New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

[iceaura]

Which is a better society?
Socialized Healthcare (this is what Australia, Europe and the Japanese do).
Fascist Healthcare (this is what we do)
Free-market Healthcare (this is what we used to do).

That's easy: socialized health care hands down. The last time we had anything like a "free market" ( fee for service, no government aid or regulation, is the closest you'll ever get to market based medical care - a genuine free market of course impossible in this field) poor people were dying of abscessed teeth and half the country was segregating its hospitals by race and class, sex and age. And that's pretty much how every supposedly "free market" medical care delivery system operates to this day.

The USA circa 1900. The USA had perfectly fine healthcare and most Americans had affordable access to what was, at that time, the most modern medical treatments.

If you ever read a history book your entire fantasy world is going to fall apart, you know that?

 

[joepistole]

That's easy: socialized health care hands down. The last time we had anything like a "free market" ( fee for service, no government aid or regulation, is the closest you'll ever get to market based medical care - a genuine free market of course impossible in this field) poor people were dying of abscessed teeth and half the country was segregating its hospitals by race and class, sex and age. And that's pretty much how every supposedly "free market" medical care delivery system operates to this day.

If you ever read a history book your entire fantasy world is going to fall apart, you know that?

Well Michael really doesn't care about history, word definitions, or facts. For Michael, it's all about the ideology.

 

[joepistole]

[t one time no one could 'name' a successful European country that didn't have a Monarch. At one time no one could name a successful 'modern' country that allowed women to vote. Or allowed freedom from Religion. And etc...[/quote]

This is where knowledge of history is helpful. I don't suppose you have heard of Athens, Sparta, The Vikings, The Republic of Florence?

As people like you that drag society into the mud, because there can be no progress without change - and that's the LAST thing you want. No one can 'name anything new' until it happens Joe. It's why your 'argument' is an illogical fallacy.

Also, we live in the postmodern world, and have for nearly a century.

Not suprisingly you have that back ads backward. You're the one using the 1900 healthcare model as a standard of excellence. You are the one who wants to deregulate and bring back the robber barons. You are the one who needs to rewrite the dictionary and must eschew empirical evidence in order to cling to and rationalize your ideology.

We have centuries of data that shows your ideological notions are wrong.

 

[Michael]

That's easy: socialized health care hands down. The last time we had anything like a "free market" ( fee for service, no government aid or regulation, is the closest you'll ever get to market based medical care - a genuine free market of course impossible in this field) poor people were dying of abscessed teeth and half the country was segregating its hospitals by race and class, sex and age. And that's pretty much how every supposedly "free market" medical care delivery system operates to this day.

The Economist: A spoonful of monopoly helps the medicine go down

You state you want "Socialized" Healthcare.

OK, I'll give you an example of a patient A and you explain to me how a "socialized' healthcare system would operate.

Patient A: Is your average obese American who refuses to diet, likes to moderately drink and will across his lifetime require numerous cardiovascular surgeries and Type II diabetic treatment.

 

[Michael]

[t one time no one could 'name' a successful European country that didn't have a Monarch. At one time no one could name a successful 'modern' country that allowed women to vote. Or allowed freedom from Religion. And etc...

This is where knowledge of history is helpful. I don't suppose you have heard of Athens, Sparta, The Vikings, The Republic of Florence?

Are you nuts? Sparta was a horrid place to live, they murdered their Slaves on whim, treated them as subhuman (even worse than African slaves were treated by Americans) and were so easily conquered by the Romans that even the Romans felt sad for their pathetic society - barely manageable with inbred elites and their mentally and physically handicapped offspring, that the Romans decided to make up a story of how the Spartans were still the fighting force of hundreds of years ago and then take them along in battle as show-pieces. Well, their aristocrats anyway. Maybe you need to actually READ history and not watch it in a documentary made for TV.

Late Athenian history we see they murdered Socrates and ran Plato and Aristotle out of the city.


A truer reading of history is this: as people are freer, they become more prosperous (by definition). Prosperous people have spoilt children (see: your generation) who then go on to debase the freedoms they were granted, rent-seek the markets by use of the State, and form various oligarchies, ultimately destroying the very freedoms that made their society wealthy (see: Amoorikkka). At this point they become a shallow pathetic society easily led around by the nose into phony wars where they rape and murder innocent women and children (see: Vietnam and Iraq) suck what little fat is off the bone often selling their children into slavery. Thus, their once free prosperous society based on meritocracy, becomes a hyper-regulated shit-hole dominated by the mediocrity who believe superstitious nonsense like prosperity comes from "God" or "Government".

Not suprisingly you have that back ads backward. You're the one using the 1900 healthcare model as a standard of excellence. You are the one who wants to deregulate and bring back the robber barons. You are the one who needs to rewrite the dictionary and must eschew empirical evidence in order to cling to and rationalize your ideology.

We have centuries of data that shows your ideological notions are wrong.

Sorry Joe, you're wrong - the FACT is over 400,000 Americans are killed BY hyper-regulated disease-care that passes itself off as modern medicine. And it's getting worse.



I asked and I'll asked again: Should Americans be legally allowed to leave the USA and go to another country to have unregulated medical procedures performed? Yes or No?

 

[iceaura]

OK, I'll give you an example of a patient A and you explain to me how a "socialized' healthcare system would operate.

Patient A: Is your average obese American who refuses to diet, likes to moderately drink and will across his lifetime require two open heart surgeries and Type II diabetic treatment.

You mean the way Medicare works now, in exactly that situation? Or are you willing to consider the way the top 25 health care systems work on this planet?

You seem to be asking a hypothetical question, when dozens of examples surround you. Do you wish to confine the discussion to hypotheticals only, or would one of those currently operating systems be a reasonable basis for consideration?

 

[Michael]

If you ever read a history book your entire fantasy world is going to fall apart, you know that?

We don't live in 'my fantasy world'. We live in your Progressive Socialistic State. And, 'my' place in it is anything but 'falling apart'. It's very easy to be successful in the current progressive socialistic system. Extremely so. I understand we'll live in your Progressive Socialistic 'utopia' for many generations to come and have planned accordingly for my family. Also, just WHO is it, do you think, that are your Regulators iceaura? The people you elect? If so, you're the one who lives in a fantasy world. Elect whomever you like. O-blah-ma, cigar-in-vagina-man, Hitlary, Junior, Senior, the Hollywood idiot. That isn't going to matter one bit at all. Not now at least.


The best option now is peaceful succession and that isn't happening anytime too soon.

 

[Michael]

You mean the way Medicare works now, in exactly that situation? Or are you willing to consider the way the top 25 health care systems work on this planet?

You seem to be asking a hypothetical question, when dozens of examples surround you. Do you wish to confine the discussion to hypotheticals only, or would one of those currently operating systems be a reasonable basis for consideration?

I'm asking you, using a real world example, Patient A, to explain how you think this person should receive healthcare. I'm assuming at some point a 'real' person is going to use your socialized healthcare. OK then, explain to me how it works.

 

[iceaura]

I'm asking you, using a real world example, Patient A, to explain how you think this person should receive healthcare.

I have no preference, among the dozens of working health care systems on this planet. How about France? He goes to the doc regularly, follows his recommendations, is admitted to the doc's choice of hospital and surgeon etc, pays about half what an American pays now for all this while experiencing fewer delays and better followup care, what is your question?

 

[Michael]

I have no preference, among the dozens of working health care systems on this planet. How about France? He goes to the doc regularly, follows his recommendations, is admitted to the doc's choice of hospital and surgeon etc, pays about half what an American pays now for all this while experiencing fewer delays and better followup care, what is your question?

I really don't care who you pick. Pick France. Just explain to me how Patient A is going to get healthcare treatment in your socialistic healthcare system. Where does he go for treatment? Who sees him? How is that person qualified? Who pays for what? Where is his medicines made? How is that paid for? Etc...

 

[iceaura]

I really don't care who you pick. Pick France. Just explain to me how Patient A is going to get healthcare treatment in your socialistic healthcare system.

I just did. He visits his doctor regularly, at the clinic - you know, where Western medical doctors work most of the time? - and follows that doc 's recommendations for medicine and hospital treatment and so forth. He pays for it as in Medicare or other single payer setups, by having a percentage deducted from his taxable income or added to his taxable purchases, which is then billed by the doc, hospital, etc. The doctors are graduates of Western top equality medical schools, who graduated with little or no debt (that was billed to the single payer also).

If we presume a continuation of the current flat tax structure in America, rather than a progressive one, it costs him about 11% of an income about 2/3 of an American's, or about 8% of his taxable income per year - a little less than Americans pay in taxes alone for medical care and schooling now, and completely replacing whatever they pay in health insurance on top of their taxes.

 

[Michael]

I just did. He visits his doctor regularly, at the clinic - you know, where Western medical doctors work most of the time? - and follows that doc 's recommendations for medicine and hospital treatment and so forth. He pays for it as in Medicare or other single payer setups, by having a percentage deducted from his taxable income or added to his taxable purchases, which is then billed by the doc, hospital, etc. The doctors are graduates of Western top equality medical schools, who graduated with little or no debt (that was billed to the single payer also).

If we presume a continuation of the current flat tax structure in America, rather than a progressive one, it costs him about 11% of an income about 2/3 of an American's, or about 8% of his taxable income per year - a little less than Americans pay in taxes alone for medical care and schooling now, and completely replacing whatever they pay in health insurance on top of their taxes.

OK, so he visits a Clinic.
(1) How is that Clinic paid for? (flat tax yes?)
(2) How are the people in the Clinic paid for? (flat tax yes?)
(3) How does he know the people at this Clinic are competent? (State ran medical school yes?)
(4) Who chooses who works at that Clinic? (State agency?)
(5) Who chooses how many people work at that Clinic? (State agency?)
(6) How is the price of the medical service determined? (State agency?)
(7) How are incompetent medical practitioners found and removed? (State agency?)

(8) If yes, who pays for the State agency? (flat tax?)
(9) Who chooses who works within the State agency? (State agency oversight committee?)
(10) Who elects the oversight committee? (politicians?)

You said the doctors are graduates of medical schools?
(1) Who pays for the medical schools? (flat tax)
(2) Who chooses who gets to go to medical school? (State agency?)
(3) Who chooses the numbers that are admitted to medical school? (State agency?)

You say "top quality" medical schools?
(1) How is that assessment made? (State agency? There obviously isn't a 'top' quality is there - it's all equal quality [good enough for Government work quality in actuality])
(2) Who works at these schools? (State certified doctors?)
(3) How are they paid? (flat tax?)

You state that there's a flat tax.
(1) What if patient A doesn't want to work? (in essence, what do you plan to do with the people who really couldn't give two shits - which, in my experience, can easily suck through a million dollars a person in resources, even though they themselves have never, and never plant to, work - ever).
(2) Who levies the tax? (IRS?)
(3) How is the tax collected? (IRS collection agency?)
(4) What happens to people who refuse to pay the Flat Tax (is there an opt out?) (State police forced? Also, how do you know who hasn't paid, if they paid enough, how much they should pay, what their assets are, ALL of their details - how do you know that iceaura? How much privacy do we have to give up? How many agency are needed? How much control does the State have here - to ensure everyone 'Pays their "Fair" share'?)
(5) Who pays for the police force (another flat tax? Who oversees these police? Another agency? Who hires the police? Who oversees their role in society to ensure the IRS isn't used again - say, political opponents? I mean, now that you've grown the State so FAT off bureaucracy, It itself will need policing - hows that going to be paid for? More 'flat tax' more "Progressive Tax"?)
(6) Are there prisons for those who refuse to pay flat tax (how are your prisons paid for? Who oversees them? Who determines how many people work in them? Who sets their wages? How do you determine if they're fairly used? Let me guess - more State? Another tax? Less privacy? Less freedom?)
(7) Who pays for litigation? I mean, when a Public Doctor is sued for incompetence, negligence, etc... who pays? Does the State also have a legal agency? How is this paid for? (more tax? more agencies? more State?)

Am I to assume there's no role for private (voluntary) health insurance? How about for those who want to use non-State regulated medicine? And non-State regulated private insurance? Is that going to be allowed in your Utopian society iceaura?



Also, here in the real world, I'm wondering: Do you think Americans should have the legal right to leave the USA as a private Citizen, enter another country, and use unregulated healthcare?

 

[Michael]

I'm also wondering, given you just handed total control over your healthcare over to the State - or, I should say, the people who couldn't be bothered to work in the voluntary markets and took a plum-job working in Government as our "Regulators": What are you going to do when these "Regulators" ensure 'people like them' *gasp, maybe even their friends and family* get the good plum-jobs working in highly-paid healthcare industry. Preferably in the "Regulatory" roles?

Also, without any semblance of a free-market, how is it do you think medical students are chosen? You know, how do you think 'the best of the best' are picked by your Regulators/Rulers to be your highly-paid Healthcare Providers?

Let me give you a clue: Private Citizens (who have the money) pay for their children to get privately tutored by medical students who don't mind making an extra dollar, they pass along all the 'tricks of the trade' and 'State exam taking skills' to ensure you're successful. Oh, Private Citizens also take specialized prep-courses to take the State tests. Oh, then there the Private and Public schools who solicit based on the number of students who get into Medical School. And for the millions of students whose parents just up and decided (for them) they're going to medical school - these one's, I've seen it all. Let's see, there's the two students starving themselves to death (it's nice to have control over something at least - usually there's 10 times more who secretly cut or self-harm themselves) given I can clearly see 2 ED this year, I suspect 10 - 20 have some form of self harm. Then there's that 14 year old who attempted suicide a few months ago - well, in this world (your Utopian world) that's pretty common. See, when the State 'regulates' everything (which is to say, when you give total control over your healthcare to a few unelected people who worked the bureaucratic system for their gain) you find all sorts of distortions happen within society. Many that you certainly have no clue about. And many I've probably never guessed. Then there's the vast majority who are really god damn good about taking State tests. But, couldn't give two craps about anything other than making money. "Healthcare" if you've ever worked in a Public Hospital, is the bottom of the priority list. The bottom. Very very bottom. Much like Universities (those elite institutions you're pinning your hopes on training your Public Doctors) - grants and publications are important, education, not so much. I'd say, it'd be the bottom of the list for most academics, certainly relative to research, publications and grants.

Hey, here's something I hear one of your Regulators say last year: "We seem to have a problem with an Asiafication of the Medical Program". What do you think about this statement Iceaura? Do you concur with your Regulator? Is it a problem when Citizens 'look' a certain way? I mean, maybe their eyes are a little too slanty and cheekbones too high? Hair too black, eyes too brown. Given half my family is Asian, I'd say he realized, a few seconds too late, he'd put his foot in it. I made it clear what my stance was. Not that this matters. It's a whim as to what your Regulators will decide to do. They could move left. They could move right. Flip a coin.

The fact is, the State has ruined healthcare - but I don't really blame the State so much. It's rabid dog. Yeah, it bites people for no reason - what else would you expect? No, the State is a symptom. The problem is Amoorikkkan culture itself. But don't worry, soon enough we'll have an outright Aristocracy and just like any other parents little Amooorikkkan's will be treated like the children they mentally are, they will be given their lollipop/low-quality State healthcare in exchange for their freedoms and told what to do and when to do it - and they will.

Sure, healthcare in the USSA will probably be killing off 800,000 to a million a Amooorikkkan's a year. So what? Amooorikkkans will be more than happy knowing it's "Free" ....like the roads, and schools, libraries, and parks and Public Housing slums. You don't have to worry about us having Japanese efficient healthcare. Or German quality healthcare. That isn't going to happen. We're going to have Public Slum housing project healthcare. And we're going to give up what's left of our privacy to get it.

 

[iceaura]

OK, so he visits a Clinic. etc etc etc {bunch of silly questions}

Already answered - however they handle all that stuff in France. Do your own tiresome net searching.

Or Germany. Or Belgium. Or Japan. They all work better than the US medical care setup - and we invented most of what they do.

Or for that matter expand US Medicare to cover the population. Then the answers would be: exactly as is done now with Medicare in the US. That has the disadvantage of being oln the one hand less socialist than the more efficient setups with better outcome stats, and on the other bizarrely denied the benefits of market power to protect capitalist enterprise and thus absurdly expensive, but it would be a big improvement over the current US mess. Any improvement is fine by me - even Romney's little corporate capitalist operation they call Obamacare now. I'm not the Utopian here - I'm just trying to get the foul mass of dead weight bureaucracy and corruption and incompetence and expense and denial of care we suffer from under private capitalist "free market" insurance companies out of the loop. You're the one claiming we have go on the gold standard and destroy the State and put ourselves in the hands of the likes of unregulated insurance company CEOs in order to maybe get the medical care any bum in a park in Paris gets delivered to him in a van - at half the cost.

First rule of successful enterprise - go with what works. Which is not your pie-eyed romantic notions of "free market", based on myths of the past and an inability to learn from experience.

Let me give you a clue: Private Citizens (who have the money) pay for their children to get privately tutored by medical students who don't mind making an extra dollar, they pass along all the 'tricks of the trade' and 'State exam taking skills' to ensure you're successful. Oh, Private Citizens also take specialized prep-courses to take the State tests. Oh, then there the Private and Public schools who solicit based on the number of students who get into Medical School. And for the millions of students whose parents just up and decided (for them) they're going to medical school - these one's, I've seen it all

And yet you still argue for more of that "free market" influence.

 

[Michael]

Already answered - however they handle all that stuff in France. Do your own tiresome net searching.

Or Germany. Or Belgium. Or Japan. They all work better than the US medical care setup - and we invented most of what they do.

Or for that matter expand US Medicare to cover the population. Then the answers would be: exactly as is done now with Medicare in the US. That has the disadvantage of being oln the one hand less socialist than the more efficient setups with better outcome stats, and on the other bizarrely denied the benefits of market power to protect capitalist enterprise and thus absurdly expensive, but it would be a big improvement over the current US mess. Any improvement is fine by me - even Romney's little corporate capitalist operation they call Obamacare now. I'm not the Utopian here - I'm just trying to get the foul mass of dead weight bureaucracy and corruption and incompetence and expense and denial of care we suffer from under private capitalist "free market" insurance companies out of the loop. You're the one claiming we have go on the gold standard and destroy the State and put ourselves in the hands of the likes of unregulated insurance company CEOs in order to maybe get the medical care any bum in a park in Paris gets delivered to him in a van - at half the cost.

First rule of successful enterprise - go with what works. Which is not your pie-eyed romantic notions of "free market", based on myths of the past and an inability to learn from experience.

And yet you still argue for more of that "free market" influence.

(1) Free markets work
(2) You think France is the model? (a) Americans are not French, squish two Frenchmen together and you'll get an Murican thigh. (b) their economy is in shambles (c) you like it so much - move there.
(3) We are not Japan (which happens to have the most doctors per person in the world - and I've been to plenty of PRIVATE Japanese hospitals, you're not replicating that in the USA). Squish 4 Japanese and you might get an Murican kancle. And, Japanese are actually competent and actually care - about their "Japanese" society. It's something that comes with being monocultureal. As an example, most Japanese would rather watch their economy go into the gutter than see the immigration needed to maintain the economy at the level it was at in the early 80s. It's a 'sacrifice' they're MORE than happy to make. Now, Australians OTOH are more than happy to see 50-80% immigration, even if it totally wipes out whatever was 'Aussie" culture - if it means they get the goodies they were promised. Two TOTALLY different cultures.
(4) We are not Germany - and guess what, it seems 'multiculturalism' isn't working there.

You like EU so much? Move there. Oh, but you're not allowed to live there or in AU, primary because you'll be seen as a 'taker'. I know a Canadian woman who lived in AU for 10 years who was rejected PR and had to leave because she was silly enough to write down the breast cancer she had as a late teen. FULL REJECTION with NO admittance for 10 years (she was deemed a 'risk'). Never mind her husband was a full Professor at a top University and world renowned researcher. Nope. Nanny State said out, and now they live in Florida. So, you won't be moving to AU either.


(6) I'll come back to your post for a summery and rebuttal.


(7)Do you think Americans should have the legal right to leave the USA as a private Citizen, enter another country, and use unregulated healthcare?

So? Do we have that FREEDOM? Yes or No?

 

[Michael]

Or for that matter expand US Medicare to cover the population. Then the answers would be: exactly as is done now with Medicare in the US. That has the disadvantage of being oln the one hand less socialist than the more efficient setups with better outcome stats, and on the other bizarrely denied the benefits of market power to protect capitalist enterprise and thus absurdly expensive, but it would be a big improvement over the current US mess. Any improvement is fine by me - even Romney's little corporate capitalist operation they call Obamacare now. I'm not the Utopian here - I'm just trying to get the foul mass of dead weight bureaucracy and corruption and incompetence and expense and denial of care we suffer from under private capitalist "free market" insurance companies out of the loop. You're the one claiming we have go on the gold standard and destroy the State and put ourselves in the hands of the likes of unregulated insurance company CEOs in order to maybe get the medical care any bum in a park in Paris gets delivered to him in a van - at half the cost.

You don't seem to understand what the "Free" in free-markets means. You also don't seem to get that a "Representative" republic should, when functioning to enact the 'will of the majority', align with and facilitate those FREE markets.

I do agree with you on one thing, Fascistic DiseaseCare that passes itself off as Healthcare in the U.S.S.A. is total shit and is killing 480,000 Americans each year. The solution is MORE freedom, not less. MORE.

 

[iceaura]

(1) Free markets work

How would you know? You're the one claiming they don't exist anywhere.

I'm the one claiming that actual existing and real world markets can and do work, , if you can set them up. I think Medicare, for example, should be using market mechanisms to lower its cost of drugs - a market should be set up for drug manufacture and supply. But on an industrial scale they are difficult and sophisticated, and require competent government regulation. Unregulated corporate capitalism will destroy them, as Adam Smith showed and Karl Marx elaborated more than a century ago, and dozens of researchers and theoreticians have further established since. That's established in theory, and in fact - with dozens of examples from all stages off the Industrial Revolution.

You like EU so much? Move there

Are you claiming that America is incapable of setting up a health care system that functions at a First World level, and must live with substandard medical care delivery at exorbitant prices, because of its virtues and superiorities as a country?

(7)Do you think Americans should have the legal right to leave the USA as a private Citizen, enter another country, and use unregulated healthcare?

Sure. They do. We just shipped a couple of them home from one of the many African countries in which health care is almost completely unregulated, but that was because they wished to be treated for their African disease Ebola in a modern hospital with competent doctors and adequate resources. They had a perfect legal right to stay.

So? Do we have that FREEDOM? Yes or No?

Yes.

 

[Michael]

How would you know? You're the one claiming they don't exist anywhere.

Actually, you are right, no one can know. They may work for a time, stop working, start working again. Work in some aspects and not in others. Etc...

Which is why I maintain the moral argument. Ethically, employing force against innocent people is immoral. I don't care if the people have a blue suite with a shinny badge that says police, and the innocent people are poor blacks. It's immoral. It was this week, it was last year, it was 200 years ago, it was 2000 years ago. It doesn't matter if the people are wearing a shinny badge. It doesn't matter if it's legal. It doesn't matter if the innocent have black skin, white skin, no skin.

It's immoral by definition.

The State is a geopolitical location - on Earth. It's Government is groups of humans. Those groups of humans ONLY delineate themselves from other groups of humans in their ability to legally act immorally. That is to say: they can initiate force against innocent groups of people. Your suggestion that we need Public / State / Government healthcare is to say we are so barbaric, so small minded, so pathetic that we so-called "FREE" people cannot manage to provide a service we 'supposedly' all want (given we purportedly live in a representative republic that expresses the will of the people) but cannot seem to provide this service without resorting to violence against innocent people.

I know you don't get it, but YOU are the problem. You are the one living in a fantasy land. A fairytale of well intention. As if words magically create reality. No, they don't. People do. Free people interacting with one another voluntarily using sound money (or an agreeable means of transaction) with law and private property (that is to say they own their bodies) create value, including healthcare.

The US Government was LIMITED for a reason. The first 10 Amendments are about protecting us from It.


As for your Socialistic Healthcare system:
I'll provide a summary. Please let me know if this is accurate.

To provide Public Healthcare you're going to NEED:
(a) A Nation State
- State Government
- State Income Tax agency
- State Central Bank
- State fiat currency
- State police force (to enforce tax and healthcare regulations)
- State prisons to house offenders
- State regulated provider certification
- State Hospitals and Clincs
- State Medical School
- State Universities (to attend medical school)
- State School Certifications (to attend University)
- State economic modeling agencies to determine State set price (across all State institutions)
- State Citizenship (complete with passports as you must ensure non-Citizens don't 'take' from the Public trough)
(b) State Citizens
- must be conferred at birth
- inherits any State debt obligations at birth
- must be forced to pay State income tax
- must be forced to lose some personal privacy (example: must report to State on actions that result in trade that involves property)
- must be forced to lose ownership of body and its actions (example: when the Nation State Citizen performs labor, a portion [determined by the State] is owned by the Nation State, use of drugs by the Nation State's Citizens are highly regulated by the State such as those that may cause positive or negative health changes and/or any deemed social problems that may impact on the health and State deemed well being of Citizens [drugs can not be consumed by the Nation State's Citizens without approval of a State licensed Citizen], the Nation State Citizen can not engage in voluntary healthcare trade without State approval and doing so will result in loss of liberty, etc....)


In this system a State schooled, State certified, State regulated Citizen is allowed to, by license of the State, engage in highly State regulated healthcare. That is to say: the Nation State Citizen may buy or sell highly regulated healthcare produces and services within a limited scope as determined by the State's licencing agencies.

Thus, when Citizen Doctor (A) performs healthcare service on a Citizen Patient (B) the above necessary stipulations were in place at the time when this healthcare transaction took place.


Does this somewhat sum up what is required to run your Socialized Public Medicine?

 

[Michael]

Do you think Americans should have the legal right to leave the USA as a private Citizen, enter another country, and use unregulated healthcare?

So? Do we have that FREEDOM? Yes or No?

Sure. They do. We just shipped a couple of them home from one of the many African countries in which health care is almost completely unregulated, but that was because they wished to be treated for their African disease Ebola in a modern hospital with competent doctors and adequate resources. They had a perfect legal right to stay.
Yes.

How about here inside the Nation State? Are so-called "Free" Citizens inside the State allowed to legally consume and provide 100% totally unregulated healthcare - once they cross the magic State line?

 

[Michael]

Are you claiming that America is incapable of setting up a health care system that functions at a First World level, and must live with substandard medical care delivery at exorbitant prices, because of its virtues and superiorities as a country?

"First World" will need to be defined.

1) We are not Germans and we are not Japanese - so no, we CAN NOT have a healthcare identical to their healthcare system. It's not possible. Physically, it's not possible. Can re model their system? Sure, yes, we can. It won't work like theirs - it'll work like how it will work for us. Which, IMO, will be akin to something like Greece. Or, like our other Public institutions, like our Government Schools that crank out functional illiterates. That number of 480,000 - that f*ckers going up. One way or another.

2) We actually can have high standard medicalcare and cheap prices. But first we have to eliminate the Federal Reserve and income tax. Then Americans will have go to work. Through competition for services - we'll get fantastic healthcare. This isn't going to happen. Nope. We're going to go route #3

#3) Fascism.