News From Gaza

[hypewaders]

Spock: "zionazi???"

No, zionazimurdercycle. I was trying to describe a cycle of violence in a word. The more chronological and complete "nazizionqaedamurdercycle" doesn't have the same Harleyesque note for me.

------------------​

Surely that had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, right, BR? Did you know there were Jews thriving all over the Mideast right before there was an Israel? Hmmm, kinda makes you stop and think for a second, doesn't it?

GeoffP: "So...Israel is created and it's now ok to expel Jews. Because the conflict has no religious basis."

Not quite: If everyone somehow switched religions, but the same segregationism was forcibly introduced, the results would have been much the same. When the cycle of oppression is finally unwound, Arab Jews, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Arab Druze, Arab Armenians, other Arab sects, and lots of multiethnic immigrants will all get back to living together in multi-ethnic societies all over the region. As segregationism is dismantled and abolished, tensions will decrease. You seemingly have considerable trouble stopping your own mental murdercycle.

GeoffP: "Sure does make you stop and think. Some people even just stop thinking altogether."

That's what the cycle of hatred and oppression always causes. Fear and hatred not only kill people- they kill reason and justice, too.

 

[Vega]

Yep, this what their own people are doing right now...however palestinians seem to be more human to S.A.M than her own kind!...umm interesting!

They are approximately 300 million people who are deemed "untouchable" and comprise the lowest rung of the Hindu caste system. Since the origin of this system 3,000 years ago, the Dalits have lived in bondage to the code of caste. They have been unable to escape their fate and are deprived of even the most basic liberties and privileges, including the freedom to decide where to live, work and worship.

More facts:
http://www.indiatogether.org/society/caste.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/459591.stm

 

[S.A.M.]

This can go on and on, so stop whitewashing Arab crimes simply because it doesn't fit your world view.

Arab crimes were consequent to the formation of Israel

Here is an interesting book you may want to read:

Ghada Karmi's latest book "Married to Another Man" opens with the problem European Zionists faced over a century ago when they first mooted the idea of a Jewish State in Palestine. They found then that there was already a well-established Palestinian society existing in the land they wished to claim as their own. Hence the message sent back to Vienna by the two rabbis who made the discovery: "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man."

It is the essence of "Israel’s dilemma": how to effect the disappearance of the ever-present Palestinians so that a purely Jewish state can exist on Palestinian land? The Zionist program of ethnic cleansing that has been going on since Israel’s creation has not solved the problem. Neither has the living hell of occupation.

Essentially, Dr. Karmi says that Israel should never have been created, but she does not suggest that present-day Israelis must be removed. Instead, she argues that a single state for two peoples offers much more hope for peace than a state based on Jewish exclusivity next to a truncated and utterly unviable proposed Palestinian state under Israel’s vice-like control.

I was surprised to find it echoes many things I have come to realise over the past year. I haven't read the book yet, just reviews, so the details are not known to me. Will get back to you after reading it.

 

[Vega]

160 million people S.A.M!!..still waiting don't hide from this one!!!

 

[Vega]

Start your own thread Vega.

no need just making a comparism between your version of human suffering!

 

[Axes]

B'tselem.[/QUOTE]




Link please?

 

[Vega]

Aren't your own people just as human as the palestinians???

 

[Axes]

You can't have a national movement that discriminates against people who were already living there, for not being Jewish.



Israeli-Arabs get the same private rights that Jews get. Further, they have broad cultural and ethnic rights, plus positive discrimination in public jobs over Jews. I would say that, as a minority, they have more rights than any minority in an arab world, yet I dont see you de-legitemizing Arab national aspirations, hence your hypocricy.






I always wonder, what did the Zionists think when they decided to hold their national movement? What did they think were they going to do with the Palestinians who lived in the place they wanted their Jewish nation?


You can read their writings for a change. They saw them as future citizens with full rights. By the way, there are 51 Muslim countries, which have non-muslim minorities in them, who are discriminated on a much larger scale, yet not a word is uttered by you against them... Hypocricy again?

 

[S.A.M.]

Link please?

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

 

[Axes]

Arab crimes were consequent to the formation of Israel

Typical Sam. The hundreds of atrocities done by arab nations are legitemate... Why? Because Israel exists. Ill teach you something: Everything is a consequence of something, and so was the formation of Israel. Using your rhetoric of "consequence", the expelling of 600,000 Palestinians was a "consequence" of the war they initiated against the Jews, and thus a "Just" action..

You cant have it both ways, sam.

 

[Vega]

S.A.M is still avoiding the question folks!!,..amazing!!!
She really doesn't have a rational answer for it!!!..haha this is great!!

 

[Axes]

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

I cant find the link where it gives specific casualties for the years 2006-2007, and since I've read reports which dont corroberate your casualty figures, they are highly suspect.


As to your book recommendation: Ghada Karmi's works are hardly unbiased, and present the Zionist aspirations as different than they originally were. Early Zionists had no intention of creating a "purely Jewish state", but a Jewish state with minorities having full rights. Further, the author concludes that a 2 state solution is "factually unviable": Such a strong assertion reeks of bias.

 

[S.A.M.]

Israeli-Arabs get the same private rights that Jews get. Further, they have broad cultural and ethnic rights, plus positive discrimination in public jobs over Jews. I would say that, as a minority, they have more rights than any minority in an arab world, yet I dont see you de-legitemizing Arab national aspirations, hence your hypocricy.

4 million Palestinians are not permitted freedom because of their refusal to recognise a Jewsih state rather than a secular one. Another 5-6 million have no right to return.

You can read their writings for a change. They saw them as future citizens with full rights.

Its after reading their writings that I have reached this conclusion.

By the way, there are 51 Muslim countries, which have non-muslim minorities in them, who are discriminated on a much larger scale, yet not a word is uttered by you against them... Hypocricy again?

How many of them are supported with aid to CONTINUE and ENFORCE this discrimination?

 

[S.A.M.]

I cant find the link where it gives specific casualties for the years 2006-2007, and since I've read reports which dont corroberate your casualty figures, they are highly suspect.

I gave you the list of causalties. The names and manner of deaths are given in detail.

Which ones do you suspect are not real?

Here:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20071231.asp

Early Zionists had no intention of creating a "purely Jewish state", but a Jewish state with minorities having full rights. Further, the author concludes that a 2 state solution is "factually unviable"

I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe

 

[Vega]

I gave you the list of causalties. The names and manner of deaths are given in detail.

Which ones do you suspect are not real?

Here:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20071231.asp

You are very good in counting the dead in Gaza! but not back home!,,,are the dead there to controversial to talk about???...come on S.A.M you can't run from the truth!!!

 

[Axes]

4 million Palestinians are not permitted freedom because of their refusal to recognise a Jewsih state rather than a secular one. Another 5-6 million have no right to return.



You are backtracking and escaping your own original claim. You accused Zionists about aspiring to create a state that discriminates against Non-Jews, which is untrue. The Palestinian issue was a result of a long chain of wars, NOT from Zionist policies towards non-Jewish minorities.




Its after reading their writings that I have reached this conclusion.




And Which Zionist thinkers did you read about? Leon Pinsker, Zabotinsky, Hertzel? If you actually took the time to read them, your conclusion would by a little different.




How many of them are supported with aid to CONTINUE and ENFORCE this discrimination?



Most of them, including Egypt, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Sudan. I dont see you saying a word against them, infact all I see is an attempt to whitewash their crimes, because "Muslim crimes are allways understandible", huh sam?

 

[Axes]

I gave you the list of causalties. The names and manner of deaths are given in detail.




You finally gave me the link, after 3 posts, and I tank you for it. The problem with non-governmental organizations such as these, is that they get their information from witnesses on the ground, and not from unaligned research centres, therefore their information is much more skewed.





I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe[/QUOTE]




I took a course under Ilan Pappe, and know him personally as a friend of my parents. Its a wonderfull system in Israel where people can voice opinions against the state and not get Jailed. Too bad its unheard of in the Arab world, yet I will never hear you complain about it, right? Arabs cant be critisized by you.

Back to Ilan Pappe, he is considerd a bit of a clown on campus. His views have gotten more and more extreme since a doctorate student of his was found plagerizing and using false historical documents when trying to prove that a massacre in Lod took place. He saw it as a personal stain upon himself, and is since earning good money going around the world, smearing the name of the university that ruined his name, and the country that houses it.

 

[S.A.M.]

You are backtracking and escaping your own original claim. You accused Zionists about aspiring to create a state that discriminates against Non-Jews, which is untrue. The Palestinian issue was a result of a long chain of wars, NOT from Zionist policies towards non-Jewish minorities.

How many Palestinian Jews among the occupied?

And Which Zionist thinkers did you read about? Leon Pinsker, Zabotinsky, Hertzel? If you actually took the time to read them, your conclusion would by a little different.

The ones directly responsible for the formation of the state. Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founders of Hashomer, the Jewish Legion, Irgun, Haganah.

Most of them, including Egypt, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Sudan. I dont see you saying a word against them, infact all I see is an attempt to whitewash their crimes, because "Muslim crimes are allways understandible", huh sam?

How many Palestines in these countries? How many with controlled access to food and fuel? How many air raids and snipers? How many segregationary walls? How many checkpoints?

 

[hypewaders]

Sorry, I skipped one of your posts, Axes-

Axes: "So the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Jews is Just and Understandible because Israel exists?"

No. If you were reading with comprehension, you would know that I advocate peaceful de-segregation in the Mideast, and everywhere. I don't advocate the segregation or ethnic cleansing of anyone by anyone.

"In hypewaders mind, everything done by Arabs is understandable under the "circumstances", therefore legitemate."

No, I've been an eyewitness to war in the Mideast. I've seen Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, and Arab Jews do horrific things. You obviously don't understand me.

"On the other hand, every Jewish action is "unprovoked"."

Hatred and oppression are often provoked, but never justified.

"Lets be honest here..."

Excellent!

"every crime by one Party in this conflict has a previous crime by another party to attribute to it."

Yes!

"It is not one sided, and Israeli actions were just as much a response to previous Palestinian actions."

Israelis get to make policies: It's an occupation, and it's apartheid. Palestinians in the ghettos are politically and economically hobbled by Israel.

"I could claim, for instance, that:

- Palestinians were evicted due to the Arab intent to destroy the Jewish state, so "legitimate". I just Hypewader'd the crime."

Where have I attempted to legitimize a crime?

"- The Stern gang SHOULD have been created, due to the Arab pogroms of 1920 and 1929 which were totally unprovoked. Ive just "legitimized" the Stern Gang using Hypewader methods."

No, you've just misrepresented me in an amateurish way, almost in the same breath as saying "Let's be honest".

"This can go on and on, so stop whitewashing Arab crimes simply because it doesn't fit your world view."

What specific "Arab crimes" have I whitewashed? Have you ever seen me employ the phrase "Jewish crime"? Think about that, and try and explain wy not.

 

[S.A.M.]

You finally gave me the link, after 3 posts, and I tank you for it. The problem with non-governmental organizations such as these, is that they get their information from witnesses on the ground, and not from unaligned research centres, therefore their information is much more skewed.

Hence I gave you the list of names of those who died along with the circumstances. Easy enough to check up for anyone so inclined.

I took a course under Ilan Pappe, and know him personally as a friend of my parents. Its a wonderfull system in Israel where people can voice opinions against the state and not get Jailed. Too bad its unheard of in the Arab world, yet I will never hear you complain about it, right? Arabs cant be critisized by you.

I see no point in debating societies deliberately maintained under kings and dictators.

Back to Ilan Pappe, he is considerd a bit of a clown on campus. His views have gotten more and more extreme since a doctorate student of his was found plagerizing and using false historical documents when trying to prove that a massacre in Lod took place. He saw it as a personal stain upon himself, and is since earning good money going around the world, smearing the name of the university that ruined his name, and the country that houses it

I've read how his student was victimised, so much for freedom of expression

But none of this negates his perusal of the Haganah documents.



Especially since it is supported by others, like Ben Morris and Norman Finkelstein who have also examined the same documents

“
According to Benny Morris, recently declassified documents in the archives of the IDF reveal that in 1947, Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders concluded that a Jewish state could not come into being in the territory assigned to Jews by the UN without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians.... In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

This resulted in "far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought," including "many cases of rape [that] ended in murder" and executions of Palestinians who were lined up against a wall and shot (in Operation Hiram).
The dismantling of Palestinian society, the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages, and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians were not unavoidable consequences of the war declared on the emerging Jewish state by Arab countries. Rather, as Morris repeatedly confirms, it was a deliberate and planned operation intended to "cleanse" (the term used in the declassified documents) those parts of Palestine assigned to the Jews as a necessary pre-condition for the emergence of a Jewish state.

The incredulous interviewer asks Morris, "Ben-Gurion was a 'transferist'?" Morris replies, "Of course." He adds, "Ben-Gurion was right. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here." Indeed, Morris faults Ben-Gurion for limiting the "cleansing" to the 1948 armistice line. "Even though [Ben-Gurion] understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered." Morris believes that it is only a question of time before Israel will have to complete the job begun in 1947 by "cleansing" the entire West Bank as well.

The interviewer asked Morris whether he was not justifying war crimes. Morris replied that the necessity and nobility of the Jewish people's return to their patrimony justified what the Jewish forces did. "There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing.... The need to establish this [Jewish] state in this place overcame the injustice that was done to the Palestinians by uprooting them."

”
http://www.vopj.org/issues50.htm