In my time here at Sciforums I have learned a great many things about religion, philosophy, culture, and our universe. I learned what scientists estimate to be the number of stars in our galaxy, the predicted size of our universe, how religion affects the rational and irrational mind, and many other priceless gems of knowledge.
Of all the great things I've learned, there are a noteable few which have piqued my interest beyond that of a casual curiosity. They include the pyramids, the historical proof of Jesus Christ, extrasolar planets, and the subject of this new discussion--Crater Chains.
Not because they are overly exciting to me, or because I instinctually find some connection between this curious phenomenon and alien life, but because of how absolutely sold on this theory Norval was.
If you don't know Norval, his tag is "Craterchains (Norval" and he is an ardent believer in UFO visitation of Earth, and that, most notably, aliens waged war in the cosmos billions of years ago! If that sounds outrageous, don't blame him; his ideas aren't original.
I researched this thing he calls interstellar war, and came to a couple of conclusions; one will sound like debunkery and lie mongering to the believers, and the other will sound like insults and semantics to them.
To those of you who are willing to listen to reason, and understand that evidence is the only way to come to a reasonable conclusion to anything, will find this quite enlightening. After all, I doubt any of you have really done much research on the subject, simply because it doesn't seem worthwhile. And I admit, it really wasn't. But what it did accomplish is far greater than the short time I put into it: A counter-argument to Norval. Now I can finally offer something to a conversation with Norval regarding his very namesake.
Crater Chains.
Firstly, I did a search on MSN Search for Crater Chains, and the first entry was www.craterchains.com. Hell, why not start there? After all, they would have to be the experts on the matter, considering they hold the domain name, right? And it happens to be the official website of our very own Norval!
They provided stunning pictures, which I will post here now...
Crater Chain on Callisto
Crater Chains on Ganymede
Another Crater Chain on Ganymede
Crater Chain on Mirdanda
Crater Chains on Phobos
The stars of these stunning images are, of course, the very clear, overlapping crater chains. Ganymede and Callisto, moons of Jupiter, may be the most spectacular of them all. See for yourselves.
OK, so let's look at the facts: There are craters, and then seemingly sticking out like a sore thumb are crater chains. They are different from typical craters in the fact that they overlap each other, and are laid in almost straight lines. In all of these chains (or at least those pictures above) there is a dominant crater somewhere near the middle, with smaller craters in a row on either side.
Now, the Believer's perspective: These craters are in order, resembling strafing strikes similar to those caused by WWII fighter planes as they streaked across the sky. The Believer says that these craters are too neat, too orderly to be random. "Nonrandom" is actually the term they use to describe them. What causes these nonrandom craters? Weapons.
Yeah, weapons.
As a matter of fact, the folks at Craterchains.com have gone as far as to propose a history of these craters, and these are the conclusions they have come to:
So, according to craterchains.com, not only are these craters caused by a war that happened thousands or millions or billions of years ago, they postulate that the war began small but grew, becoming a "solar system wide war" and even assigned the Earth as the place for the "losers."
And the fact is that scientists did not have an answer for these craters for a long time. They simply could not really explain them. Some tried, but mainstream science could not find common ground on this subject.
In 1993, however, that all changed.
Science explains the craterchains on the moons of Jupiter as the result of comets! SL9(Shoemaker-Levy 9), also known as the "string of pearls" comet, is what brought about this theory. Spectators on Earth watched, over 384 days, as SL9 broke apart and slammed into Jupiter. This evidence for crater chains via natural means caused scientists to state that the crater chains around the solar system are caused by these means as well.
A comet orbits too close to a planet or body and begins to break apart. Simple, but effective. It lands in a pattern and creates a crater chain.
The Believer states that the extreme length of time SL9 broke apart and landed on Jupiter does not fall in line with the crater chains in question, but that is not exactly true. If you notice how SL9 impacted, you will notice that the impacts are visible, meaning that they are large. If you look at a crater chain, one must assume that the chain is created at once (even the Believer agrees with this) and would constitute a single impact.
We cannot see the impacts created by SL9 on Jupiter, but we can see what a broken-apart comet impact might look like on the surfaces on Miranda, Mars, Phobos, Ganymede, and Callisto. Perhaps each individual impact site on Jupiter from the SL9 comet looks like a crater chain?
Of course, what the SL9 impact sites look like on Jupiter is speculation. But even if the crater chain on Jupiter consists of single craters along a great distance, it fits the model: Long, consistant lines of craters that do not match typical crater placement. Not all of the crater chains in question overlap, so to nitpick at the distance between uniform impacts would be nonsensical.
Finally, the problem I see in this whole argument is the incredible jump in logic made from "I wonder how these crater chains were formed" to "Solar system-wide war machines." That is a conclusion not brought about by the scientific method.
Another problem is how craterchains.com makes the assertion that the craters are as follows:
O O O O O O O O O O O
In fact, the craters are more similar to this:
o o 0 0 o o oo O o 0o0 o o0
The craters vary in size, and in distance from each other. This is even true in the overlapping chains, as some of them almost overlap each other completely, while others more closely resemble links in a chain. The fact is that they are hardly uniform beyond the fact that they are somewhat in a row.
The other problem, and it is magnified on craterchains.com, is that the scientific explanation for crater chains is given, then dismissed with unfounded claims such as "there is no way" or "it takes intelligence to create this" or "the chances are near zero." They even go so far as to say that Phobos, Uranus' innermost moon, was a base of some sort. Their evidence? "It must have been important to require this much attention (crater chains)" This is said despite the fact that of all the photos in question, none of them are less spectacular than Phobos. Try to find a good, clear chain on Phobos. I dare you.
My conclusion is as follows...
While crater chains provide excitement and a reason to look into outter space, the truth about them is less than exciting when compared to the interstellar war proposed by Norval and his friends.
To the rest of us, this theory is very exciting. To think of what could happen to us should a comet brake up in our orbit! How much devestation would a modest-sized impact chain cause?
Aside from that? Well, basically it comes down to the old point I've made in so many threads before: There is no evidence for what Norval proposes. And in direct opposition of his theory is physical evidence for sciences' argument for crater chain making, as we witnessed it's occurance on Jupiter!
And I would love to know how the parties in question (Norval and his pal) not only came to the conclusion that war broke out in space between the planets, but how they came to the conclusion that Earth was the final resting place of the losers of that war. For this, they provide nothing on the website.
That's all, folks.
JD
Of all the great things I've learned, there are a noteable few which have piqued my interest beyond that of a casual curiosity. They include the pyramids, the historical proof of Jesus Christ, extrasolar planets, and the subject of this new discussion--Crater Chains.
Not because they are overly exciting to me, or because I instinctually find some connection between this curious phenomenon and alien life, but because of how absolutely sold on this theory Norval was.
If you don't know Norval, his tag is "Craterchains (Norval" and he is an ardent believer in UFO visitation of Earth, and that, most notably, aliens waged war in the cosmos billions of years ago! If that sounds outrageous, don't blame him; his ideas aren't original.
I researched this thing he calls interstellar war, and came to a couple of conclusions; one will sound like debunkery and lie mongering to the believers, and the other will sound like insults and semantics to them.
To those of you who are willing to listen to reason, and understand that evidence is the only way to come to a reasonable conclusion to anything, will find this quite enlightening. After all, I doubt any of you have really done much research on the subject, simply because it doesn't seem worthwhile. And I admit, it really wasn't. But what it did accomplish is far greater than the short time I put into it: A counter-argument to Norval. Now I can finally offer something to a conversation with Norval regarding his very namesake.
Crater Chains.
Firstly, I did a search on MSN Search for Crater Chains, and the first entry was www.craterchains.com. Hell, why not start there? After all, they would have to be the experts on the matter, considering they hold the domain name, right? And it happens to be the official website of our very own Norval!
They provided stunning pictures, which I will post here now...
Crater Chain on Callisto
Crater Chains on Ganymede
Another Crater Chain on Ganymede
Crater Chain on Mirdanda
Crater Chains on Phobos
The stars of these stunning images are, of course, the very clear, overlapping crater chains. Ganymede and Callisto, moons of Jupiter, may be the most spectacular of them all. See for yourselves.
OK, so let's look at the facts: There are craters, and then seemingly sticking out like a sore thumb are crater chains. They are different from typical craters in the fact that they overlap each other, and are laid in almost straight lines. In all of these chains (or at least those pictures above) there is a dominant crater somewhere near the middle, with smaller craters in a row on either side.
Now, the Believer's perspective: These craters are in order, resembling strafing strikes similar to those caused by WWII fighter planes as they streaked across the sky. The Believer says that these craters are too neat, too orderly to be random. "Nonrandom" is actually the term they use to describe them. What causes these nonrandom craters? Weapons.
Yeah, weapons.
As a matter of fact, the folks at Craterchains.com have gone as far as to propose a history of these craters, and these are the conclusions they have come to:
So, according to craterchains.com, not only are these craters caused by a war that happened thousands or millions or billions of years ago, they postulate that the war began small but grew, becoming a "solar system wide war" and even assigned the Earth as the place for the "losers."
And the fact is that scientists did not have an answer for these craters for a long time. They simply could not really explain them. Some tried, but mainstream science could not find common ground on this subject.
In 1993, however, that all changed.
Science explains the craterchains on the moons of Jupiter as the result of comets! SL9(Shoemaker-Levy 9), also known as the "string of pearls" comet, is what brought about this theory. Spectators on Earth watched, over 384 days, as SL9 broke apart and slammed into Jupiter. This evidence for crater chains via natural means caused scientists to state that the crater chains around the solar system are caused by these means as well.
A comet orbits too close to a planet or body and begins to break apart. Simple, but effective. It lands in a pattern and creates a crater chain.
The Believer states that the extreme length of time SL9 broke apart and landed on Jupiter does not fall in line with the crater chains in question, but that is not exactly true. If you notice how SL9 impacted, you will notice that the impacts are visible, meaning that they are large. If you look at a crater chain, one must assume that the chain is created at once (even the Believer agrees with this) and would constitute a single impact.
We cannot see the impacts created by SL9 on Jupiter, but we can see what a broken-apart comet impact might look like on the surfaces on Miranda, Mars, Phobos, Ganymede, and Callisto. Perhaps each individual impact site on Jupiter from the SL9 comet looks like a crater chain?
Of course, what the SL9 impact sites look like on Jupiter is speculation. But even if the crater chain on Jupiter consists of single craters along a great distance, it fits the model: Long, consistant lines of craters that do not match typical crater placement. Not all of the crater chains in question overlap, so to nitpick at the distance between uniform impacts would be nonsensical.
Finally, the problem I see in this whole argument is the incredible jump in logic made from "I wonder how these crater chains were formed" to "Solar system-wide war machines." That is a conclusion not brought about by the scientific method.
Another problem is how craterchains.com makes the assertion that the craters are as follows:
O O O O O O O O O O O
In fact, the craters are more similar to this:
o o 0 0 o o oo O o 0o0 o o0
The craters vary in size, and in distance from each other. This is even true in the overlapping chains, as some of them almost overlap each other completely, while others more closely resemble links in a chain. The fact is that they are hardly uniform beyond the fact that they are somewhat in a row.
The other problem, and it is magnified on craterchains.com, is that the scientific explanation for crater chains is given, then dismissed with unfounded claims such as "there is no way" or "it takes intelligence to create this" or "the chances are near zero." They even go so far as to say that Phobos, Uranus' innermost moon, was a base of some sort. Their evidence? "It must have been important to require this much attention (crater chains)" This is said despite the fact that of all the photos in question, none of them are less spectacular than Phobos. Try to find a good, clear chain on Phobos. I dare you.
My conclusion is as follows...
While crater chains provide excitement and a reason to look into outter space, the truth about them is less than exciting when compared to the interstellar war proposed by Norval and his friends.
To the rest of us, this theory is very exciting. To think of what could happen to us should a comet brake up in our orbit! How much devestation would a modest-sized impact chain cause?
Aside from that? Well, basically it comes down to the old point I've made in so many threads before: There is no evidence for what Norval proposes. And in direct opposition of his theory is physical evidence for sciences' argument for crater chain making, as we witnessed it's occurance on Jupiter!
And I would love to know how the parties in question (Norval and his pal) not only came to the conclusion that war broke out in space between the planets, but how they came to the conclusion that Earth was the final resting place of the losers of that war. For this, they provide nothing on the website.
That's all, folks.
JD
), make your fav girl an internet celebrity!