News From Gaza
- Thread starter S.A.M.
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Ah but the Palestinians are still there and not going away as hoped
Vega: "Amazing... S.A.M still running away from the question!!
This thread is focused on Gaza: When you attempt to derail it into another topic, you're the one who is running.
(sorry Sam, I know you can defend yourself just fine)
This thread is focused on Gaza: When you attempt to derail it into another topic, you're the one who is running.
(sorry Sam, I know you can defend yourself just fine)
You can't run away from the dead...they always come back to haunt you one way or the other!
we still on the same issue,.just different race of people here!
Veg's on ignore for a time. Less temptation.
Sam: "Veg's on ignore for a time. Less temptation."
OK, then I'll have a go.
I'll briefly humor you, Axes. Please complete this sentence, and show me the parallel:
If Israel is the Homeland for the Jews, India is the Homeland for the ___________.
OK, then I'll have a go.
I'll briefly humor you, Axes. Please complete this sentence, and show me the parallel:
If Israel is the Homeland for the Jews, India is the Homeland for the ___________.
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
It had everything to do with the 1948 war, and the Nazification of the Egyptian Government.
Now after all that where were they suppose to go, and according to U.N. Resolution 242 the land sized from the Jews in Egypt, could be replace by land in Israel in fair exchange.
Where are the displaced Palestinians to go, Baron? You're riding your Liebensraumcycle in circles. Stop and think.
On what basis do you make this assumption? If this is indeed - as you claim - so, then should not the Jews of Israel have similarly kicked out their Arab citizens? Yet they don't, although they do put them under scrutiny.
The evidence is against you; this is not the experience of religious minorities in the islamic world. Unless you mean that tensions will decrease because the minorities will live under a climate of repression and fear, whilst the dominant culture enjoys its empowerment. The multiethnic societies you describe belong to the 15th century (and even entirely at the whim of the dominant culture), not the 21st.
Cyclicity is not the only enemy of reason.
If everyone somehow switched religions, but the same segregationism was forcibly introduced, the results would have been much the same.
GeoffP: "On what basis do you make this assumption?"
On the basis that human beings of every culture have much more in common than separatists, and irrational fears would have us believe. -On the basis of the universally-viral effect of vicious oppression. Victims often take out their rage not on their tormentors, but on the next victims in the chain; on the next viral host of sociopathy.
The profound bitterness of the Holocaust was passed on by zionists, in hard-hearted, dehumanizing oppression against non-Jewish residents of the Levant. Some Palestinian victims of the zionists went on to commit their own atrocities against other creeds- in Lebanon, for example. Every generation makes their collective choices based on reason, or based on blind reactionism. The world's most secure societies are more secure because of the primacy of reason over fear. Reason brings understanding, and understanding brings harmony. Fear destroys reason, and cries for security, but can't deliver it.
That is why the over-arching trend in humanity through history has been the triumph of reason over fear. If it were not so, we would not be having this conversation: If fear and aggression had greater power over us, there would already have been ruthless competitive elimination, and a series of "final solutions" would have already culminated in one single race and culture, or (most likely in the last round of cultural elimination) no survivors at all.
"If [religious irrelevance] is indeed - as you claim - so, then should not the Jews of Israel have similarly kicked out their Arab citizens?"
Oppression and hatred is viral, and becomes a cycle when reason is displaced by fear and hatred- in any culture, in any religion. The aftermath of the Holocaust was explosive- due to an anomolous multiplicity of factors (European and American sentiments of guilt, vulnerabilities in Palestine, surplusses of weaponry in Europe, zionist-separatist aspirations, etc) the 1940s catapulted an Israel into being that was rationally and ethically flawed. That is why Israel remains highly insecure today, no matter what weapons and walls are installed there.
"Yet they don't [kick out other ethnicities], although they do put them under scrutiny."
Israel's insecurity is entirely the result of forced segregation. The Palestinian diaspora is not the result of mere "scrutiny"; it didn't happen by accident.
But the cycle of oppression will be halted by reason. Arab Jews, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Arab Druze, Arab Armenians, other Arab sects, and multiethnic immigrants will all get back to living together in multi-ethnic societies all over the region. As segregationism is dismantled and abolished, tensions will decrease. Obviously, it won't happen overnight. But if humans walk the earth for another thousand years, I expect us to continue becoming more reasonable, and for hacked-out ethnic "Homelands" to become nothing more tangible than bad memories.
"The evidence is against you"
No, multiculturalism was the norm in the Levant before 1948. Multiculturalism is the global and historic trend. When segregationism is put back into the dustbin of Mideast history, a greater equilibrium, and more enduring and prosperous coexistence than ever experienced before will ensue.
"this is not the experience of religious minorities in the islamic world."
It was before the shock of 1948.
"Unless you mean that tensions will decrease because the minorities will live under a climate of repression and fear..."
No, that's not what I mean at all. Mideastern Jews today have become concentrated in a fortress-prison of zionist making, that has triggered a convulsive cycle of separatism, interrupting a larger trend, whereby Jews had been experiencing integration into societies all across the region, just like minorities have been, and continue to integrate in less paranoid societies all over the world.
"[minorities live in fear], whilst the dominant culture enjoys its empowerment."
Such an environment damages everyone involved- oppressor, and oppressed. Segregationism is a regressive, dysfunctional, insecure way to structure a society. The more humanity learns our history, the more we hold certain truths self-evident, and the better our societies function.
"The multiethnic societies you describe belong to the 15th century (and even entirely at the whim of the dominant culture), not the 21st."
Wrong. Arab Jews were a visible part of the cultural tapestry, all across the Mideast before 1948. The "triumph" of zionism was by far the greatest disaster for Mideast multiculturalism in modern times, causing a global cascade of disasters for multiculturalism. Other minorities suffer too, because of the confrontationalism each new convulsion of ethnic separatism triggers. Where Arabs and Jews coexist far from the Mideast, tensions resulting from zionism are contagious, because fear is incompatible with reason.
"You seemingly have considerable trouble stopping your own mental murdercycle."
I'm human, just like you. I claim no immunity from anger. But I do understand that there is no solution to be found by going around and around about who initiated any given cycle of aggression. When segregation in the USA was defeated as official policy, the process began with principled non-violent action that replaced oppression and rage with reason, cross-cultural empathy, and cross-cultural solidarity. I believe strongly in the triumph of reason over rage, and I know that it is throuh the conscious advancement of reason that destructive cycles of behavior are halted.
"Cyclicity is not the only enemy of reason."
Militaristic separatism is an insane policy, and the insanity is revealed every time Israel, or any other nation tries to force the issue; the insanity is revealed every time the level of violence is escalated. If you believe in separatism, you're crazy; If you are a segregationist, you've allowed your fears to overcome reason.
GeoffP: "On what basis do you make this assumption?"
On the basis that human beings of every culture have much more in common than separatists, and irrational fears would have us believe. -On the basis of the universally-viral effect of vicious oppression. Victims often take out their rage not on their tormentors, but on the next victims in the chain; on the next viral host of sociopathy.
The profound bitterness of the Holocaust was passed on by zionists, in hard-hearted, dehumanizing oppression against non-Jewish residents of the Levant. Some Palestinian victims of the zionists went on to commit their own atrocities against other creeds- in Lebanon, for example. Every generation makes their collective choices based on reason, or based on blind reactionism. The world's most secure societies are more secure because of the primacy of reason over fear. Reason brings understanding, and understanding brings harmony. Fear destroys reason, and cries for security, but can't deliver it.
That is why the over-arching trend in humanity through history has been the triumph of reason over fear. If it were not so, we would not be having this conversation: If fear and aggression had greater power over us, there would already have been ruthless competitive elimination, and a series of "final solutions" would have already culminated in one single race and culture, or (most likely in the last round of cultural elimination) no survivors at all.
"If [religious irrelevance] is indeed - as you claim - so, then should not the Jews of Israel have similarly kicked out their Arab citizens?"
Oppression and hatred is viral, and becomes a cycle when reason is displaced by fear and hatred- in any culture, in any religion. The aftermath of the Holocaust was explosive- due to an anomolous multiplicity of factors (European and American sentiments of guilt, vulnerabilities in Palestine, surplusses of weaponry in Europe, zionist-separatist aspirations, etc) the 1940s catapulted an Israel into being that was rationally and ethically flawed. That is why Israel remains highly insecure today, no matter what weapons and walls are installed there.
"Yet they don't [kick out other ethnicities], although they do put them under scrutiny."
Israel's insecurity is entirely the result of forced segregation. The Palestinian diaspora is not the result of mere "scrutiny"; it didn't happen by accident.
But the cycle of oppression will be halted by reason. Arab Jews, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Arab Druze, Arab Armenians, other Arab sects, and multiethnic immigrants will all get back to living together in multi-ethnic societies all over the region. As segregationism is dismantled and abolished, tensions will decrease. Obviously, it won't happen overnight. But if humans walk the earth for another thousand years, I expect us to continue becoming more reasonable, and for hacked-out ethnic "Homelands" to become nothing more tangible than bad memories.
"The evidence is against you"
No, multiculturalism was the norm in the Levant before 1948. Multiculturalism is the global and historic trend. When segregationism is put back into the dustbin of Mideast history, a greater equilibrium, and more enduring and prosperous coexistence than ever experienced before will ensue.
"this is not the experience of religious minorities in the islamic world."
It was before the shock of 1948.
"Unless you mean that tensions will decrease because the minorities will live under a climate of repression and fear..."
No, that's not what I mean at all. Mideastern Jews today have become concentrated in a fortress-prison of zionist making, that has triggered a convulsive cycle of separatism, interrupting a larger trend, whereby Jews had been experiencing integration into societies all across the region, just like minorities have been, and continue to integrate in less paranoid societies all over the world.
"[minorities live in fear], whilst the dominant culture enjoys its empowerment."
Such an environment damages everyone involved- oppressor, and oppressed. Segregationism is a regressive, dysfunctional, insecure way to structure a society. The more humanity learns our history, the more we hold certain truths self-evident, and the better our societies function.
"The multiethnic societies you describe belong to the 15th century (and even entirely at the whim of the dominant culture), not the 21st."
Wrong. Arab Jews were a visible part of the cultural tapestry, all across the Mideast before 1948. The "triumph" of zionism was by far the greatest disaster for Mideast multiculturalism in modern times, causing a global cascade of disasters for multiculturalism. Other minorities suffer too, because of the confrontationalism each new convulsion of ethnic separatism triggers. Where Arabs and Jews coexist far from the Mideast, tensions resulting from zionism are contagious, because fear is incompatible with reason.
"You seemingly have considerable trouble stopping your own mental murdercycle."
I'm human, just like you. I claim no immunity from anger. But I do understand that there is no solution to be found by going around and around about who initiated any given cycle of aggression. When segregation in the USA was defeated as official policy, the process began with principled non-violent action that replaced oppression and rage with reason, cross-cultural empathy, and cross-cultural solidarity. I believe strongly in the triumph of reason over rage, and I know that it is throuh the conscious advancement of reason that destructive cycles of behavior are halted.
"Cyclicity is not the only enemy of reason."
Militaristic separatism is an insane policy, and the insanity is revealed every time Israel, or any other nation tries to force the issue; the insanity is revealed every time the level of violence is escalated. If you believe in separatism, you're crazy; If you are a segregationist, you've allowed your fears to overcome reason.
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That's flattering. I seem to be mentally "pregnant" with a book about flying- It's a subject I'm more passionate about. Every time someone says something encouraging to me like that, it's a jolt of motivation. I'll use your jolt get going again. Thanks, Sam.
The ones directly responsible for the formation of the state. Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founders of Hashomer, the Jewish Legion, Irgun, Haganah.
Ironically you tend to focus on the more hawkish Zionists, and not Weizman or Hertzel, though even the leader of the Irgun, a minority right wing group, supported full rights to minorities.
Ironically you tend to focus on the more hawkish Zionists, and not Weizman or Hertzel, though even the leader of the Irgun, a minority right wing group, supported full rights to minorities.
No. If you were reading with comprehension..
With more comprehension than you, it seems. Out of your 1000's of posts reguarding Middle Eastern issues, you have, NOT ONCE, critisized arab crimes, yet you call yourself an impartial debator.
No, I've been an eyewitness to war in the Mideast. I've seen Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, and Arab Jews do horrific things. You obviously don't understand me.
Every time those "horrific things" you describe are done, you condone them and explain them away.
Hatred and oppression are often provoked, but never justified.
Blind rhetoric that escapes the point. Just as Palestinian actions are a reaction, so are Israeli actions, and that includes the 1967 war, the targetted killings, etc...
Israelis get to make policies: It's an occupation, and it's apartheid. Palestinians in the ghettos are politically and economically hobbled by Israel.
Again blind rhetoric. The Palestinians chose the policy of war and genocide in 1948. They chose to kill off 250 peacefull jewish residents in hebron in 1929. Everything has a consequence, and Palestinians are hardly saints, despite your attempts to whitewash their crimes.
Where have I attempted to legitimize a crime?
All the time, when the target is Israeli.
No, you've just misrepresented me in an amateurish way, almost in the same breath as saying "Let's be honest".
I can imagine honesty is quite a challange for some people, but please make the effort.
What specific "Arab crimes" have I whitewashed?
The ethnic cleansing of 800,000 jews, suicide bombings, rocket attacks, the invasion of 1948 which was clearly an intent to genocide, etc..
There is no reason to enforce multiculturalism in a relatively small nation. Some Democracies were meant for it, some not. Should we be enthusiastic about the intrusion of ethnic Chinese into Tibet? Should Jews relish the experience of multicultural Germany? Should they be encouraged by the vicious fighting in Lebanon between ethnic and religious groups? It is reasonable to expect that immigration from surrounding populations would lead to civil war, and they already had one. The Palestinians are like southerners who still fly the Confederate Flag.
Hence I gave you the list of names of those who died along with the circumstances. Easy enough to check up for anyone so inclined.
As I said before, a non governmental rights group uses local witnesses as its sources, and it has been documented many times that militants are described as civilian casualties by local residents, which is understandible.
I see no point in debating societies deliberately maintained under kings and dictators.
Ofcourse not, because they arnt Israeli, and thus exempt from critisism.
By the way, Hamas was legally elected, if Im not mistaken, yet, not once, in your 10,000 posts reguarding the issue, did you critisize an action they have taken.
I've read how his student was victimised, so much for freedom of expression
But none of this negates his perusal of the Haganah documents.
Yes, freedom of expression, when Ilan pappe goes around the world smearing his own university, and his trips are payed for by that same university.
Back to the topic, the student was found plaguerizing and admitted it. His thesis promotes your agenda, despite it being untrue, so in your eyes he is a saint.
Especially since it is supported by others, like Ben Morris and Norman Finkelstein who have also examined the same documents
The link you provided does not speak of the same incident. Ill repeat again, the student was found plaguerizing and admitted it.
As to your second source by Benny moris, in which you claim that Ben Gurion initiated a plan to cleanse the state of its Palestinian inhabitants, your source does not corroberate that. Benny Morris admitted himself, in the article, that plan D was not implemented, only created. Contingency plans exist everyware and even the US has an invasion plan of Canada. There were a few evictions, including Lod and Ramle, plus some border villeges for strategic reasons, but the vast majority of arab population centres were untouched. In haifa, for example, Jewish authorities tried vainly to prevent the arab residents of the town from fleeing.
As I said before, a non governmental rights group uses local witnesses as its sources, and it has been documented many times that militants are described as civilian casualties by local residents, which is understandible.
I see no point in debating societies deliberately maintained under kings and dictators.
Ofcourse not, because they arnt Israeli, and thus exempt from critisism.
By the way, Hamas was legally elected, if Im not mistaken, yet, not once, in your 10,000 posts reguarding the issue, did you critisize an action they have taken.
I've read how his student was victimised, so much for freedom of expression
But none of this negates his perusal of the Haganah documents.
Yes, freedom of expression, when Ilan pappe goes around the world smearing his own university, and his trips are payed for by that same university.
Back to the topic, the student was found plaguerizing and admitted it. His thesis promotes your agenda, despite it being untrue, so in your eyes he is a saint
. Especially since it is supported by others, like Ben Morris and Norman Finkelstein who have also examined the same documents
The link you provided does not speak of the same incident. Ill repeat again, the student was found plaguerizing and admitted it.
As to your second source by Benny moris, in which you claim that Ben Gurion initiated a plan to cleanse the state of its Palestinian inhabitants, your source does not corroberate that. Benny Morris admitted himself, in the article, that plan D was not implemented, only created. Contingency plans exist everyware and even the US has an invasion plan of Canada. There were a few evictions, including Lod and Ramle, plus some border villeges for strategic reasons, but the vast majority of arab population centres were untouched. In haifa, for example, Jewish authorities tried vainly to prevent the arab residents of the town from fleeing.
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I see you continue to evade uncomfortable issues. Ill repost my point, hopefully you wont backtrack into a different subject:
" The hundreds of atrocities done by arab nations are legitemate... Why? Because Israel exists. Ill teach you something: Everything is a consequence of something, and so was the formation of Israel. Using your rhetoric of "consequence", the expelling of 600,000 Palestinians was a "consequence" of the war they initiated against the Jews, and thus a "Just" action..
You cant have it both ways, sam. "
Translation: Dont whitewash every Palestinian action by labeling it a "reaction", because the same can be applied the other way. Terror is not justified, the genocide attempts in 1948 were not justified, and the 1967 siege was allso not justified. If the Palestinians would have chosen not do attempt these actions, they would have had a state long ago.
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