They are stealing sickness, disease and death from the future, think of it that way.
New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Luckily, no, I wasn'tI think Michaels's parents spanked him.
Except that's not what is happening. Future generations are going to pay for today's healthcare needs, by NOT having the services returned to them. There will be less services to go around by the time they come to collect - if any at all. Particularly when you stop and think about who is going to by far an away garnish the lion's share of the health services (babyboomers) and who's not going use much, if any, health services but have to pay the lion's share (millenials).
Yes, we ALL want everyone in the world to have healthcare.
No one 'wants' to see any single person go without healthcare.
And the best way to ensure this happens is a true free-market.
As Joe knows full-well, the free-market ensures that limited resources (here: healthcare) are used in the most efficient manner to take care of the most people.
The problem with healthcare isn't that there's not enough 'regulation' or enough 'government' - there's plenty of regulation and more than enough Government. The solution is not more government. The solution is less government and more free-market. Example: the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of students who want to and could competently practice medicine but aren't allowed to because of limited placements into State certification programs. This means the free-market isn't able to provide the goods and services (healthcare professionals) the free-market demands. Thus, like anything artificially made scarce - the price of that service goes up. The Government does this - not the market. The market is working very very hard to correct this imbalance (by sending Americans overseas to get a medical certification). Example #2: People who like to open fMRI services are legally restricted from offering that healthcare service - to keep the price up for those who got in first (and make the most donations to the very same morons in Government that are now going to 'fix' healthcare). Thus, the free-market would like to have fMRI scans every 6 months, but instead you'll more than likely never see the inside of an fMRI. Not only does this make you unhealthier - it puts the breaks on the development of better fMRI meaning the service we do get, isn't as good as it should be. Example #3: The 12 + 8 + 3 years of education to work as a general practitioner. This is absolutely insane. The market doesn't need nor want 23 years of education for someone to sit in a room to due routine examinations and dole out pills. It simply doesn't require that level of education. A better approach would be to allow people who are interested in medicine to begin specializing in this from an earlier age, say 16. And if you think 10 extra years of MCQ examinations makes a better doctor compared with 5 years on-the-job training, you're wrong.
If you think the very same group of people who are purposely causing healthcare to skyrocket in price, who are in the pocket of both the AMA and Big Insurance, are suddenly going to magically grow a brain and create an affordable healthcare system - you're in for a surprise. Take a good look a Public Housing, that's ObamaCare in 25 years.
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Obama Reportedly Knew Millions Wouldn't Get To Keep Their Health Insurance But Promised It Anyway
The Government has a monopoly on force, and like all monopolies - has turned into over-priced, crap-service.
There is no such thing as a free market. All markets need to be regulated or they turn into the very thing you hate, organized corruption.
spidergoat
Actually, it's worse than that. It isn't the old people stealing our government(and thus the "children")blind, it's the industrialist/capitalist class...
"Among companies listed on the S&P 500, almost one in nine paid an effective tax rate of zero percent — or even lower — over the past year, according to an analysis by USA Today.
There are 57 separate companies listed on the index that paid a zero percent rate from the past year. Those companies include both household names like Verizon and News Corp. and lesser-known corporate giants like the data storage manufacturer Seagate (market value $15.9 billion) and Public Storage (market value $29.5 billion). Many of the companies USA Today identified in its analysis as paying negative rates make the list because they lost money, but several were profitable. Previous analyses have shown that the typical corporation pays a lower effective tax rate than most middle-class families, and a far lower one than the statutory corporate tax rate against which business interests disingenuously rail."
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/20...icas-largest-companies-pay-percent-tax-rates/
The ACA actually saves the government over a billion dollars over the next ten years. We either belly up to paying for the poor's insurance, pay their Emergency Room bills(horribly expensive)or we go to single payer. The current health insurance paradigm cost nearly twice what almost all other industrialized nations pay and where their systems cover everyone, ours doesn't. And the insurance companies started kicking sick people off of their insurance(often within days of diagnosis), refused to cover preexisting conditions(some claiming being female made pregnancy one of those), put lifetime limits and yearly limits on policies....all while making OBSCENE profits while actually providing no health care at all(do you go to the insurance company's headquarters to have some surgery?). Insurance companies have their place in business, I guess, but just like we don't have private armies, police or firefighters, healthcare should also be provided through our taxes, at least at the basic level. If you want a Cadillac plan, you should pay a Cadillac price to a private company. As a for instance, we subsidize Sen. Ted Cruz's health care to the tune of $35,000 every year, three times as much as a retired worker gets in Social Security, TOTAL. He gets it through his wife's job at Goldman Sacks(o' money)That's who is doing the stealing. We could completely fund Social Security at present modest levels FOREVER by simply floating the cap on parole taxes going to SS from it's present cutoff of ~$110,000 to whatever level was needed(current levels are good for the next 25 years). We wouldn't have a debt or a deficit if the Capital Gains tax was the same now as when Reagan came into office. It is Republican ideas and actions that have caused almost all the economic disasters of the last thirty years(all politicians are venal, but venal combined with stupid and bigoted has given us the TP(an apt description of their functionality)as they have steadfastly carried out the desires of their masters, the rich. The story of the decline of America will be the story of how the super-rich persuaded enough people to vote against their best interests by appealing to their prejudice that the rich now OWN the government. The rest of us are serfs if we don't wake up.
Grumpy
Actually, it's worse than that. It isn't the old people stealing our government(and thus the "children")blind, it's the industrialist/capitalist class...
"Among companies listed on the S&P 500, almost one in nine paid an effective tax rate of zero percent — or even lower — over the past year, according to an analysis by USA Today.
There are 57 separate companies listed on the index that paid a zero percent rate from the past year. Those companies include both household names like Verizon and News Corp. and lesser-known corporate giants like the data storage manufacturer Seagate (market value $15.9 billion) and Public Storage (market value $29.5 billion). Many of the companies USA Today identified in its analysis as paying negative rates make the list because they lost money, but several were profitable. Previous analyses have shown that the typical corporation pays a lower effective tax rate than most middle-class families, and a far lower one than the statutory corporate tax rate against which business interests disingenuously rail."
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/20...icas-largest-companies-pay-percent-tax-rates/
The ACA actually saves the government over a billion dollars over the next ten years. We either belly up to paying for the poor's insurance, pay their Emergency Room bills(horribly expensive)or we go to single payer. The current health insurance paradigm cost nearly twice what almost all other industrialized nations pay and where their systems cover everyone, ours doesn't. And the insurance companies started kicking sick people off of their insurance(often within days of diagnosis), refused to cover preexisting conditions(some claiming being female made pregnancy one of those), put lifetime limits and yearly limits on policies....all while making OBSCENE profits while actually providing no health care at all(do you go to the insurance company's headquarters to have some surgery?). Insurance companies have their place in business, I guess, but just like we don't have private armies, police or firefighters, healthcare should also be provided through our taxes, at least at the basic level. If you want a Cadillac plan, you should pay a Cadillac price to a private company. As a for instance, we subsidize Sen. Ted Cruz's health care to the tune of $35,000 every year, three times as much as a retired worker gets in Social Security, TOTAL. He gets it through his wife's job at Goldman Sacks(o' money)That's who is doing the stealing. We could completely fund Social Security at present modest levels FOREVER by simply floating the cap on parole taxes going to SS from it's present cutoff of ~$110,000 to whatever level was needed(current levels are good for the next 25 years). We wouldn't have a debt or a deficit if the Capital Gains tax was the same now as when Reagan came into office. It is Republican ideas and actions that have caused almost all the economic disasters of the last thirty years(all politicians are venal, but venal combined with stupid and bigoted has given us the TP(an apt description of their functionality)as they have steadfastly carried out the desires of their masters, the rich. The story of the decline of America will be the story of how the super-rich persuaded enough people to vote against their best interests by appealing to their prejudice that the rich now OWN the government. The rest of us are serfs if we don't wake up.
Grumpy
Government doesn't prevent organized corruption - Government IS organized corruption.
All throughout our childhoods we were taught the virtues of democracy. We were taught to say a pledge of allegiance to the Nation's Flag. We were taught reverence of the Constitution. Of the "Founding Fathers". We were taught to call ourselves by our Citizenship. We believed we lived in the freest Nation on earth. This is all propaganda. Belief in the State is a superstition. In place of Christian we have American. In place Saintly we have Patriotic. In place of Infidel we have Traitor. In place of Clergy we have Congress. In place of the Pope, we have the President. It's literally a mirror image of religion.
A free-market isn't a free-for-all, a free society is still based on Law, Private Property Rights and the Non-Aggression Principle.
The ONLY thing that differentiates the Government from any other group of people is it's legal obligation to initiate force against innocent people. That's it. Government is purposely built around a core of immorality. Which is why you won't find Government alleviating poverty - poverty has only grown since the Government decided to have a "War on Poverty". Of course, it runs counter to the very nature of government. But our Prisons - now here's a success story. We have the largest prison populations per person on the planet. Pollution - yes, more success. Our government is the greatest polluter earth has ever known. War - you couldn't ask for a better killing machine than the US Government. Violating our fourth amendment - yes, it's getting into that business too. Teach a child to read and write? Not to good on that front given some demographics have a lower literacy rate now compared with 1910.
Government doesn't prevent organized corruption - Government IS organized corruption.
Given a little latitude I would actually agree with this Michael. Problem is, this phenomenon appears spontaneously in human society. So, even in your utopian super-libertarian dream world, eventually you would have organized corruption - ergo... *gasp* ... government. What is your solution to this conundrum?
Where does this hatred of your parents and government come from Michael?
Governments are completely 100% necessary, otherwise we would have complete and utter anarchy.
Whether a governemnt is corrupt or not, depends on the diligence and participation of the people in general.
I see a day in the future when we may have a world government and complete International co-oporation.
It is something we will need to facilitate our path to inter-stellar space and beyond.
Firstly, you're confusing Anarchy (the ideal social system) with Barbarism (a despicable social system).
Immanuel Kant named four kinds of government:
A. Law and freedom without force (anarchy).
B. Law and force without freedom (despotism).
C. Force without freedom and law (barbarism).
D. Force with freedom and law (republic).
Let me guess, Christianity is completely 100% necessary (because that's what I was taught to think in church), otherwise everyone would be raping and killing one another. The ONLY thing holding back humanity's evil animal instincts and blood lust is fear of a Sky-Daddy. In short, humans are born in Sin due to Eve eating the magic Apple.
Or I know, The State is completely 100% necessary (because that's what I was taught to think in public school), otherwise everyone would be raping and killing one another. The ONLY thing holding back humanity's evil animal instincts and blood lust is fear of the Public Security Arm of the State. In short, humans are born in Sin due to Eve eating the magic Apple. And you can't change that fact now can you?
It's not surprising you think the way you think.
A one world government will be a hellish nightmare.
If there ever comes a time when a small group of powerful people rule the entire world and have the legal obligation and right in initiate force against innocent humans then you can expect life on earth to be horrible. There will be no privacy rights, no personal freedoms and people will be treated as tax cattle. Perhaps a few humans will escape to space, but, given this one-world government will destroy most of the planet's resoures, I highly doubt it.
It's nice to think that God or The Government can snap it's fingers and *poof* magically prosperity ensures. But this is magic thinking. I'm sorry but Mommy and Daddy worked hard to provide you with goodies as a child. It may have seemed like *magic* when food appeared - but it wasn't. Time to grow up - there is no magic man with platonic ideals that you're going to elect and he's going to make it all better. No. That's not how prosperity occurs. It occurs through small individual trades between individual people. Slowly, through free voluntarism society progresses.
If humans ever dream of inter-stellar space, it'll be peaceful voluntary interaction.
I don't have to have a solution.
Your question is like this asking this question: Without Slavery who will pick the crops and make the clothing? An abolitionist in the 1700s would never have dreamed that the free-market would bring about machines linked together via satellite running on dinosaur juice so that the work of 10,000 men could be done by 10. To suggest such a world, would sound preposterous to a person in the 1700s. All the abolitionist needed to know was the Slavery violated the non-aggression principle, that slavery violated personal property (the body). It didn't matter if it was voted on and legal - once the law violated these axioms, it was immoral and that's ALL the abolitionist needed to know.
As humans move closer to a moral society, we also gain prosperity through free-trade (free interaction). Will we have a 'Utopian' world? Of course not. We'll still have jealousy. We'll still have envy.
While an anarchy is a long ways away, I only suggest now we LIMIT government. We return the freedoms back to the people that were stolen. We eliminated agencies like the NSA. We end the military occupations overseas. We deregulate while at the same time educating people on what and why this must occur - giving the free-market time replace government regulations with free-market solutions, where required. And we MUST end Income Tax and return the power to print money back to the Citizens as well as allow Citizens the freedom to use whichever currency they deem of value in a transaction. Allow the free-market to work, and the solutions will be found WITHOUT resorting to force, to the gun, the club - the jungle.
Your philosophical outlook on the world is quite unrealistic.....
Let me address a couple of points.....
[1] Yep, I was a good Catholic boy, and went to one school from Kindagarten through to Immediate Certificat by the Christian Brothers order, now my political views could be said to be left of center....and agnostic to boot.
Anarchy is Anarchy and that's that, quite an undesirable state of affairs...
Your extreme politics in my opinion, align quite closely with conspiracy theorist nutters, and pseudoscientific ratbags.
All are driven by one "quality" hate for the establishment and mainstream thinking.
A world government will happen one day...maybe 200 years hence or 300 or more, but it will happen.
It will be necessary to take man to the stars.
1) Everyone is agnostic. This says nothing of belief. I'm an agnostic atheist as an example. Other's are agnostic theists. Saying you're agnostic is saying nothing. I'm fairly certain you don't understand what the word agnostic means.
2) Anarchy is Anarchy. A is A. Yes, you've made it to step 1. However, you obviously have no idea what the word Anarchy means and are confusing it with the word Barbarism. Here, I'll post a definition so you can at least understand that much. As for the larger concepts, you obviously have no interest in thinking deeply about them - and so I wouldn't bother doing so.
DEF: Anarchy:
Is derived from the Greek ἄναρχος, anarchos, meaning "without rulers", from the prefix ἀν- (an-, "without") + ἀρχή (archê, "sovereignty, realm, magistracy") + -ισμός (-ismos, from the suffix -ιζειν, -izein "-izing"). Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.
Using the word 'extreme' in front of the word politics. Nice, did the TV teach you that one? We were actually talking about Ethics and the non-aggression principle. Perhaps your mother taught it to you once? You may want to let her know she failed, the lesson was obviously lost on you. Oh, and 'conspiracy' 'nutter' and 'ratbag' fall into the logical fallacy of ad hominem - which is the level of your discourse on the matter. As for pseudo-scientific, you'd first have to understand what scientific means. It's an efficient process used to separate subjective connection from objective reality. Similar to Ethics it's also a Philosophy: National Sciences.
Low quality sophistry. Words like 'mainstream' and 'establishment' are meaningless. What's Progressive today will be Tradition tomorrow.
Finding it immoral to sell the future labor of children is called a conclusion. That you don't like that conclusion is obvious. I mean, that would mean you've been stealing from them your whole life. Why face up to that when you can call someone a ratbag and keep on stealing.
A one world government will never happen. Exactly the opposite.
Take a good look at Public Housing - there's your rocket ship to the "Stars". The government couldn't find it's own arse with both hands if it had one. The future will see governments shrink. That future is going to happen, not in 200 or 300 years, but during your lifetime. I do hope you enjoy it as much as I will.
Good one Joe, nice to see you've finally stooped to your natural level. Understanding what government is and is not has nothing to do with hate. I don't 'hate' the government. I understand it is an immoral institution. Government only distinguishes itself from other forms of human collaborations in it's legal obligation to initiate force against innocent individuals. As can be clearly seen in the "War on Drugs" and the millions of innocent non-violent humans placed in Public rape-cages.
Don't worry Joe, you're in good company - your entire generation has no problem screwing their grandchildren out of a prosperous future to selfishly lavish entitlements and disregard responsibility in an orgy that has left planet earth a polluted waste.
Take a real GOOD long look at the data Joe. It's not that your generation worked harder than the millennials, gen X or Y. If anything, your generation couldn't work 1/2 as hard as I see these kids working now. Many go to school 10-12 hours a day in the hopes of getting a chance to eat a few table scraps that fall off your generations' table. You know what the worse thing is? They believe they're failure due to something they did wrong. They don't understand that your generation sold bonds and bond and more bonds that they are being forced to pay back with lost prosperity. That your generation got rich - at their expense. Where you had cheap and free education, they have $30-80,000 in debt. Where you had manufacturing jobs, they have McDonalds. And the worst of the worst - is when your generation decided to flip your way into prosperity causing massive increases in house prices - leaving these children to rent and never own AND THEN when your house of cards fell in on itself, you went to town and sold them out bailing out your own ineptitude. Yeah, if these kids don't stand up and push as many of you off their back, many of these children will never have children of their own. I'm hoping their instinctive survival to reproduce finds a laser-like focus on the root cause of their problems. To think now you expect them to pay your health care is truly disgusting. Take a look at where all the wealth is Joe. It's certainly not in the pockets of the kids who are going to be forced to start paying health insurance for their babyboomer great-grandparents.
U2′s Bono: Capitalism is only way to end poverty
Paul David Hewson does a lot of work for the poor. He tried government - and finally, after decades, he implicitly understands (perhaps even explicitly) where prosperity really comes from, not from handouts, certainly not from government, it comes from FREE TRADE. Free interaction between two free individuals using sound money within the framework of the law. These are called win-win. Each tiny trade builds up a tiny amount of prosperity within society.
This isn't just true of feeding the poor in Africa - it's also true of feeding the poor in the USA. It's not true of only food, it's also true of machines, electronics and other goods. It's not just true of goods, it's also true of services, services like accounting, training and *gasp* yes, even healthcare. It's even true of 'money' itself.
[video=youtube;PUZFgBqcYt8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUZFgBqcYt8[/video]
Paul David Hewson does a lot of work for the poor. He tried government - and finally, after decades, he implicitly understands (perhaps even explicitly) where prosperity really comes from, not from handouts, certainly not from government, it comes from FREE TRADE. Free interaction between two free individuals using sound money within the framework of the law. These are called win-win. Each tiny trade builds up a tiny amount of prosperity within society.
This isn't just true of feeding the poor in Africa - it's also true of feeding the poor in the USA. It's not true of only food, it's also true of machines, electronics and other goods. It's not just true of goods, it's also true of services, services like accounting, training and *gasp* yes, even healthcare. It's even true of 'money' itself.
[video=youtube;PUZFgBqcYt8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUZFgBqcYt8[/video]
No, just as I said...Your type are destined for the scrap heap.
Dream on Michael, dream on if it gives you that warm inner glow and feeling of contentment, dream on.
We already pay a tax of 2.9% (half directly paid by the employee and half by the employer) and those making over $200k pay an extra .9% all for a program (Medicare) that only covers those over age 65. Now we've got additional ObamaCare taxes on top of that and we still will not achieve universal coverage.
Good one Joe, nice to see you've finally stooped to your natural level. Understanding what government is and is not has nothing to do with hate. I don't 'hate' the government. I understand it is an immoral institution. Government only distinguishes itself from other forms of human collaborations in it's legal obligation to initiate force against innocent individuals. As can be clearly seen in the "War on Drugs" and the millions of innocent non-violent humans placed in Public rape-cages.
Don't worry Joe, you're in good company - your entire generation has no problem screwing their grandchildren out of a prosperous future to selfishly lavish entitlements and disregard responsibility in an orgy that has left planet earth a polluted waste.
Take a real GOOD long look at the data Joe. It's not that your generation worked harder than the millennials, gen X or Y. If anything, your generation couldn't work 1/2 as hard as I see these kids working now. Many go to school 10-12 hours a day in the hopes of getting a chance to eat a few table scraps that fall off your generations' table. You know what the worse thing is? They believe they're failure due to something they did wrong. They don't understand that your generation sold bonds and bond and more bonds that they are being forced to pay back with lost prosperity. That your generation got rich - at their expense. Where you had cheap and free education, they have $30-80,000 in debt. Where you had manufacturing jobs, they have McDonalds. And the worst of the worst - is when your generation decided to flip your way into prosperity causing massive increases in house prices - leaving these children to rent and never own AND THEN when your house of cards fell in on itself, you went to town and sold them out bailing out your own ineptitude. Yeah, if these kids don't stand up and push as many of you off their back, many of these children will never have children of their own. I'm hoping their instinctive survival to reproduce finds a laser-like focus on the root cause of their problems. To think now you expect them to pay your health care is truly disgusting. Take a look at where all the wealth is Joe. It's certainly not in the pockets of the kids who are going to be forced to start paying health insurance for their babyboomer great-grandparents.
No Michael you have a hatred of government and your parents...your elders. You think life was easy for my generation and you complain about going to school 8-12 hours per day...really Michael. I put myself through college while working fulltime and carrying a full load at school. And you want to complain about going to school 8-12 hours per day? You don't know what work is Michael.
Two, as you have been told many times before it should come as a surprise that older people have more wealth as they have had a lifetime to accumulate that wealth. Unless you are a trust fund baby, youth don't have much wealth. They are earning it just as their elders have done. It takes time to earn and accumulate wealth unless someone hands it to you on a silver plate (i.e. winning the lottery or being born into a wealthy family).