My theory on the speed of neutrinos

[DRZion]

Since the other thread is over-crowded I thought I would speculate on this one here.

I have two hypotheses-

1. Neutrinos are able to modulate the speed of time when they travel in these clumps. This would support the fluctuation in decay rates as a measure of neutron density (but not really, because any time piece would also experience this fluctuation in time and so no net difference). This could probably be measured with the right equipment - a neutrino source and some method of measuring the speed of light passing through it.

2. I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum. Scharnhorst effect and other related principles would be the source of this difference. Its not that neutrinos are travelling faster than light, its that time is moving more quickly for the neutrinos. If light were to pass through several hundred kilometers of rock it would also appear to be moving faster than c in my opinion.

 

[CptBork]

2. I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum. Scharnhorst effect and other related principles would be the source of this difference. Its not that neutrinos are travelling faster than light, its that time is moving more quickly for the neutrinos. If light were to pass through several hundred kilometers of rock it would also appear to be moving faster than c in my opinion.

When measuring the speed of a neutrino, the elapsed time in the lab frames is what counts, not the amount of proper time experienced by the neutrino itself. Wait for the dust to settle before speculating too much- this isn't the first time a spectacular claim has been made by a small, respected team of scientists and then overturned by a more detailed investigation. I'd be excited if the findings were confirmed, but it certainly wouldn't be enough to throw Relativity down the bathtub and completely start from scratch, and I'm honestly not expecting much to come of this claim once it's cross-checked.

 

[Magneto_1]

DRZion,

I just knew that "BetaNumeric" would have been all over this.

Just having fun!!

Since the other thread is over-crowded I thought I would speculate on this one here.

I have two hypotheses-.

Really!!

1. Neutrinos are able to modulate the speed of time when they travel in these clumps.

What are these clumps?

What is the speed of time?

What signals are the Neutrinos modulating exactly?

This would support the fluctuation in decay rates as a measure of neutron density

What would support fluctuation in decay rates as a measure of neutron density?

Typically fluctuations in nuclear decay rates are due to semi-random or statistical probable interactions of the high density nucleus due to the number of neutrons or protons which are also composite particles in the nucleus.

(but not really, because any time piece would also experience this fluctuation in time and so no net difference).

What time piece?

What net difference?

This could probably be measured with the right equipment - a neutrino source and some method of measuring the speed of light passing through it.

I truly doubt that what you have described above can be measured!

2. I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum.

Since you are willing to quiz or bet; why would neutrinos travel at the speed smaller than c through vacuum? What other property do objects have in the universe that forces them to travel at speeds less than light (c) through the vacuum?

Scharnhorst effect and other related principles would be the source of this difference.

Source of what difference?

Name just one other principle?

Its not that neutrinos are travelling faster than light, its that time is moving more quickly for the neutrinos.

According to Special Relativity (SR) the faster an object moves the slower time is moving for that fast moving object; in the objects frame. In (SR) the object at rest ages more quickly.

If according to Special Relativity (SR) time and space are frame of reference dependent, would not every measurement of time be a true measurement of time in that frame. Meaning if you are able to measure the time of another frame (neutrinos) then time is moving the same for the both of you during that measurement.

If light were to pass through several hundred kilometers of rock it would also appear to be moving faster than c in my opinion.

Then how do you explain that all other previous results of sending light through a dense medium (gases, liquids, solids including rocks) the light was refracted and slowed down as it passed through a dense medium?

 

[billvon]

2. I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum.

Or the speed of light is slower at sea level than it is at a lower gravitational potential, and neutrinos are not affected as much by that gravitational effect.

 

[James R]

I have two hypotheses-

1. Neutrinos are able to modulate the speed of time when they travel in these clumps.

Is this an actual hypothesis, or just a guess based on nothing?

If it's a hypothesis, please post the reasons you suspect it might be true - i.e. how does the hypothesis follow from fundamental physical principles.

Also, please post any mathematical derivations you have.

Remember, this is the Physics forum, not the Sci-fi forum or the fantasy forum.

2. I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum. Scharnhorst effect and other related principles would be the source of this difference. Its not that neutrinos are travelling faster than light, its that time is moving more quickly for the neutrinos. If light were to pass through several hundred kilometers of rock it would also appear to be moving faster than c in my opinion.

Please explain the Scharnhorst effect.

Please explain how your hypothesis follows from this.

Include any mathematical derivations that are relevant.

 

[DRZion]

@ magneto
I really though there weren't too many outlandish claims made in my post but boy, was I wrong!!
If the density of neutrinos affects the flow of time, and everything on earth is saturated with these, then the flow of time would be uniform on earth as a result of neutrino flux. The clock that measured decay rates speeds up/slows down just as much as the decay rate rises/falls, and no net difference is recorded. So, its prolly not the neutrino flux itself which alters the flow of time, or at least that study does not support this claim.

As for the 2nd hypothesis, the idea is that there is another form of time dilation aside from relativistic time dilation - one which can change the flow of time. Vacuum energy has a lower density inside of rocks than it does in vacuum, which would allow a different speed of light. Or rather, it allows for observation of a different speed of light while we were all just mistaken as to the actual speed of light. But, seeing how much of experimental particle physics is right and how much it depends on the speed of light maximum at c and the relativistic effects, a better explanation would be that time gets 'stretched' where vacuum energy is lower. So, the neutrinos would have an equivalent kinetic energy inside and outside the rock, but they would appear to be moving faster when inside. And everyone is happy

Billvon, that would be very difficult to disprove. Neutrinos are very elusive particles so it seems that they could get away from gravity more easily than photons. I mean, there is no way that photons can pass through 500 miles of rock, while neutrinos do it with near 100% certainty.

CptBork,
I think you are right to be cautious, but I also think there is reason to withhold a rebuke - similar results were observed at the tevatron but outside of statistical significance. I know that in some journals that means a no-no, but other times scientists are more tolerant (usually its when a magnificent working theory is not at stake ).

 

[DRZion]

Sorry James R, but I didn't see your post, I was already responding when you wrote yours.

Is this an actual hypothesis, or just a guess based on nothing?

If it's a hypothesis, please post the reasons you suspect it might be true - i.e. how does the hypothesis follow from fundamental physical principles.

Its more or less a hunch. It makes sense that when the structure of the vacuum is changed light may travel through it at a different speed. And it is certain that the vacuum is altered in rock compared to space vacuum. It is based on the same principle as the casimir force - where two plates will attract/repel one another because of the pressure difference caused by different densities of vacuum on two sides of a plate. Inside of rock, its as if the two plates were simply squished against one another.

So, it is an educated guess or hypothesis, it is not baseless.

Also, please post any mathematical derivations you have.

Don't know any, sorry. It is safe for me to say that it is a very murky subject matter. The theoretical approximation of vacuum energy is bazillions times that which was measured.

Please explain the Scharnhorst effect.

The scharnhorst effect says that photons interact with particles which originated in the vacuum. Less particles means less interaction and a higher speed of photons through an altered vacuum.

Please explain how your hypothesis follows from this.

I just think the two are in the same scientific/intellectual realm. Since scharnhorst effect has been proven, I am hoping it will lend some credibility to my 'hypothesis' or whatever you want to call it.

 

[DRZion]

Or the speed of light is slower at sea level than it is at a lower gravitational potential, and neutrinos are not affected as much by that gravitational effect.

This has been analyzed, at least partially-

Y. Ohkuwa: Effect of a background gravitational field on the velocity of neutrinos. Progress of Theoretical Physics 65(1981)1058 (DOI: 10.1143/PTP.65.1058 = http://dx.doi.org/10.1143/PTP.65.1058)


What about the Mikheyev–Smirnov–Wolfenstein effect
, which states "neutrinos in matter have a different effective mass than neutrinos in vacuum"
I bet this has been considered already, it seems like a fairly prominent theory among physics history, am I right?

And another interesting article-
http://grattalab3.stanford.edu/neutrino/KamLAND/ArticlesAboutKamLAND/KL_PhysTodArt.html

 

[prometheus]

Mod note: We already have a number of threads on the CERN paper that talks about faster than light neutrinos. That, coupled with the thread title means it's time for this thread to move to a more appropriate forum.

 

[DRZion]

Yo, what really needs to be done is them to measure the speeds of those neutrinos as a SEISMIC WAVE passes through the path of the neutrino - see how those little buggers like that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5VXJXxnNU

 

[Reiku]

Since the other thread is over-crowded I thought I would speculate on this one here.

I have two hypotheses-

1. Neutrinos are able to modulate the speed of time when they travel in these clumps. This would support the fluctuation in decay rates as a measure of neutron density (but not really, because any time piece would also experience this fluctuation in time and so no net difference). This could probably be measured with the right equipment - a neutrino source and some method of measuring the speed of light passing through it.

2. I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum. Scharnhorst effect and other related principles would be the source of this difference. Its not that neutrinos are travelling faster than light, its that time is moving more quickly for the neutrinos. If light were to pass through several hundred kilometers of rock it would also appear to be moving faster than c in my opinion.

Bolded by me... in other words, you didn't want to spam someone elses worthless thread in the alternatives theory subforum, so instead you made a worthless thread of your own... I wouldn't alienate myself like you do, this is just how it works.


Though comments like ''Neutrinos are able to modulate the speed of time '' and '' I am almost willing to bet that the speed of neutrinos is smaller than c through vacuum'' are two related, but not backed with any references, or even simularity as you skip one paragraph to another. It is almost like you are watching a movie being played in your head, and all you can physically do is write about it.