving so that no one is truly left behind. Sure, this means that some of the faster guys have to slow down, but they would not get very far on their own in any case.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Discrimination is discrimination.

Like I always say, you can't eliminate child molestation by fucking the offender's kids.

If we need to move towards equality, we need to do so by ensuring that everyone is treated equally. Not for giving perks based on race which is just as bad as missing out based on race.

 

[S.A.M.]

The analogy is ridiculous and the discrimination is to make up for years of oppression.

Payback is a bitch.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

So, let me get this straight. Foreigners can come to my indigenously white country, and I should have a lower chance of getting a job than them, just because I'm white?

Is it only racism when the person on the receiving end isn't white? Are white people the only racists?

If you're a foreigner in a foreign country it shouldn't exactly disgust or surprise you that you should have a harder time getting a job than a local.

If we've oppressed anyone it's because we can. It's called being more successful....a thing which in nature is rewarded, so why should we punish it?

 

[Avatar]

Sorry for the cliche phrase, but it's very suited: Two wrongs don't make it right.
Affirmative action is like allowing jews to make death camps.
A slight slippery slope, I know, but it's of the same type.

Discrimination is discrimination. Even if you call it by another name.

 

[S.A.M.]

So, let me get this straight. Foreigners can come to my indigenously white country, and I should have a lower chance of getting a job than them, just because I'm white?

Hey if the "white" people are so good, nothing should hold them back, right?

Is it only racism when the person on the receiving end isn't white? Are white people the only racists?

Do you see the average white male/female looked upon as an inferior member of society? Are white people spit upon, not allowed to enter certain establishments or considered as slaves or less than human?

If you're a foreigner in a foreign country it shouldn't exactly disgust or surprise you that you should have a harder time getting a job than a local.

Logically if you are smarter, better educated and more productive, you should be preferred and get higher pay and benefits, even if you are Asian or black. Does this happen?

If we've oppressed anyone it's because we can. It's called being more successful....a thing which in nature is rewarded, so why should we punish it?

Ah, because now the tables are turned and now they can.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Hey if the "white" people are so good, nothing should hold them back, right?

So it's fine to discriminate against white people. Is that what you're saying?

Do you see the average white male/female looked upon as an inferior member of society? Are white people spit upon, not allowed to enter certain establishments or considered as slaves or less than human?

Why should we be in the societies that we built? I wouldn't be surprised, or frankly care much, that white people would be treated as second class citizens in, for example, arab countries, and I don't think that foreigners should take it for granted that they receive full citizenship in ours, never mind perks.

What it comes down to is that foreigners want a slice of the white man's pie and expect to just come here and get it. When they're treated like less than a full citizen of this indigenously white country, they piss their pants. When they're treated better....silence. Foreigners don't give a shit about equality when the situation is to their advantage. They don't give a shit about poverty as long as it's not affecting them, and here are the white people saying "treat everyone equally" and "feed the starving 'groids" and what do we get for it?

Logically if you are smarter, better educated and more productive, you should be preferred and get higher pay and benefits, even if you are Asian or black. Does this happen?

I'm sure it would happen.

Ah, because now the tables are turned and now they can.

Only while we're letting them.

 

[S.A.M.]

So it's fine to discriminate against white people. Is that what you're saying?

There are no (or negligible) white people in India. Affirmative action is not about skin colour. Even women needed affirmative action in India to move forward.

Why should we be in the societies that we built?

Built how? Did you sit at home and produce it from thin air? btw, I doubt you were there.

I wouldn't be surprised, or frankly care much, that white people would be treated as second class citizens in, for example, arab countries, and I don't think that foreigners should take it for granted that they receive full citizenship in ours, never mind perks.

Would you rather they built their societies the same way "you" did?

What it comes down to is that foreigners want a slice of the white man's pie and expect to just come here and get it.

Strange how much of the pie came from their kitchens to begin with.

I'm sure it would happen.

Then one would rethink the position on affirmative action. We do it all the time in India.

Only while we're letting them.

You seem to have a post-colonial hangup.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Why the fuck does everyone demand that I personally built everything built by my nation in order to refer to us as "we"? Is it no longer acceptable to refer to your people as "we"? Please stop doing that samcdkey.

If our "pie" came from their "kitchens" it's their own fault for letting us "steal" it.

You still can't see that racism is racism no matter what you call it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why the fuck does everyone demand that I personally built everything built by my nation in order to refer to us as "we"? Is it no longer acceptable to refer to your people as "we"? Please stop doing that samcdkey.

I'd heard the Scots were dour, but really!

If our "pie" came from their "kitchens" it's their own fault for letting us "steal" it.

Well then, by your logic, if the governement wants affirmative action, you have to put up with it.

You still can't see that racism is racism no matter what you call it.

And you seem to forget that the topic is NOT racism.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

What is allowing a certain race a foot in the door over another based purely on the colour of their skin if it isn't racism?