No Gods

altec

One seeking truth
Registered Senior Member
Without God, there is no longer any objective standard by which to judge good and evil. This realization was very troubling to philosophers a few decades ago, but it hasn't really had much of an effect in other circles. Most people still seem to think that a universal morality can be grounded in something other than God's laws: in what is good for people, in what is good for society, in what we feel called upon to do. But explanations of why these standards necessarily constitute "universal moral law" are hard to come by. Usually, the arguments for the existence of moral law are emotional rather than rational: "But don't you think rape is wrong?" moralists ask, as if a shared opinion were a proof of universal truth. "But don't you think people need to believe in something greater than themselves?" they appeal, as if needing to believe in something can make it true. Occasionally, they even resort to threats: "but what would happen if everyone decided that there is no good or evil? Wouldn't we all kill each other?"

The real problem with the idea of universal moral law is that it asserts the existence of something that we have no way to know anything about. Believers in good and evil would have us believe that there are "moral truths"—that is, there are things that are morally true of this world, in the same way that it is true that the sky is blue. They claim that it is true of this world that murder is morally wrong just as it is true that water freezes at thirty two degrees. But we can investigate the freezing temperature of water scientifically: we can measure it and agree together that we have arrived at some kind of objective truth [that is, insofar as it is possible to speak of objective truth, for you postmodernist motherfuckers!]. On the other hand, what do we observe if we want to investigate whether it is true that murder is evil? There is no tablet of moral law on a mountaintop for us to consult, there are no commandments carved into the sky above us; all we have to go on are our own instincts and the words of a bunch of priests and other self-appointed moral experts, many of whom don't even agree. As for the words of the priests and moralists, if they can't offer any hard evidence from this world, why should we believe their claims? And regarding our instincts—if we feel that something is right or wrong, that may make it right or wrong for us, but that's not proof that it is universally good or evil. Thus, the idea that there are universal moral laws is mere superstition: it is a claim that things exist in this world which we can never actually experience or learn anything about. And we would do well not to waste our time wondering about things we can never know anything about. When two people fundamentally disagree over what is right or wrong, there is no way to resolve the debate. There is nothing in this world to which they can refer to see which one is correct—because there really are no universal moral laws, just personal evaluations. So the only important question is where your values come from: do you create them yourself, according to your own desires, or do you accept them from someone else... someone else who has disguised their opinions as "universal truths"?

Haven't you always been a little suspicious of the idea of universal moral truths, anyway? This world is filled with groups and individuals who want to convert you to their religions, their dogmas, their political agendas, their opinions. Of course they will tell you that one set of values is true for everybody, and of course they will tell you that their values are the correct ones. Once you're convinced that there is only one standard of right and wrong, they're only a step away from convincing you that their standard is the right one. How carefully we should approach those who would sell us the idea of "universal moral law," then! Their claim that morality is a matter of universal law is probably just a sneaky way to get us to accept their values rather than forging our own, which might conflict with theirs.

So, to protect ourselves from the superstitions of the moralists and the trickery of the evangelists, let us be done with the idea of moral law. Let us step forward into a new era, in which we will make values of our own rather than accepting moral laws out of fear and obedience. Let this be our new creed: There is no universal moral code that should dictate human behavior. There is no such thing as good or evil, there is no universal standard of right and wrong. Our values and morals come from us and belong to us, whether we like it or not; so we should claim them proudly for ourselves, as our own creations, rather than seeking some external justification for them.

But if there's no good or evil, if nothing has any intrinsic moral value, how do we know what to do?

Make your own good and evil. If there is no moral law standing over us, that means we're free—free to do whatever we want, free to be whatever we want, free to pursue our desires without feeling any guilt or shame about them. Figure out what it is you want in your life, and go for it; create whatever values are right for you, and live by them. It won't be easy, by any means; desires pull in different directions, they come and go without warning, so keeping up with them and choosing among them is a difficult task—of course obeying instructions is easier, less complicated. But if we just live our lives as we have been instructed to, the chances are very slim that we will get what we want out of life: each of us is different and has different needs, so how could one set of "moral truths" work for each of us? If we take responsibility for ourselves and each carve our own table of values, then we will have a fighting chance of attaining some measure of happiness. The old moral laws are left over from days when we lived in fearful submission to a nonexistent God, anyway; with their departure, we can rid ourselves of all the cowardice, submission, and superstition that has characterized our past.

Some misunderstand the claim that we should pursue our own desires to be mere hedonism. But it is not the fleeting, insubstantial desires of the typical libertine that we are speaking about here. It is the strongest, deepest, most lasting desires and inclinations of the individual: it is her most fundamental loves and hates that should shape her values. And the fact that there is no God to demand that we love one another or act virtuously does not mean that we should not do these things for our own sake, if we find them rewarding, which almost all of us do. But let us do what we do for our own sake, not out of obedience to some deity or moral code! But how can we justify acting on our ethics, if we can't base them on universal moral truths?

Morality has been something justified externally for so long that today we hardly know how to conceive of it in any other way. We have always had to claim that our values proceeded from something external to us, because basing values on our own desires was (not surprisingly!) branded evil by the preachers of moral law. Today we still feel instinctively that our actions must be justified by something outside of ourselves, something "greater" than ourselves—if not by God, then by moral law, state law, public opinion, justice, "love of man," etc. We have been so conditioned by centuries of asking permission to feel things and do things, of being forbidden to base any decisions on our own needs, that we still want to think we are obeying some higher power even when we act on our own desires and beliefs; somehow, it seems more defensible to act out of submission to some kind of authority than in the service of our own inclinations. We feel so ashamed of our own aspirations and desires that we would rather attribute our actions to something "higher" than them. But what could be greater than our own desires, what could possibly provide better justification for our actions? Should we be serving something external without consulting our desires, perhaps even against our desires?

This question of justification is where so many hardcore bands have gone wrong. They attack what they see as injustice not on the grounds that they don't want to see such things happen, but on the grounds that it is "morally wrong." By doing so, they seek the support of everyone who still believes in the fable of moral law, and they get to see themselves as servants of the Truth. These hardcore bands should not be taking advantage of popular delusions to make their points, but should be challenging assumptions and questioning traditions in everything they do. An improvement in, for example, animal rights, which is achieved in the name of justice and morality, is a step forward at the cost of two steps back: it solves one problem while reproducing and reinforcing another. Certainly such improvements could be fought for and attained on the grounds that they are desirable (nobody who truly considered it would really want to needlessly slaughter and mistreat animals, would they?), rather than with tactics leftover from Christian superstition. Unfortunately, because of centuries of conditioning, it feels so good to feel justified by some "higher force," to be obeying "moral law," to be enforcing "justice" and fighting "evil" that these bands get caught up in their role as moral enforcers and forget to question whether the idea of moral law makes sense in the first place. There is a sensation of power that comes from believing that one is serving a higher authority, the same one that attracts people to fascism. It's always tempting to paint any struggle as good against evil, right against wrong; but that is not just an oversimplification, it is a falsification: for no such things exist. We can act compassionately towards each other because we want to, not just because "morality dictates," you know! We don't need any justification from above to care about animals and humans, or to act to protect them. We need only to feel in our hearts that it is right, that it is right for us, to have all the reason we need. Thus we can justify acting on our ethics without basing them on moral truths simply by not being ashamed of our desires: by being proud enough of them to accept them for what they are, as the forces that drive us as individuals. And our own values might not be right for everyone, it's true; but they are all each of us has to go on, so we should dare to act on them rather than wishing for some impossible greater justification.

:bugeye:
 
altec said:
... Thus we can justify acting on our ethics without basing them on moral truths simply by not being ashamed of our desires: by being proud enough of them to accept them for what they are, as the forces that drive us as individuals. And our own values might not be right for everyone, it's true; but they are all each of us has to go on, so we should dare to act on them rather than wishing for some impossible greater justification....

:bugeye:

But what if 'our ethics' is the rejection of any moral claim. The Pirate, Bandit and Republican all agree that what can be taken by Force becomes their legitimate Property. That is what we term "Barbarism". Is that what you want?

Civilization requires that we each respect a basic set of Rules and adhere to a basic set of Obligations and Duties. When people no longer adhere to such Rules, Duties and Obligations, then Civilization inevitably declines into a maelestrom of Barbarism where life for all becomes 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short'. And, apparently, that is what you would regard as the perfect world.
 
Leo Volont said:
But what if 'our ethics' is the rejection of any moral claim. The Pirate, Bandit and Republican all agree that what can be taken by Force becomes their legitimate Property. That is what we term "Barbarism". Is that what you want?

Civilization requires that we each respect a basic set of Rules and adhere to a basic set of Obligations and Duties. When people no longer adhere to such Rules, Duties and Obligations, then Civilization inevitably declines into a maelestrom of Barbarism where life for all becomes 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short'. And, apparently, that is what you would regard as the perfect world.
I think you're missing the point of his post. He wasn't saying that we should abandon ethics; he was merely saying that ethics aren't based on universal moral truths. You can’t objectively prove that stealing, for example, is inherently wrong – it’s just something that we tend to agree on.
 
Without God, there is no longer any objective standard by which to judge good and evil.

As if stoning people to death for working on a sabath, would be moral today?.

Morality although adopted mainly by religious rhetoric is not based on religious grounds, but on the grounds of survival of a species, thus primitive cultures used the god comcept to "force" their moral ethics on ingnorant masses. However this is no longer the case, one can be atheist and yet be moral, it seems that what you are coming to conclusion here is that "atheism" as an amoral stance because we reject the religious god compcept. Nothing can be further from the truth, it's religious rhetoric, who have commited atrocities to humanity ten fold in millenias compared to the relative minor stance of atheistic societies. (However to point out that those atheistic societies rejected the god compcept with another form of mystical influence; The state is thought to be all knowing and all powerfull by these societies, thus replacing god, with the state.)

Godless.
 
Nasor said:
I think you're missing the point of his post. He wasn't saying that we should abandon ethics; he was merely saying that ethics aren't based on universal moral truths. You can’t objectively prove that stealing, for example, is inherently wrong – it’s just something that we tend to agree on.

Once you toss Ethics up for grabs then it is possible to get what you have now -- in America you have the Conservatives teaching that Greed is the Ultimate Virtue -- they call it Freedom and Opportunity. They've made Free Trade the 11th Commandment which is simply an excuse for the Big Capitalists to throw open the doors of smaller economies for easy pillaging.

Religion is founded on the notion that God (yes, there is a God) inspired certain Prophets with actual viable Ethical Codes by which Civilization could thrive and prosper. Once it is allowable to toss out these Divine Ethical Codes, then we open the way for the Barbarians to insert their own self-serving Rules, just as we have seem them do in America... and also in Europe -- the Free Masons who have taken over the Governments of every Western Country are little less Barbaric and Greedy then the worse George Bush (though not nearly as stupid... I will give them that).
 
Godless said:
As if stoning people to death for working on a sabath, would be moral today?.

Godless.

When the Capitalists begin to insist that you give up your weekends so that you can slave in order to keep their products 'competitive' then you might wish that somebody would stone them.

The Sabath Regulations were the first measures to bring decent working conditions to the Poor, and here you are condemning them. Only Satan would be arguing to grind the Faces of the Poor as you seem to be doing.
 
Without God, there is no longer any objective standard by which to judge good and evil

How about: harm vs no harm plus consequences? Why is it hard to be a philanthropist without believing in gods? Why is it that people must always be scared into civilized behavior? Yes it was necessary before, but religion has only proven to be a seed of more disagreements and violence. Ever since Christianity got to be approved by the Roman Empire, there were heretics and bloody clashes. Religion does not prevent people from stealing or adultery or murder.It is necessary only to entertain our fancy.
 
Without God, there is no longer any objective standard by which to judge good and evil.
I disagree. I don't see how God would provide such an objective standard anyway. We have no way of knowing what he'd have set the standards to be, without him telling us, and that just hasn't happened.
Most people still seem to think that a universal morality can be grounded in something other than God's laws: in what is good for people, in what is good for society, in what we feel called upon to do.
I fail to see why it can't be.
The real problem with the idea of universal moral law is that it asserts the existence of something that we have no way to know anything about.
Ethics is ultimately about the best way of getting what you want. One can use logical reasoning to come to conclusions about what constitutes right and wrong.
Believers in good and evil would have us believe that there are "moral truths"—that is, there are things that are morally true of this world, in the same way that it is true that the sky is blue. They claim that it is true of this world that murder is morally wrong just as it is true that water freezes at thirty two degrees.
You misunderstand, I think. I would not say murder is always wrong. That is something to be determined by ethics, which is based on moral virtues. It is the moral virtues (such as trust) which are universal. Normally murder would be wrong, unless it were the lesser of two evils; eg. killing one to save many.
When two people fundamentally disagree over what is right or wrong, there is no way to resolve the debate. There is nothing in this world to which they can refer to see which one is correct—because there really are no universal moral laws, just personal evaluations.
If it is accepted that ethics is essentially a strategy for getting what you want, it can be determined which "strategy" is best. While one's ethics may be subjective, moral virtues are not. Anyone can recognize the value of trust.
Haven't you always been a little suspicious of the idea of universal moral truths, anyway? This world is filled with groups and individuals who want to convert you to their religions, their dogmas, their political agendas, their opinions.
Such things certainly have been misused...
If there is no moral law standing over us, that means we're free—free to do whatever we want, free to be whatever we want, free to pursue our desires without feeling any guilt or shame about them.
Sure, you're free to do what you want, but with freedom & power comes responsibility. You may feel like beating the crap out of someone who gives you a dirty look, but you can't escape the consequences. That's why it's better to respect people's rights. It gives them incentive to respect yours.
You can’t objectively prove that stealing, for example, is inherently wrong – it’s just something that we tend to agree on.
Whether or not stealing is wrong is a matter for one's code of ethics, which is derived from moral values. Taking something which doesn't belong to you shows a lack of respect for others' rights, and it gives others reason not to respect yours. If, on the other hand, it belonged to you in the first place, then go ahead and take it back.

With enough thought, one comes to realize that what is good for society is good for the members of society. Each member of society benefits indirectly from things that benefit society as a whole. Ultimately, benefiting others benefits yourself, so the best "strategy" is probably close to what your parents taught you about right and wrong.
 
Alpha said:
.... I don't see how God would provide such an objective standard anyway. We have no way of knowing what he'd have set the standards to be, without him telling us, and that just hasn't happened..

The Great prophetic Law Makers of the various Civilizations needed to demonstrate their Holiness, their connection to God, to an extensive and powerful Priesthood. Then it was understood that the Laws they formulated would be good for the entire Collective.

It is easy to be cynical, but you do not really need to believe in God in order to believe in a deeper psychological trance state that roots into a Collective Group Consciousness.

Indeed, the extensive and entrenched Priesthoods also did not believe in their own Prophets simply on their word for it. Prophets had to establish their credibility with various miracles. Just like in any Politics, the setting forth of a New Law would require one heck of a Mandate. A People and even a Priesthood would have to be convinced in order to all get behind the program without the destructive dissent that we know ordinarily exists in the World of Human Institutions.

An instance of a Strong Spiritual Mandate can be found in the Mission of Saint Vincent Ferrer who Preached in Western and Southern Europe approximately a Century before the Reformation. Vincent Ferrer was easily the Greatest Saint in History, eclipsing even Christ (if such a thing can be said without being struck by lightening). His Preaching and Miracles were remembered for Generations and the peoples to whom he preached proved to be impervious to Protestant incursions.

But eventually the Cultural Memory of Things Holy grows dim and Divine Law given to us from men of Divine Vision is widdled away by the dubious murmerings of moral relativism. It brings us such Moral Innovations as the 'Moral Values' now popular in America which sets up Greed as the new supreme Virtue and wishes to use Free Trade to destroy every local economy in the World, and replaces "turn the other cheek" for Pre-emptive Strikes to justify a World Wide Genocide. We should therefore be very careful before we exchange the Law of the Prophets with any Law passed to us by schemers and oligarches.
 
I think that if a society could define hard limits of unacceptable exploitation,
then we can do away with the artificial and oh-so-subjective 'good' and
'evil' pseudo-concepts and work with a simple, measurable, and realistic
behavioral expectations and corresponding laws. Heck we could even
put in reinforcers for those whom exceed well defined limits of altruism.
 
So the generally gist here is that you all believe that there may not be a 'universal' code of moral values that are inherantly right or wrong, but we do things based on what keeps society running, and bettering itself?

Why would we want to better a war machine that clearly does not have our interests at heart?
 
The Great prophetic Law Makers of the various Civilizations needed to demonstrate their Holiness, their connection to God, to an extensive and powerful Priesthood. Then it was understood that the Laws they formulated would be good for the entire Collective.
Where did you learn about capitalization?
It is easy to be cynical, but you do not really need to believe in God in order to believe in a deeper psychological trance state that roots into a Collective Group Consciousness.
What does that have to do with anything?
So the generally gist here is that you all believe that there may not be a 'universal' code of moral values that are inherantly right or wrong, but we do things based on what keeps society running, and bettering itself?
Not necessarily.
Why would we want to better a war machine that clearly does not have our interests at heart?
A war machine? You are obviously not talking about global society, for there's nothing for it to be at war with. There are different levels of society, and I suspect you're referring to the society that constitutes the USA. If that level of society isn't beneficial to you, or is detrimental to global society, then by all means, do something about it. But you can still support global society, and your local society (at the city and state levels). Or even just your neighbourhood. Benefit and support that which benefits you, and oppose that which is ultimately detrimental. The best strategy would be for everyone to benefit society as a whole. Keep in mind that you may want to support something somewhat detrimental when it is the lesser of two evils.
 
altec said:
Without God, there is no longer any objective standard by which to judge good and evil. :bugeye:

What about all those State and Federal Laws on the books? BTW Mankind created all Gods. Mankind created all Laws so to make things simple Mankind is the source of all morality.
 
Laws do not govern what is good and evil, they keep the members of a society from causing enough uproar to do any harm to the state.
 
The Biblical "eye-for-an-eye" when wronged and the Qur'anic "reward-in-paradise-with-virgins" (note: only males need apply) when killing infidels, are prime examples of miscreant system of moral laws.

A far better system is found in Ayn Rand's Selfish Objectivism. I should first do good for myself, but in the process not harm others because doing so ultimately harms myself. It's really a modification of the Golden Rule.
 
There is no "good" or "evil" or "right" or "worng." There are conflicting interests. Societal laws attempt to resolve these conflicts in ways most acceptable to the people within the society.
 
Poor choice of a word on my part, whitewolf, if you were addressing my post. I should have posted "I should first benefit myself,...", but I thought that was implied.

But whether "good", "evil", "right" and "wrong" are appropriate terms depends on the context. I take your meaning to be in the context of morality.
 
I understood you well and agreed. :)
I recall "good" and "evil" being mentioned in fairy tales. After analysing carefully some major political conflicts in today's world and previous history, I decided that terms "good" and "evil" are only for fairy tales. One can rarely wish to benefit himself without consequently opposing someone else's interests, even if no opposition is obvious.
 
whitewolf, hense, good and evil aren't to be relegated simply to cost/benefit analysis within the interactive societal structure. That this may not be done doesn't negate the possibility of the applied notions of good and evil in the world, it simply means that the terms are misrepresented and misunderstood.
 
doesn't negate the possibility of the applied notions of good and evil in the world
May I ask, in which cases?
You seem to make it sound like costs and benefits in economics; I didn't mean it so, I meant to apply my idea to all action done by beings. For example, a roach runs by. He is searching for food to survive, having no idea he harms the household by spreading germs and scaring women. Yet people say roaches are evil, or bad. I say, the roaches aren't bad. They are trying to survive. The humans kill the evil roaches, choosing not to recognize that they inflict death and pain. That doesn't make humans evil or bad in any way, they are merely trying to protect themselves. See, conflicting interests.
 
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