New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

[Tiassa]

Notes on Transitions

This is false, I just received notification that my "out of pocket" more than doubled (from 3000 to 6350).
All the available plans (11 in total) more than doubled the "out of pocket" amount. I can scan the letter I just received. So, people are actually getting (a lot) less insurance for the same amount of money.

• • •​

My insurance is not a junk insurance, quite the opposite , is is a "gold" standard. I suggest that you stop posting if you are ignorant on the subject.

I recognize that many people are uncomfortable releasing "personal" details like the name of your insurance provider, the policy specs, and company's rationale for the changes or even what state rules actually govern your policy, but I also find this form of political trolling—whether from Tach at Sciforums or Hannity at FOX News—rather quite discouraging; it is as if these objectors are trying to conceal as much information as possible.

It's kind of like sitting in a room with four registered sex offenders and the district attorney, and concluding beyond all doubt that the DA must be the one who raped the kid simply because he's a government agent, and the government is always to blame.

To wit, the following letter arrived in September, from my health carrier, Assurant Health:

[front]
Consider your health insurance options for 2014

You keep hearing about the health care reform law, and you're probably wondering if there's anything you should be doing. We're writing to make sure you know:

• There's nothing you need to do at this time, because your plan meets the current requirements of the health care law

• We'll update your plan as required on April 1, 2014

• Soon, you'll have other 2014 health insurance options to consider​

Your plan meets the current requirements
You can keep your plan as is for now. It includes all the current requirements of health care law, such as unlimited lifetime benefits and 100% payment of cer5tain preventative services.

Plan changes are coming
We'll issue you an updated plan on April 1, 2014, the date your plan is required to have what the health care reform law calls essential health benefits, which include maternity, mental health, and pediatric dental vision care.

Continued​

[Right-column notes: Check Mark: What to do: You don't need to do anything at this time; Arrow: Visit [website] or healthcare.gov; Question Mark: [contact information for company]]

† † †​

[back]
You'll have options
We'll send you all the details on the new plan in advance and you'll have the following options available—with no underwriting.

• Taking the plan we send. (We'll move you automatically—you won't need to do anything.)
• Selecting any of the other plans we offer to individuals in your state.​

If you think you might want the new benef9its sooner, you can have them as early as January 1, 2014. Open enrollment for new 2014 plans runs from October 1, 2013, until March 31, 2014. You'll be able to buy 2014 plans—with no underwriting—available through:

• Your insurance agent, who can help you find the plan that's right for you
• The Assurant Health website [website]
• Your state's online health insurance marketplace — you can find it by going to healthcare.gov

◦ If you buy a plan on the marketplace, you might qualify for a subsidy, known as a tax credit, which allows you to pay less for the plan.​

Let us continue to guide you
We're here to guide you through health care reform, helping you understand your options so you feel you have the health insurance plan that's right for you. If you have any questions, or if we can help you in any way, please don't hesitate to contact us.

Thank you for the trust you've placed in us. We truly appreciate your business and look forward to continuing to serve your health insurance needs.

[Brand and Underwriting Information statement]​

To me that's pretty straightforward, but I'm also reading through the marketing pretense, which they constructed very well.

But what is anyone else's assessment?

 

[Tach]

I recognize that many people are uncomfortable releasing "personal" details like the name of your insurance provider, the policy specs, and company's rationale for the changes or even what state rules actually govern your policy, but I also find this form of political trolling—whether from Tach at Sciforums or Hannity at FOX News—rather quite discouraging; it is as if these objectors are trying to conceal as much information as possible.

I am not concealing anything, I offered to scan the letter and post it, including all the "out of pocket increases". I also posted my provider, KPC HMO. So, I expect you to retract your lies you just posted and to apologize.

 

[joepistole]

Why do you persist in your delusions? The insurance I have is KPC HMO, ZERO deductible , 3000$ max out of pocket (until Dec 31 2013, 6350 thereafter, courtesy of obamacare), 200$ copay for emergency care, 250 copay for inpatient hospital, you can find it on the internet.
I have received no cancellation notice because my insurance is COMPLIANT.

LOL, if that is so, then why did accuse me of making a false statement when I proved Obama did not lie about people being able to keep their health insurance? You offered your experience as proof. But since, according to your most recent claim, you are keeping your health insurance; your anecdotal proof is no proof at all.

Obama never said insurance policies would remain frozen or healthcare costs would remain frozen under Obamacare. Obama never said health insurers couldn’t change their health insurance policies. Obamacare didn’t freeze all health insurance policies into perpetuity. Spiraling healthcare costs didn’t begin with Obamacare. The US has been experiencing healthcare costs which have been growing at multiples of the growth in income for decades. So what you are doing here is moving the goal post in order to falsely blame Obama for something he didn't do. Unfortunately for you and those like you, you cannot blame Obamacare for your rising healthcare costs. By the way, for the first time in many decades the growth in healthcare costs has begun to moderate with the implementation of Obamacare…look it up. Obamacare regulates health insurance like it regulates utilities, it caps their profitability and requires certain minimum standards.

Further, Obamacare subsidizes health insurance for some folks. The prices quoted by insurance companies does not include that subsidy and your post failed to address the federal subsidy which effectively lowers the premium for consumers like you.

 

[Tach]

LOL, if that is so, then why did accuse me of making a false statement when I proved Obama did not lie about people being able to keep their health insurance? You offered your experience as proof. But since, according to your most recent claim, you are keeping your health insurance; your anecdotal proof is no proof at all.

I was simply pointing out a DIFFERENT aspect, the FACT that "out of pocket expenses" have more than doubled, thus proving your statement:

Most, if not all, of these people are getting more health insurance for less money.

to be false.

Obama never said insurance policies would remain frozen or healthcare costs would remain frozen under Obamacare. Obama never said health insurers couldn’t change their health insurance policies. Obamacare didn’t freeze all health insurance policies into perpetuity. Spiraling healthcare costs didn’t begin with Obamacare.

Why are you so defensive? I have not attacked Obama, I simply pointed out what happened as a consequence of obamacare <shrug>

 

[Tiassa]

Thank You

I am not concealing anything, I offered to scan the letter and post it, including all the "out of pocket increases". I also posted my provider, KPC HMO. So, I expect you to retract your lies you just posted and to apologize.

I won't retract anything, since it's simply a matter of overlap. But, yes, thank you for finally getting around to providing some basic information.

Meanwhile, demonstrate your "courtesy of obamacare" charge. That's what everyone's after, and that's what you're refusing to explain.

The $6,350 sounds like a company choice, not an Obamacare mandate.

Of course, anything is possible, so if you're going to blame Obamacare, I'm quite certain you can demonstrate the policy pathway.

And it should be pretty simple; $6,350 is an out of pocket cap, so what explains your provider's decision to automatically raise your to that cap?

It's not courtesy of Obamacare if they did it themselves.

And that's the underlying thing; this is still the private sector. You can't blame government for extraneous decisions made by the private sector.

This is what we need to know. The Obamacare horror stories are all reducing to glitches, some ugly, and hyperbole, virtually all ugly.

 

[Tach]

The $6,350 sounds like a company choice, not an Obamacare mandate.

False, all carriers (KPC, UHC, Blue Shield. UHP, Blue Cross) more than doubled their "out of pocket". All increases happen effective Jan 1 2014. It is not a "mandate", it is a consequence.

 

[joepistole]

I was simply pointing out a DIFFERENT aspect, the FACT that "out of pocket expenses" have more than doubled, thus proving your statement:

to be false.

Are you really that screwed up? First you imply you are one of those people. Then you claim you are not. And now you claim you are.

Why are you so defensive? I have not attacked Obama, I simply pointed out what happened as a consequence of obamacare <shrug>

LOL, you think that is defensive...really...or are you engaging in some psychological projection again?

No you have not pointed out a single consequence of Obamacare. You have made inconsistent claims. You have made false claims. You have made illogical and unsubstantiated claims. But you have not pointed out a single consequence of Obamacare. You cannot prove in anyway that the changes you have railed about in your personal insurance policy were in anyway related to Obamacare - one of them minor details again.

 

[Tiassa]

Then Get On With It ... Please

False, all carriers (KPC, UHC, Blue Shield. UHP, Blue Cross) more than doubled their "out of pocket". All increases happen effective Jan 1 2014. It is not a "mandate", it is a consequence.

As I said, I'm quite certain you can demonstrate the policy pathway resulting in this consequence.

We would very much appreciate it if you would stop dancing around the question and get on with presenting the actual analysis. Especially since you've already completed it.

 

[Tach]

Are you really that screwed up? First you imply you are one of those people. Then you claim you are not. And now you claim you are.

What kind of "those people"?

You have made inconsistent claims.

Name one.

You have made false claims.

Name one.

You have made illogical and unsubstantiated claims.

Name one.

 

[joepistole]

What kind of "those people"?

Name one.

Name one.

Name one.

LOL, really? Are you really that dense? Go back and read. It does a mind good.

 

[Tach]

As I said, I'm quite certain you can demonstrate the policy pathway resulting in this consequence.

We would very much appreciate it if you would stop dancing around the question and get on with presenting the actual analysis. Especially since you've already completed it.

The out of pocket increases as listed:

1. UHC from 3000 to 6000
2. KPC HMO from 3000 to 6350
3. Blue Shield from 3000 to 6000
4. UHC-500 from 6350 to 12700
5. UHC-1500 from 6350 to 12700
6. UHC-3000 from 6350 to 12700
7. CareLink-250PPO from 3000 to 6000
8. CareLink-500PPO from 5000 to 10000
9. CareLink-1500HTP from 6350 to 12700
10. THP-500PPO from 5000 to 10000
11. UHP-250 from 3000 to 6000
12. UHP HMO from 3000 to 600
13. UHC PPO100 from 2500 to 7500 (Hawaii!)
14. KPC HMO from 2000 to 6000 (Hawaii!)
15. BC HMO from 2500 to 7500 (Hawaii, again!)

 

[Tiassa]

¿Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

So, are you looking at a PPACA pathway, diverse state regulatory pathways, or corporate decision pathways?

 

[Tach]

So, are you looking at a PPACA pathway, diverse state regulatory pathways, or corporate decision pathways?

As explained in my first post, I am looking at the letter received from my insurer. These are FACTS, so what difference does it make what search path I am using. Deal with the facts.

 

[joepistole]

As explained in my first post, I am looking at the letter received from my insurer. These are FACTS, so what difference does it make what search path I am using. Deal with the facts.

Yes let's deal with the facts. The facts are you claim to have a health insurance policy that is Obamacare compliant. Therefore, it is not being terminated because it is not Obamacare compliant. The facts are you claim to have a letter from your health insurer indicating that your insurer is changing its health insurance plans in 2014. You claim that next year your healthcare insurance will cost more and you will have less coverage if you stay with your current healthcare insurance company. The facts are you attribute those changes to Obamcare but you offer no proof of that claim? The facts are you blame Obamacare for those changes made by your health insurer but you have no evidence that Obamacare is in anyway responsible for those changes. But hey what the heck, you blame Obama and Obamacare anyway. Rush Limbaugh and Fox News say so, so it must be true.

Another case of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[Tach]

Yes let's deal with the facts. The facts are you claim to have a health insurance policy that is Obamacare compliant. Therefore, it is not being terminated because it is not Obamacare compliant. The facts are you claim to have a letter from your health insurer indicating that your insurer is changing its health insurance plans in 2014.

All FACTS.

You claim that next year your healthcare insurance will cost more

FALSE.

and you will have less coverage if you stay with your current healthcare insurance company.

FACT.

The facts are you attribute those changes to Obamcare but you offer no proof of that claim?

The changes occur for no less than 15 insurers starting Jan 1 2014.

Rush Limbaugh and Fox News say so, so it must be true.

Nothing to do with either of them. <shrug>

 

[joepistole]

All FACTS.
FALSE

Thanks for the validations.

Consumer goods companies love you. When they reduce the amount of product they sell you and keep the price the same, you will not recognize that as a price increase.

FACT.
The changes occur for no less than 15 insurers starting Jan 1 2014.

Assuming what you say is true, it still doesn’t follow that Obamacare is in any way responsible. As has been pointed out to you insurers are free to price their product as they see fit. However, they must offer minimum Coverage. If insurers want to offer lower deductibles and lower annual caps, they are free to do so. As I told you I have a $250 deductible and a $1000 annual cap. I have seen insurers in my area offer zero deductible plans next year.

As previously pointed out to you by Tiassa and myself you are using a false cause argument (i.e. post hoc ergo propter hoc) here. There is nothing in Obamacare that prevents insurers from offering more that the minimum coverage.

Nothing to do with either of them. <shrug>

LOL, yeah that is what they all say.

 

[Randwolf]

Super smart Tach's story sounds remarkably reminiscent of this:

If Donna had done nothing, she would have ended up spending about $1,000 more a month for insurance than she will now that she went to the marketplace, picked the best plan for her family and accessed tax credits at the heart of the health care reform law.

"The info that we were sent by LifeWise was totally bogus. Why the heck did they try to screw us?" Donna said. "People who are afraid of the ACA should be much more afraid of the insurance companies who will exploit their fear and end up overcharging them."

Donna is not alone.

Across the country, insurance companies have sent misleading letters to consumers, trying to lock them into the companies' own, sometimes more expensive health insurance plans rather than let them shop for insurance and tax credits on the Obamacare marketplaces -- which could lead to people like Donna spending thousands more for insurance than the law intended. In some cases, mentions of the marketplace in those letters are relegated to a mere footnote, which can be easily overlooked.

The extreme lengths to which some insurance companies are going to hold on to existing customers at higher price, as the Affordable Care Act fundamentally re-orders the individual insurance market, has caught the attention of state insurance regulators.​

Couldn't possibly be the profit motivated private insurance carriers misleading you, could it Tach? Or maybe the are not "misleading" you, maybe they are simply raising your premiums / out of pocket deductibles because, well, you know, because they can? Is that a possible scenario? Or does it have to be caused by Obamacare? Think, man...

 

[wegs]

Up until now, it seems sadly fascinating that many consumers of health insurance haven't bothered to review, let alone understand, their health insurance policy language.

 

[Tach]

Couldn't possibly be the profit motivated private insurance carriers misleading you, could it Tach? Or maybe the are not "misleading" you, maybe they are simply raising your premiums / out of pocket deductibles because, well, you know, because they can? Is that a possible scenario? Or does it have to be caused by Obamacare? Think, man...

They can because obamacare facilitates it. Until obamacare they DIDN'T. Once obamacare was put in place, they DID. Some doubled it, some even tripled it. All of them increased it. Have you looked at your plan, smartypants Randwolf?

 

[Randwolf]

They can because obamacare facilitates it. Until obamacare they DIDN'T. Once obamacare was put in place, they DID. Some doubled it, some even tripled it. All of them increased it. Have you looked at your plan, smartypants Randwolf?

Oh, of course... Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Since Obamacare went into effect prior to your insurance company changing their terms, it must therefore be caused by said Obamacare going into effect, right?

BTW, my policy has not changed at all, in any particular, for the next calendar year. I just received my addendum to my previous addendum (ad nauseum) and I see no changes in my premiums or deductibles. Thank you for your concern though...