Near-death and religion

[Watcher]

One of the realities is that until you have the misfortune of approaching (your own) death, you are never sure how your outlook on religion or philosophy may change. The point is that it is easy to toss out introspections from the comfort of a well-functioning body, in the comfort of a home that at LEAST includes electricity, and a computer!

I have been close to physical death twice in my life, and each time those events changed my viewpoint significantly and accelerated my desire to solve the mystery of birth and death and conciousness. They also made me more accepting of the ways that other people deal with the ultimate mystery of birth-death, as well as the joys and suffering of everyday life.

My point is that I am hoping that those who are fortunate enough to have been insulated from this sort of ultimate trauma realize that their belief-systems may very well be shaken by a near-death experience. To me it is arrogant (and a little illogical) to preach as if you are absolutely certain about anything, considering that one day you will surely face death. Whether you think that Heaven or Nirvana or Satori or unconciouness or another cycle of birth-death lies beyond that singularity, I think we have to accept that we don't really know how we will deal with the final reality.

I suppose from a psychological point of view what we are discussing here are the lasting effects of trauma, the most extreme version being those afflicted with PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). Seems to me that our belief system and psychological makeup are the sum total of all our life-traumas, big or little. So it is not surprising that a near-death trauma would have the potential to change our perception-frame.

 

[Lawdog]

I know that my belief systems will not be shaken
by traumatic events, provided I keep praying.
The way in which I veiw the importance or unimportance
of things out of habit, that may change.
DOGMA however is fixed, and even God cant
go against the Truth.

 

[scorpius]

One of the realities is that until you have the misfortune of approaching (your own) death, you are never sure how your outlook on religion or philosophy may change.

living and relying on logic all my life I dont imagine myself sudenly becoming religious "just in case" for the simple reason theres too many gods to choose from,
www.godchecker.com

which means they are all figments of peoples imaginations.

and even if there was only One who controls all,
If there realy is God whos righteous he/she/it would most likely apreciate me relying on logic and reason in life rather than live on faith and grovel like a wuss before some imaginary sky bully which the xian one is described to be like.

if god created all than I guess he made me atheist

 

[Watcher]

living and relying on logic all my life I dont imagine myself sudenly becoming religious

My point exactly... "you don't imagine" (or can't imagine) what your response might be. I'm not suggesting that you will suddenly convert, I'm suggesting that major traumas are often the turning point for new directions in the way you perceive the world.

You are also assuming that your "logic" will always remain unchanged which is definitely NOT a foregone conclusion! There are lot of things that can happen to your brain which can easily modify your logic/rationalism (mental illness, substance use/abuse, disease, physical injury, psychological trauma).

 

[Joeman]

You are also assuming that your "logic" will always remain unchanged which is definitely NOT a foregone conclusion!

I don't think my logic will change no matter what happens.

1 + 1 will always equal 2.

A thing cannot be both A and not A at the same time.

A spherical cube would never exist no matter what universe you are in.

 

[audible]

there is no such thing as near death experiences, they are just dreams, halucinations.
there is no evidence that under laboratory conditions, cant be debunked.
but if you feel you can produce some feel free, you could earn a million dollers.
at james randi's site. http://www.randi.org/

joeman: if you had an accident, say a head trauma. ("you/your" are in the general term)
it might change then, it could change your whole persona.
if we stay as we are, then I absolutely agree with you.

 

[Silas]

there is no such thing as near death experiences

I think Watcher would beg to differ. He claims to have been near death on two occasions and that this changed his outlook, which I've no doubt it has! No-one was talking about the traditional "near-death experience".

I know that my belief systems will not be shaken
by traumatic events, provided I keep praying.

Utter hubris, and precisely what Watcher was talking about!! You can't know that your belief system would not be shaken by traumatic events until you experience traumatic events. As an atheist I have to be open to the idea that it may happen the other way with me! I sincerely hope you never do experience such events. Looking at it from a disinterested viewpoint, however, I do worry about people whose faith relies on a lot of praying.

 

[Watcher]

Sorry about my inattention to this thread. Pretty busy these days.

I'm definitely not talking about a "near-death" experience in terms of a "light at the end of the tunnel" or any of that stuff. Never had any of that. Have no opinion really on what it means, it does not interest me.

What I am referring to is the stripping away of the psyche's protective layers when we have a traumatic experience. Psychologically we are protected from truly comprehending the nature of death or severe trauma because if we perceived it fully, all the time, we would go insane or at least be impaired from a normal existence. So we are protected, most of the time, from the harsh reality. I think we play games that make us THINK we have a coping strategy (religion, intellectualism, etc.).

My point is that no matter how well-grounded you think you may be (from the comfort of your living room) - when you are faced with the ultimate reality of death or the horror or physical trauma, you may discover new ways of perceiving the world. Will you suddenly become religious? I've seen that happen, I am not sure it is common. There's the old "there are no athiests in a foxhole" theory about war. I can't comment since I have never been in a war, which is a whole other kind of near-death experience.

I guess the real point of all this meandering is that I am always a bit skeptical when people are absolutely convinced that their viewpoint (athiest, Christian, whatever) is rock-solid and that no event will ever change them.

 

[mis-t-highs]

Will you suddenly become religious? I've seen that happen,

two points 1, was the person or persons religoius beforehand,(are you sure they were not( even if they were a little religious, the trauma could of just strengthened it)) 2, a traumatic episode can cause allsorts of illusions, a traumatic episode could even alter the mind of the most staunch believer or non believer, anything that is not Conducent to how the person was before the trauma can not be taken seriously.

There's the old "there are no athiests in a foxhole" theory .

No Atheists in Foxholes - An Ignorant Statement


I would like to take a look at what is generally meant when someone says there are no Atheists in foxholes. Those who say this seem to be under the impression that, faced with certain death, an Atheist breaks down and calls to a god for saving. In other words, the Atheist abandons atheism for theism. There're a few things wrong with this thinking: the purpose of saying it, the reason such things may occur, and that it is an unreliable assumption.

I see no point in spewing such things about Atheists. Is it supposed to debunk atheism? Make us look as though we are actually psuedo-Atheists or in the closet theists? Perhaps it is to make the Atheist look weak. In the end, it's a pointless thing to say other than to defame.

Do Atheists actually call out to "God" when faced with death? Some probably do. When faced with what is perceived as certain death, many of us probably realize that we would rather keep on living. We get desperate for life, we see that this life is about to end. Rational thinking breaks down and logic no longer rules the court when a person begins to panic. The realization of one's demise can certainly bring panic. This could open the window for an Atheist to cry out to a god he/she does not believe in.

What about indoctrination. From birth most of us are indoctrination to believe that God or Jesus (or whatever god are being worshiped) is there for us. Even though such things can be outgrown, we still have that seed buried within the subconscious. Anyone can proudly march through life wearing armor of reason, but, when death comes, it really doesn't matter. We're human beings, we're subject to the effects of our environment and genes. If we're told (believing it or not) our entire lives (especially from birth by the people we trust and love most: our parents) that this or that will save us or help us, we may very well call out to that particular device of saving when we realize nothing else will work. It's desperation, not a conversion or proof that Atheism is bunk. It is someone trying to escape death, nothing more.

There is no reason to think the saying "there are no Atheists in foxholes" has any reason to be considered true. There is no way of knowing how many Atheists die "in the foxhole". Since death tends to be rather permanent, we can't ask them later if they suddenly realized that they weren't really an atheist at all, if it was just a phase. Those people who like to spew such words as "there are no Atheists in foxholes" either choose to ignore or are ignorant of the fact that many theists become atheists while "in the foxhole". I was lucky enough to hear the story of a man who was in Vietnam. He went there a Christian, returned an Atheist. War, death, and fear will induce different behavior and thoughts from different people. I don't defame Christianity because people abandon it after disaster. Please don't defame Atheism because someone is afraid of dying.

Personally, I believe that most theists are intelligent enough to be aware that the saying "there are no atheists in foxholes" is ridiculous. Hopefully, most of those who realize this don't say it. Hopefully I'm not wrong in believing this, I know I've been hearing it quite a bit lately.


Atheists are subject to the same fears and psychological responses to death as anyone else. It shouldn't be used as a tool to belittle or attack us. We are, after all, only human.
with thanks to IA

 

[SkinWalker]

There's the old "there are no athiests in a foxhole" theory about war. I can't comment since I have never been in a war, which is a whole other kind of near-death experience.

I'm living, breathing proof that readily refutes that old addage. I was an atheist and spent many nights in foxholes in war. I said, "goddamnit" several times while digging them! But I never really acknowledged one as a reality. In fact, I've had at least two brushes with death -thought I was a goner for sure- and never once reconsidered my worldviews. At the time of each event, I was too busy trying to survive to think about nonsense and superstition.

 

[ellion]

Seems to me that our belief system and psychological makeup are the sum total of all our life-traumas, big or little.

could there be anything else that creates our belief systems and influences psychological development?