My statement of belief (so far)

W

water

the sea
Registered Senior Member
My statement of belief (so far)


As some of you have seen, I have been rather upset lately, esp. in that "I hate Christians" thread, and I owe you an explanation.


I know I probably look like someone sitting on a fence and not going either way, and it looks like I support beliefs as they come to my convenience.

I have a certain grasp of Christianity. Some things I can speak about very convincingly.

I would make a hollow claim if I would say that I believe all those things to be true for myself.
This is NOT to say I find them false. I have just not been granted to believe them, and no amount of intellectual understanding can make a person believe in an acting God, unless God grants them so.

Intellectual understanding and belief are two different things. One can intellectually understand something, but not believe it. And there need be no ulterior motive in this.

I envy those who have been granted to believe, and I am not proud of this envy. I keep thinking what those of you had done, how you have earned that faith, and why it doesn't work for me. I understand this envy comes from a long tradition of conditioning people into believing that faith is somehow a person's own doing, and that those who have faith, have it all due their own choice, and it is to their own credit. Which is dubious, as it completely leaves the acting God out of the picture.


I do not argue for arguing's sake, I wish this were over, as I am tired and bored of it. But the issue desires to be settled, and I cannot just sweep it under the rug. It doesn't stay there. I have tried to resolve it myself, in private, but to no avail. So I turn to the audience here, maybe you can aid in some way or another.


Those of you who find my imperfection repugnant – there's the ignore button.

The rest, I thank you for your effort so far, and ask you to continue and have patience with me.


*
 
And I thought I was finally going to find out which "ism, ist" you fit into.

If you haven't labeled yourself yet. I have. Please don't take this the wrong way, it's the only label my "own mom" would accept.

Deism. A deist is someone who believes in a supreme god, creator, etc. But does not believe in the religion of men.

So are you a deist?

Godless.
 
Water,

Providing the "proof" to you personally is God's job. Desiring that "proof" is yours. If you sincerely desire to know God then He will make sure that you do. In this life, you get exactly what you want...just not how or when necessarily. God knows the perfect way to come to you....how, when, where, why....so that you will know and understand. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will open. It's true...I've experienced it. It just doesn't happen overnight, so be patient, introspective regarding your intentions, and trust the process.

Love,

Lori
 
I have no one suggestion for you - be a humble learner. Read from all points of view. Life is often the best teacher. Don't stand back and just point fingers. Be part of the world.

I engage in public debate with Christians a lot on campus regarding to the validity of Christianity. As a former evangelical Christian, I know how many Christians think. Debating about faith is always a huge win/lose situation. It often gets heated, and I have to put up with illogical rambling and intellectually dishonest defenses because losing the debate in their mind has huge consequences for Christians. For many Christians, losing their faith means they will get divorced, lose their jobs, become alienated with their family and friends, and ect... I learn not to take things personally when people get hostile. There are many Chrisitians who are not ready to take the "take the red pill" and choose to take the blue pill instead. I can't blame them.
 
I was raised in the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church. Probably because that's the church my parents took me to. After I graduated from highschool in '56, I went to Valparaiso University, a Lutheran school, in northern Indiana. I was 17 years old.

During my first semester, I had some research to do in the school library; nothing to do with religion. But I came across Hayden's book, "The Biography of the Gods" which discussed the five principle religions of the world. In the last paragraph of the last chapter, he wrote, "For too long, man has put off unto the gods those things he should be doing for himself." I had always been ambivalent about religion, and that was the first thing I read that made sense to me. I've been an atheist ever since.

I've thought much about religion over these past 49 years. But I've yet to find any reason or evidence to pursuade me to accept the belief in some spiritual entity. For me, there is no heaven or hell, no gods, devils or angels, no miracles, curses or devine punishments.

Too many cultures have constructed too many beliefs about the world, the universe, our reason for existence and what happens to us after we die. If there are two belief systems, then one must be wrong. If there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, they must all be wrong because it indicates only that people are searching for answers that satisfy their cultural needs.

For example, "Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME" admits to polytheism, the practice of the ancient Jews. Not until the prophet Daniel came along did the Jews come to monotheism. Christianity was a social revolution that became a distinct religion. Mohammad invented Islam to conquer traditional Arab tribalism that threatened the Arab culture and economy in the face of the local successes of Judaism and Christianity. Instead, tribalism conquered Islam and they've been at war against the rest of the world ever since. Hinduism, Buddhism and Shintoism, being oriental, are generally pretty benign.

Add to this milieu, all of the deities in all the lands on all the continents, and you get the idea. All of these choices just tell me that no single logical choice can be made because they only represent cultural preferences. Therefore they are all wrong because there's nothing "devine" about a culture.

When I die, I'll be cremated and inurned in Arlington Cemetery's columbarium. And that'll be it for me. I only hope to have left something good behind for others.

To each his own.
 
water said:
This is NOT to say I find them false. I have just not been granted to believe them, and no amount of intellectual understanding can make a person believe in an acting God, unless God grants them so.

Intellectual understanding and belief are two different things. One can intellectually understand something, but not believe it. And there need be no ulterior motive in this.
Click to expand...
If you understand something but do not believe it then there is a reason that you do not believe it. Any particular piece of knowledge that is gleaned needs to be fitted into a larger world-view before it is believed. Those pieces that do not fit you will not be able to believe in. It's like trying to fit a piece from the wrong puzzle.

The question I have for you is, why does it bother you that you do not believe in Christianity?

~Raithere
 
Water, here's somehting to make you feel better: Christianity is retarded, you're better off. Congratulations!
 
Godless,


Deism. A deist is someone who believes in a supreme god, creator, etc. But does not believe in the religion of men.

So are you a deist?
Click to expand...

No, this is what I actively try to avoid. A deist merely puts a god there where logic can't move further. Such a god is merely a philsophical patch.up, and if anything, more harmful than not putting a god there at all.
If you designate a place as "Hic sunt leones" and say "No further form here, logic can't move past here!", then this hinders you in further pursuits. So, better an atheist than a deist.


* * *

Lori_7


Providing the "proof" to you personally is God's job.
Click to expand...

Please go tell this to Adstar.


Desiring that "proof" is yours. If you sincerely desire to know God then He will make sure that you do. In this life, you get exactly what you want...just not how or when necessarily. God knows the perfect way to come to you....how, when, where, why....so that you will know and understand. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will open. It's true...I've experienced it. It just doesn't happen overnight, so be patient, introspective regarding your intentions, and trust the process.
Click to expand...

You make a good point, but God seems to be taking a lot of time with me.


* * *

Joeman


I have no one suggestion for you - be a humble learner. Read from all points of view. Life is often the best teacher. Don't stand back and just point fingers. Be part of the world.
Click to expand...

All well, but at some point, one must decide. Agnosticism in unbearable.


I engage in public debate with Christians a lot on campus regarding to the validity of Christianity. As a former evangelical Christian, I know how many Christians think. Debating about faith is always a huge win/lose situation. It often gets heated, and I have to put up with illogical rambling and intellectually dishonest defenses because losing the debate in their mind has huge consequences for Christians. For many Christians, losing their faith means they will get divorced, lose their jobs, become alienated with their family and friends, and ect...
Click to expand...

I think those people then don't truly follow Christ, do they?


* * *

marv,


But I've yet to find any reason or evidence to pursuade me to accept the belief in some spiritual entity.
Click to expand...

I don't think that can happen anyway -- not the best reason can ensure that a person will believe something.


Too many cultures have constructed too many beliefs about the world, the universe, our reason for existence and what happens to us after we die. If there are two belief systems, then one must be wrong. If there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, they must all be wrong because it indicates only that people are searching for answers that satisfy their cultural needs.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Maybe each of them possesses parts of the right answer, but not the right answer in full; in fact, this is the likeliest explanation.


* * *


Raithere,


If you understand something but do not believe it then there is a reason that you do not believe it. Any particular piece of knowledge that is gleaned needs to be fitted into a larger world-view before it is believed. Those pieces that do not fit you will not be able to believe in. It's like trying to fit a piece from the wrong puzzle.
Click to expand...

I think a lot has to do with the sheer amount of theories. For exampple, studying linguistics, I am acquainted with usually several theories about the same thing, each one believable from the arguments it uses to support itself. And similar goes for other fields of knowledge.
You can't determine which are the absolutely best arguments to support something; there are only temporarily best arguments.

While in science, one can afford such agnosticism, this doesn't work in psychological or spiritual matters. There, one needs a firm ground to stand on, or one will be a characterless twit and turn as the wind blows.


The question I have for you is, why does it bother you that you do not believe in Christianity?
Click to expand...

A very good question.

I am unable to discard it, and unable to accept it. It is a possibility, and just that, and this bugs me.
I am sick of intellectual possibilities; I want something constant and reliable.
 
Hi water,

Thanks for clarifying. I really love your honesty. And I believe "honesty" is the key to the spiritual. Keep on searching but always keep in mind, life is to be enjoyed. In the end, the answers are really simple.

Allcare.
 
water said:
Do you think they are wrong in what they believe?
Click to expand...

Yes I think so. At least, I want them to change. However, I am not sure if I want that out of selfishness or if I really think their lives would be better if they believed something else. I do not want them to suffer, and for many them to lose faith would be to suffer.

I don´t think I have the sense of urgency you do over establishing my stance. Perhaps it is because I am young and life is too uncertain.

At times I do get frustrated enough to think about declaring something, or of trying to argue with Them. However, I like myself best when I don´t feel that way.

At the moment, I guess I´m just a ¨characterless twit¨ in the wind. ;)
 
Did you ever study any other religions, Water? That's probably ideal right about now...
 
water said:
My statement of belief (so far)


As some of you have seen, I have been rather upset lately, esp. in that "I hate Christians" thread, and I owe you an explanation.


I know I probably look like someone sitting on a fence and not going either way, and it looks like I support beliefs as they come to my convenience.

I have a certain grasp of Christianity. Some things I can speak about very convincingly.

I would make a hollow claim if I would say that I believe all those things to be true for myself.
This is NOT to say I find them false. I have just not been granted to believe them, and no amount of intellectual understanding can make a person believe in an acting God, unless God grants them so.

Intellectual understanding and belief are two different things. One can intellectually understand something, but not believe it. And there need be no ulterior motive in this.

I envy those who have been granted to believe, and I am not proud of this envy. I keep thinking what those of you had done, how you have earned that faith, and why it doesn't work for me. I understand this envy comes from a long tradition of conditioning people into believing that faith is somehow a person's own doing, and that those who have faith, have it all due their own choice, and it is to their own credit. Which is dubious, as it completely leaves the acting God out of the picture.


I do not argue for arguing's sake, I wish this were over, as I am tired and bored of it. But the issue desires to be settled, and I cannot just sweep it under the rug. It doesn't stay there. I have tried to resolve it myself, in private, but to no avail. So I turn to the audience here, maybe you can aid in some way or another.


Those of you who find my imperfection repugnant – there's the ignore button.

The rest, I thank you for your effort so far, and ask you to continue and have patience with me.


*
Click to expand...

Religions like science attempt to explain the nature of ourselves and the universe. Science deals only with the tangible, Religion with the intangible as well.

All mainstream religious teaching has its origins hundreds of years ago and these teachings will have past through the hands of many men (with many motives) since their founders first taught them. This means that invariably all religious teaching has been corrupted to some degree. But I also believe that invariably there is some measure of truth in all religions.

The tricky part is in separating the truth from false. I normally find that this comes down to a question of form versus content. Try stripping the outer form and ceremony from religion and the underlying content is usually the good stuff.
 
water said:
no amount of intellectual understanding can make a person believe in an acting God, unless God grants them so.
Click to expand...
You are an Agnostic.

You would probably do better as an atheist. They fanatically resent religion. You would do better to go around imposing self righteous attitudes, and shoving atheist doctrine down people's throats.
 
cool skill said:
You would probably do better as an atheist. They fanatically resent religion. You would do better to go around imposing self righteous attitudes, and shoving atheist doctrine down people's throats.
Click to expand...

And this is different from a Deist's behaviour in what way?
 
I think that proof of a devine creator(s) is immaterial until first there is a reasoned and logical argument presented that there is in fact a need for one beyond the ad nauseum question of "...where did everything come from..." or "...why did this happen...".

We humans tend to be curious creatures and demand a catechism. Too often our unanswered questions of actions and events are put in the filing cabinet drawer labled "Deities" for satisfaction.
 
Lori_7



“ Providing the "proof" to you personally is God's job. ”
Click to expand...



Please go tell this to Adstar.
Click to expand...

Well. You want me to persevere with you as long as i do not try to do everything i can to convicnce you of what i believe is the truth? That i do not stand up for Salvation through the Messiah Jesus?

Are you playing some psychological war game water?

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
cool skill said:
You are an Agnostic.

You would probably do better as an atheist. They fanatically resent religion. You would do better to go around imposing self righteous attitudes, and shoving atheist doctrine down people's throats.
Click to expand...
could you please produce reference material for your assertion that theres an atheist doctrine and the fanatically resentment of religion, thank you.
it would be helpful as atheism is not a belief system, and I cannot find anything in the history books regarding atheism and anti-religious Propaganda, as atheist have no leader or head, they have no organisation, they are just a group of like minded individuals all over the world.
thanking you in anticipation.
 
adstar said:
That i do not stand up for Salvation through the Messiah Jesus?
Click to expand...

There is a difference between voicing your belief and trying to convince someone of it. One is cohercive while the other is not. Letting God do the coercing sounds more Christian to me than the other way around.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top