No eternal life for Christains. Eden go bye-bye.

This would all be true except that Jesus Christ came down in the flesh and atoned for all of our sins including Adam's transgression. Thus breaking the bonds of death and allowing us to return to our Father in Heaven and partake of eternal life.
 
Oh, man... the Lifetree is not a physical tree here on earth, it symbolizes God's kingdom. If you eat the words of God you eat the fruits from the Lifetree..
 
itopal said:
You do realize Yahweh destroyed Eden right?
In the Noachian Flood – correct?
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You are assuming that Eden was of the World, and not a Spiritual Astral Place.

Remember, Adam and Eve were made to leave Eden and an Angel was put on guard. Also remember that God had wandered in this Garden. Are you concluding that God and Angels were wandering about on Earth!?

It seems more consistent with Spiritual Truths to suppose that the Curse upon Adam was to toss him out of the Spiritual Realms.

My supposition is that Adam and Eve were not originally animals, but Spirits, and that God's Curse was to interr Adam and Eve's souls into animal bodies. This goes far in explaining why there was so much breeding stock already available for the sons of Adam. Adam and Eve's children that had somewhat spiritual souls were breeding with souless primates. It formed an evil combination which required the Flood to correct, or at least to mitigate. To this day Humanity is a mix of Adamic Spirituality and primate animality.

The different Paths of Mystical Spirituality all have the same goal of attempting to loosen the ties to the animal and the Earthly, and to regain the
Spirituality of the Higher Astral Realms. What of the Angel with the Flaming Sword which guards the Garden as a condition of Adam's Curse? I think that the Advent of Mary in the Immaculate Conception and of Christ Her Son have set that Forbidding Angel aside. At least I know that there have been Souls who have visited The Garden and were not stopped from doing so.
 
Brutus1964 said:
This would all be true except that Jesus Christ came down in the flesh and atoned for all of our sins including Adam's transgression. Thus breaking the bonds of death and allowing us to return to our Father in Heaven and partake of eternal life.
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You are assuming that everything Paul said was true. Everything you claim comes from Paul, not Christ.

Have you ever read Anne Catherine Emmerich? The "Life of Jesus" in Four Volumes is splendid. It unconsciously lays out a depiction which supposes that the important moment in the Advent of Christ was no so much his Death as His being born. That the World had suddenly become worthy enough for Mary the Immaculate Conception was a remarkable break through that had taken more than a millenium since Abraham... it had not been intended to take that long, but the good thing was that it happened at all. Anne Catherine Emmerich saw that that was the work of Elijah who, seven generations prior to Mary had set up a Religious Brotherhood, the Essenes, who would guard the Community of the Line of David going to Mary.

Emmerich saw that when Christ was born, many of the Demons and Demigods that had so peopled the Mythologies of the World simply saw that their time was over and departed the World. The Messianic Era had arrived and was already in force. It was only because Paul had been in on the plot to murder Christ that it was so very important for him to come up with an argument that would vindicate that act of slaughter, and so Paul recast the event to make the worst crime ever committed against God to appear as though it had been an intentional Sacrifice. We know that is not so. Christ prayed all night to God to permit Him to escape the Trial, Torture and Crucifixian. So it was not something that He had planned for. Then we have the Three Kings of the Orient who came to Christ out of regard to their own Prophecies and Traditions which envisioned Christ in the role of King of Kings, and NOT as a sacrificial Lamb.

Christians should reexamine what they believe and determine whether the only reason they believe certain doctrines is because they were asserted by paul the murderer of Christ. Why would he be telling the truth? If he is already a murderer, there is a good chance he might also be a liar.
 
We do have another book that testifies of Christ and clarifies his teachings and purpose. It is The Book of Mormon. It tells of Christ appearing to the peoples of the American continent after his resurrection. The "other sheep" that Christ mentioned in the Bible were other peoples of the world who were cut off from the Holy Land at the time of Christ. There are traditions in the Mayan culture along with many Indian cultures that a white God came to them. Taught them and promised to one day return. The sky god Quatzequatel meaning”Feathered Serpent” is the Mayan version of this tradition. In the Old Testament the messiah is often referred to as a serpent. An example is when Moses and his people put a bronze serpent on a cross and all that looked upon it were healed. It is that symbol that is the basis for the modern day doctor’s symbol.
 
You are assuming that Eden was of the World, and not a Spiritual Astral Place.
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You would be wrong in saying 'assumption'. In this particular issue, it would be evident to say that from what the biblical text states, Eden was "of the world". While you can ignore the written accounts and 'assume' whatever you like, it is an unfounded 'assumption' and nothing more. In short, you're basically adding whatever you want to it without paying any attention to what is actually written.

Genesis 2:10 details Eden's actual location, (which is clearly southern Iraq). There is absolutely nothing to imply it was located in the twilight zone, but that it was located here, on earth, below the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

Simply put, you have no case.

Remember, Adam and Eve were made to leave Eden and an Angel was put on guard. Also remember that God had wandered in this Garden. Are you concluding that God and Angels were wandering about on Earth!?
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Oh, is there a problem with that? god is unable to do that? I realise he doesn't like being seen too much, but at that time there were only 2 people in the garden of eden, who supposedly would have known god rather personally.

You have this distinct gift of being able to ignore all and any evidence presented, to claim completely make believe scenarios, and then fail on all counts to back it up with anything even remotely credible - relying solely on complete assumption and personal fantasy.

As some advice, I would suggest that you read the bible whenever you get a free moment.

An example is when Moses and his people put a bronze serpent on a cross and all that looked upon it were healed. It is that symbol that is the basis for the modern day doctor’s symbol.
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That is inaccurate.

It is the staff or rod of Aesculapius (also called Asklepios), the ancient mythical god of medicine. His Greek name was Asklepios and his Roman name Aesculapius. In reality, Asklepios may have been a real person who was renowned for his gentle, humane remedies and his humane treatment of the mentally ill. His followers established temples called asclepions, temples of Asklepios, temples of healing. The greatest asklepion was in a grove of trees south of Corinth, Greece where the sick had to spend a night while the proper remedies were revealed during a dream to the priests of the temple and the cured had to make a suitable sacrifice (usually a rooster) to the god. According to mythology, Asculapius had a number of children including Hygieia, the goddess of health (from whose name comes the word "hygiene") and Panaceia, the goddess of healing (from whose name comes the word "panacea" for a universal remedy). Today, the staff of Aesculapius is a commonly used symbol of medicine. It is the symbol of the American Medical Association (AMA) and many other medical societies. (medicine.net)
 
Snakelord wrote
That is inaccurate.

It is the staff or rod of Aesculapius (also called Asklepios), the ancient mythical god of medicine. His Greek name was Asklepios and his Roman name Aesculapius. In reality, Asklepios may have been a real person who was renowned for his gentle, humane remedies and his humane treatment of the mentally ill. His followers established temples called asclepions, temples of Asklepios, temples of healing. The greatest asklepion was in a grove of trees south of Corinth, Greece where the sick had to spend a night while the proper remedies were revealed during a dream to the priests of the temple and the cured had to make a suitable sacrifice (usually a rooster) to the god. According to mythology, Asculapius had a number of children including Hygieia, the goddess of health (from whose name comes the word "hygiene") and Panaceia, the goddess of healing (from whose name comes the word "panacea" for a universal remedy). Today, the staff of Aesculapius is a commonly used symbol of medicine. It is the symbol of the American Medical Association (AMA) and many other medical societies. (medicine.net)
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Ok you are right about the doctor’s symbol. Still Moses did hold up a bronze serpent upon a cross. That part of my post is correct. I wonder how some of these Greek mythologies came out in the first place. I believe a lot of them came from actual events, or people, or other religious traditions.
 
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Brutus1964 said:
We do have another book that testifies of Christ and clarifies his teachings and purpose. It is The Book of Mormon. It tells of Christ appearing to the peoples of the American continent after his resurrection. The "other sheep" that Christ mentioned in the Bible were other peoples of the world who were cut off from the Holy Land at the time of Christ. There are traditions in the Mayan culture along with many Indian cultures that a white God came to them. Taught them and promised to one day return. The sky god Quatzequatel meaning”Feathered Serpent” is the Mayan version of this tradition. In the Old Testament the messiah is often referred to as a serpent. An example is when Moses and his people put a bronze serpent on a cross and all that looked upon it were healed. It is that symbol that is the basis for the modern day doctor’s symbol.
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No, the symbol comes from the greeks.

however the serpent was god in the garden of eden., well that makes sense

also can you provide evidence for this white god, appearing to the mayans, thank you.
 
Still Moses did hold up a bronze serpent upon a cross.
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Indeed, as told to by god. I would however be curious to see where in the OT it 'often' refers to the messiah as a serpent.

Of course, it is not a surprise to see that the mythologies of cultures are somewhat focused upon the local environment and it's dangers. As a result you will find that middle eastern and south american beliefs all include snakes - and deadly snakes at that, whereas Indian beliefs revolve around elephants and tigers. Moving into Egypt, you see their beliefs focused on crocodiles and vultures and so on.

The Sumerian stories that predate the biblical texts are very much focused on the snake/serpent. Indeed, Tiamat, (the mother of all gods), was a serpent - eventually slain by Marduk and chopped into seven pieces. When we look at the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Utnapishtim, (the original Noah), we see the plant that will give eternal life being stolen by a serpent. These stories have continued through the ages, and later cultures have incorporated them into their versions - and indeed added to them. The NT becomes one of not only serpents and vipers, but of taxmen aswell and culminates with the grandest 'danger' of them all: crucifiction. It was so important a part of the culture, it had to be added. What better way to do it than have a demigod killed via that method only to return from the dead and seek his vengeance?

If an Englishman was to now sit down and create a belief, it would undoubtedly include rats, asylum seekers and cross-dressing politicians.

It of course also stands to reason that the very origins of life for these people centered around a land green, fertile and lush, considering they lived in a country that was, and still is, 99.9% sand.

It's quite easy to see the reasoning behind their tales, and while it is an extremely fascinating look into the past, I wouldn't start taking it too literally.

Anyway, I would still be interested to see where the OT often refers to the messiah as a serpent.

Thanks in advance.
 
I came accross an excellent article conserning symbols. It is pertinent to this discussion.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/temple_symbols.htm
By W. John Walsh

Symbols have no power in and of themselves for either good or evil. The power of a symbol comes from what it represents to the user. This means there is no such thing as a good symbol or a bad symbol. The goodness or badness comes from what the symbol represents to the user and how it influences his or her thoughts and actions. All symbols used by Latter-day Saints are used to help us center our faith in Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon teaches:

"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." (2 Nephi 25:26)

If other groups use the same symbols for other purposes, their practices do not change or nullify why we use the symbols that we do. The Church denounces Satanism in the strongest of terms. Let's use two examples to more clearly demonstrate how symbols can be used differently.

The first symbol that we shall discuss is a serpent. If I were to ask someone what or who is represented by a serpent, the vast majority of Christians would say "Satan" and proceed to relate the story of the Garden of Eden and its portrayal of Satan as a serpent:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made." (Genesis 3:1)

It is certainly true that the Book of Genesis uses the serpent as a symbol of Satan. Now, does this mean that anyone who uses a serpent symbol is always a devil-worshipper? If Latter-day Saints were to hold up a serpent as a symbol of their God and place it upon our Church buildings, can there be any doubt that most our of detractors would immediately look upon such usage as a reverence for Satan?

Believe it or not, someone once did create a serpent and use it as a symbol of his God. The man who did this was the prophet Moses and this story is related in the Bible. As punishment for their wickedness and to inspire them towards repentance, the Lord sent fiery serpents to bite and kill many of the ancient Israelites. When the people did repent, then:

"....Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." (Numbers 21:9)

Now, was Moses a devil-worshipper because he used a serpent as a religious symbol? No. In fact, in Numbers 21:8 it is clear that God was the one who told him to make a serpent symbol in the first place. Instead, Moses used a serpent as a symbol of Jesus Christ and the power of his redemption. The Book of Mormon gives further elaboration of this doctrine:

"But, behold, ye not only deny my words, but ye also deny all the words which have been spoken by our fathers, and also the words which were spoken by this man, Moses, who had such great power given unto him, yea, the words which he hath spoken concerning the coming of the Messiah. Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come. And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal." (Helaman 8:13-15)

Now, just to ensure we are clear, almost all Christians recognize the serpent as a symbol of Jesus. For example, a popular Evangelical Christian Bible commentary states:

"The bronze serpent is thus a symbol and type of Christ." (The Evangelical Commentary on the Bible edited by Walter A. Elwell, p. 99)

Therefore, the Bible gives a perfect example of how a symbol can be used to represent radically different things. In Genesis, the serpent is a symbol of the devil. In Numbers, the serpent is a symbol of Jesus. To reiterate, a symbol has no power in and of itself. No symbol is good or evil. The goodness or badness comes from what the symbol represents to the user and how it influences his or her thoughts and actions.
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Satan has a very effective technique of taking symbles of God and using for his own ends. Satan counterfiegts simbols as a means of discriditing them and tries to bring shame upon those who use them.
 
Actually 'Satan' is not mentioned in Genesis, so the idea he was connected with the Serpent in the Genesis myth of the Garden is wrong
The whole gharden myth is taken from Goddess mythology -see Occidental Mythology, Joseph Campbell- where the Serpent represents the guardian of the Tree. The Tree Is Goddess. Representations of the pre-monotheistic Hebrew peoples Goddess was a tree, and carved images of Her werer common

The Serpent has many associations. you HAVe to get into the ancient mind when it comes to understanding myth, especially prepATRIARCHAL MYTH. IT WASN'T REDUCTIVE, it was to be understoos associatively....so for example, SERPENT many may things. amongst them (in pre-patriarchy) symbol of regeneration, and eternal life, in the way it sloughs off old skin; as guardian of Mother Nature, as Goddess, as son of Goddess, Guardian of the Tree of Life, as hallucinogenic Fruit of Tree of Life, of the EXPERIENCE of ecstasy (ie., 'Kundalini--it is described as a sleeping serpent at the base of the spine which can come awake and travel up the spine-'tree'), Also Serpents are frequently reported as being seen in hallucinogenic visions worldwide -see The Cosmic Serpent, Jeremy Narby -. As well as that, we have to also be aware of how serpents move, their poison, the whole awe surrounding them. Mythmakers used all forms of puns, tranliterations, word-play--all forms of literary skils to create many layers of meaning. so it is incredible naive to read myth in a literalist way, without understanding that it is not just the superficial story

The patriarchs demonize the Serpent as can be seen in Genesis. it's nuthin to do with Satan. that character dont appear on the O.T till much later

regarding Jesus' connecton with serpent, in the N.T. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so shall the son of man be lifted up, so that all who believe in him shall have everlasting life." (John 3:14)

If you're serious of understanding about all this you have to research about paganism and its symbol of Serpent. fundamentally Serpent Is the hallucinogenic sacrament...which HEALS

how copme do you think our medical profession came to have it as symbol. But like with religion, the REAL meaning, and freedoms to use it have long since been prohibited, and attempts to even banish this knowledge from public memory.
 
The Garden of Eden is a state of being, not really a place. If the serpent has its head down, towards earth, it's a satanic symbol, but if its head is pointed towards heaven, it's a divine symbol. The snake crawling on the ground, the scorpion, must kill itself to become free from matter, to become a heavenly bird. This means that man must forget himself, his personal desires and do the will of God. Horus, the heavenly bird, flies above all material, and is lord over all snakes. The power of the snake creates a new being and sets a spirit in matter, in a body. But if this energy is converted into pure spiritual energy, it no longer affects in matter, the fire of life now leads the consciousness back to the oneness of paradise.
 
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