Natural selection makes no sense?

Pithikos

Registered Member
According to natural selection mutations happen to populations so that the offsprings from the mutated folk inherits the mutation. If the mutation is an asset to the being's survival, other beings without the mutation will die and the mutated will be the new "stronger" kind.

So what about the whites in Europe that once had black ancestors? Did the black ones in Europe die because of vitamin D deficit and the ones who luckily were born albinos survived?
 
1- Not all mutations are advantageous, on the contrary, the majority of them are not. may be fatal or deficient in some regard

2- advantage is context-specific. An advantage in one place (being green in the jungle) might be a hazard in another (being green in the artic tundra)

3- contexts can change (refer to Peppered moth)
 
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Natural selection is about the balance between being the eater and being the eaten. Most mutations put you on the menu.
 
nothing supports evolution except word salad.
there are certainly no lab tests that support it, none that i've seen anyway.
 
According to natural selection mutations happen to populations so that the offsprings from the mutated folk inherits the mutation. If the mutation is an asset to the being's survival, other beings without the mutation will die and the mutated will be the new "stronger" kind.

It's a bit more complicated than that. But it is true that if a mutation gives one segment of the population a much better chance of surviving to reproductive age then it will likely come to dominate the population over time.

So what about the whites in Europe that once had black ancestors? Did the black ones in Europe die because of vitamin D deficit and the ones who luckily were born albinos survived?

Possibly.

It is also possible that there was merely a genetic drift in populations that became isolated.

Not all mutations are harmful or helpful. A lot of them are simply neutral.
 
nothing supports evolution except word salad.

This is false, and a knowing lie on leopold's part.

there are certainly no lab tests that support it, none that i've seen anyway.

This is a lie on leopold's part. Other people here have explicitly shown leopold evidence of such tests at numerous times in the past on sciforums.

leopold has been officially warned to stop telling lies.
 
According to natural selection mutations happen to populations so that the offsprings from the mutated folk inherits the mutation. If the mutation is an asset to the being's survival, other beings without the mutation will die and the mutated will be the new "stronger" kind.

So what about the whites in Europe that once had black ancestors? Did the black ones in Europe die because of vitamin D deficit and the ones who luckily were born albinos survived?
It's more likely that there was always a degree of variation in melanin within the human gene pool. In Europe, it was probably true that lighter color skin contributed to a higher survival rate. That higher rate of survival didn't have to be spectacular, it could have been very minor. Over time, this led to a gradual increase in the prevalence of lighter skin in the gene pool.
 
This is false, and a knowing lie on leopold's part.



This is a lie on leopold's part. Other people here have explicitly shown leopold evidence of such tests at numerous times in the past on sciforums.

leopold has been officially warned to stop telling lies.
yes i have.
the lab results that cells can be formed from the elements is where?
the lab results that say adaptation can be applied to evolution is where?
 
yes i have.
the lab results that cells can be formed from the elements is where?

You don't even need a lab for that. What else would cells be formed from?

the lab results that say adaptation can be applied to evolution is where?

We've had many threads on this. For example:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...9-s-idea-of-the-evolution-of-multicellularity

Here's a post where billvon actually gave you, leopold a specific example:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...-Evolution-V&p=2932479&viewfull=1#post2932479

Then there's the entire talkorigins.org achive, which includes many such examples.

Stop telling lies, leopold. Last warning.
 
james,
i make the following statement with the assumption you have read the issue in question.
how can you sit there, knowing what you know, and take the stance you have in this thread?

this is my final post in this thread.
 
So what about the whites in Europe that once had black ancestors? Did the black ones in Europe die because of vitamin D deficit and the ones who luckily were born albinos survived?

Europeans are not albinos. Albinoism is often associated with impaired vision, so it is not a very likely trait that would be favored.
 
james,
i make the following statement with the assumption you have read the issue in question.
how can you sit there, knowing what you know, and take the stance you have in this thread?

this is my final post in this thread.

I can only assume that you sit there not knowing (or refusing to know) what we know.
 
According to natural selection mutations happen to populations so that the offsprings from the mutated folk inherits the mutation. If the mutation is an asset to the being's survival, other beings without the mutation will die and the mutated will be the new "stronger" kind.

This is a good thread topic.

So what about the whites in Europe that once had black ancestors? Did the black ones in Europe die because of vitamin D deficit and the ones who luckily were born albinos survived?

This part sucks. But what the hey. In a word, albinism is not the complement to Vitamin D deficiency, since it's a harmful mutation that carries severe disabilities including blindness. I don't think it's necessary to assume that early inhabitants of Europe were black,or that pigmentation change was particularly significant among the variations in traits that emerged among the various gene pools that became regionally isolated. Besides, the large shift in pigmentation may not have been from Africa to Europe per se, but from southern to northern Europe.

From all of the geographic distributions of skin shade still prevalent in the world today it should be evident that this is closer to the variations seen in any other species that exhibits adaptive radiation.

Natural selection is statistical, so it's not likely that death was necessarily assured by darker skin shades at the higher latitudes, but that the odds favored fair skin over a large number trials and over many generations.

Acting in concert with natural selection is genetic drift, which is seen in other species affecting their coloration. Furthermore, the cause for white fur for the many animals living in snowy environments is camouflage. You wouldn't want to rule this out as part of the process.

It's likely that people who settled around the coastal regions of Europe had plenty of Vitamin D since it's available from seafood. For this reason, dark pigmentation would not necessarily be selected out in those regions of Europe on account of Vitamin D deficiency.
 
This is a good thread topic.
..I don't think it's necessary to assume that early inhabitants of Europe were black,or that pigmentation change was particularly significant among the variations in traits that emerged among the various gene pools that became regionally isolated. Besides, the large shift in pigmentation may not have been from Africa to Europe per se, but from southern to northern Europe.
Ok, but how did the first whites get created then? If two black people make a baby, it's a black one. If a black and a white make a baby, it's a brown one. But that white has to come from somewhere and the only way you can get a white when only blacks are around is if it's a person without melanin - thus an albino.

In the other hand if this was a gradual change from being black to being white, then still you need the lighter parent to come from somewhere.

If it's just all about mutation, then how did the mutation happen to solely lower the melanin production? I can't understand how mutations can be that perfect.

Acting in concert with natural selection is genetic drift, which is seen in other species affecting their coloration. Furthermore, the cause for white fur for the many animals living in snowy environments is camouflage. You wouldn't want to rule this out as part of the process.
From the little I know on biology, the DNA can't change during one's lifespan. Thus your DNA can't change to make you more adaptive to the environment. That's actually the thing that makes it very hard for me to digest natural selection.
 
the lab results that cells can be formed from the elements is where?

That's abiogenesis, not evolution. But yes, lab results exist showing:

-complex molecules can form from simple elements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment
-self replicating molecules can reproduce indefinitely: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16382-artificial-molecule-evolves-in-the-lab.html

the lab results that say adaptation can be applied to evolution is where?

See my previous posts where evolution (specifically speciation) has been observed in labs.
 
If it's just all about mutation, then how did the mutation happen to solely lower the melanin production? I can't understand how mutations can be that perfect.

They're not. It took hundreds of generations to get there, and the change happened very slowly over time, since lighter (not white) skinned people had a _slight_ survival advantage.

From the little I know on biology, the DNA can't change during one's lifespan. Thus your DNA can't change to make you more adaptive to the environment. That's actually the thing that makes it very hard for me to digest natural selection.

Correct. Evolution doesn't work by changing DNA in living organisms. It works by introducing random changes, then killing off DNA that's less than ideal.
 
Ok, but how did the first whites get created then? If two black people make a baby, it's a black one. If a black and a white make a baby, it's a brown one. But that white has to come from somewhere and the only way you can get a white when only blacks are around is if it's a person without melanin - thus an albino. In the other hand if this was a gradual change from being black to being white, then still you need the lighter parent to come from somewhere.

Black people are not really black and white people are not really white. In the population of indiginous africans there is a range of skin color. Skin color is primarily controled by the pigment melanin. In an area where there is less sunlight the lightest skinned of the dark skinned population would have a very slight advantage due to the higher ability to produce vitamine D. This slight advantage over time will tend to produce a lighter skinned population. There is also the possibility that there is a certain amount of energy expended by our bodies to produce melanin and if the melanin is not needed to reduce skin cancer, because the population is in the north, then that also would be an advantage to the lighter skinned (lower melanin) individuals during times of little food when the difference between life and death could be just a few calories.

If it's just all about mutation, then how did the mutation happen to solely lower the melanin production? I can't understand how mutations can be that perfect.

As I stated I don't think this was about mutation as much as a concentration of population in a 'tail' of the natural distribution of skin color.

I think the problem with not understanding mutations is that you think there is some direction or purpose of evolution. It ain't like that. Mutations happen; if it is good or neutral the individual will survive if it is bad the individual will die. If you look at an individual and say "how come all the mutations in the earlier generations were good"? The simple answer is that all the bad mutations died with the individual that orginally had the mutation. It is like having a bunch of targets and shooting arrows at the target but everytime you don't get a bulls eye you throw the target away. At the end of the session you will have only bulls eyes, it is not that never missed, it is just that you only kept bulls eyes. It is just that simple, no magic.
 
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