my problem with religion

[looking_forward]

Other than the obvious scientific conflicts with religion, my biggest problem in accepting any religion is the exclusivity of religion. Almost every religion claims to be the correct one, and a follower of any religion will be glad to show you their scriptures and prophecies that 100% prove they are correct. Every religion claims their god(s) is correct and that only by following their teachings can you go to heaven.
This idea is absurd to me. Lets assume that there is one correct god, the christian god (since this is the majority of people i will be dealing with). How can this benevolent god expect his people to sort through the lies of other religions to find the real truth in christianity? Is he trying to weed out people by using other religions as booby traps, so that only those that picked christianity by chance or environment can go to heaven. That sure doesnt seem fair.
Speaking of environment, what about children born in areas where christainity isnt prevalent. These people will never be exposed to christianity, so they will take up some other "heathen" belief system and will burn in hell for it.
What kind of cruel god makes people choose the "correct" religion from a myriad of distractions? If that is the nature of god, he is not worthy of worship in my book.
I would like to hear what people think of my problem, and please dont tell me that god gave us the bible so that we could make the correct choice because he apparently also gave us the koran and vedas and other religious scriptures, so to claim that christianity or any other religion is the most compelling is absurd.
Please dont mistake me as an atheist or reductionist or materialist. I have absolutley no problem with a god, my problem is with religion. My personal view on god is best shown by the book The God Theory by Bernard Haisch.

 

[lightgigantic]

Well I think I might have posted before about the example of aspirin - there are hundreds of aspirin brands and all of them have similar if not identical ingredients and all of them claim that their product works and - lo and behold - they generally do

So sometimes you see that aspirin brands will have a competitive slant to their presentation by comparing theirs to "brand x" or whatever - but it would be a foolish religion that says their religion is the one and only - it actually reveals that the person cannot actually appreciate the quality of religion - like if a person appreciates forests they can appreciate forests in china, america and Switzerland - if someone says they appreciate american forests it indicates that they actually appreciate america first and forests second - in the same way a lot of what people claim in the name of religious devotion is merely an expansion of the bodily concept of life (nationalism for instance) and is actually a facet of illusion.

That said there are also false aspirins too, just like there are false religions

The way you can determine whether something is false or not is when you know the qualities of that thing - for instance if you know what are the actual properties of an aspirin then you can work out if an aspirin is the real article and if you know what a forest is you can locate one- in the same way that an aspirin is more than a little white tablet and a forest is more than a mere patch of land, religion is more than worshipping a "god".

Religion is actually about developing attachment to superior things (namely god and his abode) and winding down one's attachment to inferior things (the temporary things of this world that lead to wrath, lust, greed etc). In other words one enters the abode of god by dint of one's intense longing to be there and is not interested in the conglomerate opulence of a million material universes. Real religion is that process by which one develops the proper sense of attachment and detachment (in the absence of religion people simply become attached to temporary things and detached to the notion of transcendence).

That all said, some aspirins are better than others, some forests are more beautiful than others and some religions are more effective than others, but all actual aspirins help headaches in some way, all actual forests are beautiful to behold and all actual religions are better than the absence of religion

 

[TheHeretic]

Headaces are natural, Aspirin is manufactured, You dont need aspirin to get rid of a headache.

 

[Michael]

I am atheist but I lived at a Buddhist Temple while in Japan for 3 months. One day I said to the Priest of the Temple. I'm actually an atheist and while I enjoy the tradition and architecture and peace that is found in the Temple - and I think that religion can have a positive effect on society - I seriously doubt there is an afterlife other than oblivion. He said: "You're probably right" and we got along swimmingly from there.

Now I have made similar statements to my Xian and Muslim friends and pretty much everyone of them have gone seriously bonkers. Either they view me as being under the influence of the Devil or pity me because I will burn in hell or both.

So, I think it really depends on the philosophy behind the religion. Basically, monotheisms are the Dr. Phil of antiquity and suck balls because they use the carrot of Heaven and stick of Hell to get people to mindlessly obey their rules. As such they induce little enlightenment on their societies at large hence Brittany Spears and Osama Bin Laden


Michael

 

[superluminal]

Well, I was quite happy with your aspirin/religion analogy until this:

...and all actual religions are better than the absence of religion

Can you list one or two "actual" religions? Then we can discuss whether they are better or worse than their absence.

 

[lightgigantic]

Well, I was quite happy with your aspirin/religion analogy until this:


Can you list one or two "actual" religions? Then we can discuss whether they are better or worse than their absence.

By actual religion I mean religion that is properly applied (as opposed to denomination)- I recall one christian minister's words "the only thing wrong with christianity is that it hasn't been properly tried yet". Even imperfect christianity (or any religious denomination that you have a pet hate for) is an absence of religion - just like artificial grass is also an absence of grass.

 

[lightgigantic]

I am atheist but I lived at a Buddhist Temple while in Japan for 3 months. One day I said to the Priest of the Temple. I'm actually an atheist and while I enjoy the tradition and architecture and peace that is found in the Temple - and I think that religion can have a positive effect on society - I seriously doubt there is an afterlife other than oblivion. He said: "You're probably right" and we got along swimmingly from there.

Now I have made similar statements to my Xian and Muslim friends and pretty much everyone of them have gone seriously bonkers. Either they view me as being under the influence of the Devil or pity me because I will burn in hell or both.

So, I think it really depends on the philosophy behind the religion. Basically, monotheisms are the Dr. Phil of antiquity and suck balls because they use the carrot of Heaven and stick of Hell to get people to mindlessly obey their rules. As such they induce little enlightenment on their societies at large hence Brittany Spears and Osama Bin Laden


Michael

And you didn't ask yourself why he was a temple priest if he was also possessed of the same opinion?

 

[lightgigantic]

Headaces are natural, Aspirin is manufactured, You dont need aspirin to get rid of a headache.

It was only an analogy - take a pill and calm down

 

[charles cure]

It was only an analogy - take a pill and calm down

i think you missed his metaphor. the point is that religion is a manufactured answer to a problem, and it is not the natural or only solution to that problem.

 

[Michael]

And you didn't ask yourself why he was a temple priest if he was also possessed of the same opinion?

Yes, but I am not fluent at Japanese and those conversations actually take a bit more language skills to take place. Maybe if I ever get a chance to live in Japan then maybe I will have that conversation.

But, the short answer was: Anything is possible and so it is OK if you are happy in your belief.

 

[one_raven]

And you didn't ask yourself why he was a temple priest if he was also possessed of the same opinion?

I'm not sure why (s)he should.
That point of view does not contradict Buddha's teachings at all.

Along similar lines, perhaps…

An old friend of mine (Alex) was getting married quite a few years back.
He lived in the Bible Belt and was getting married to a Southern Baptist.
Before the minister would perform the ceremony, he had to meet Alex and approve of the union.
So Alex met the minister in his office some time before the ceremony.
Alex was nervous at the prospect of this because he was not only not a Southern Baptist, but he was an agnostic, leaning towards atheism. If you didn’t know, Southern Baptists have quite the reputation for being strict Bible thumpers (deserved or not) and Alex was afraid he would not perform the ceremony.

The first thing Alex said to the minister was that he had to be honest with him, and he wouldn’t pretend to be something he is not.
He told him that he is not sure if any God exists, and believes, in all likelihood that he doesn’t exist.
The minister told Alex that he felt the exact same way.
He said that he couldn’t possibly be sure God exists, and he was bordering on atheism himself.
Obviously Alex was taken aback by this and asked him how he could be a Baptist minister if he didn’t believe in God.
The minister told him that when he was younger he made the decision that, whatever he was going to do with his life, all that really mattered was that he wanted to help people.
He looked at all his options – doctor, therapist, teacher, etc – and came to the conclusion that the best way for him to help the greatest number of people and have the greatest positive impact was to be a minister, so he did.
He counsels couples and families.
People come to him for advice in the times when they most need help.
They tell him things they wouldn’t even tell their doctors.
He makes himself available to all his parishioners, and gets a great deal of pleasure out of being there for them, even if they just need someone to listen (which is most often the case).
He was a minister, not to preach about and extol the virtues of God, but because he was kind a giving, and wanted to offer people some kind of solace.

 

[pavlosmarcos]

looking_forward:
you used what you thought was the predominant religion, (xianity) however this is wrong as there are some 34,000 different aspirin manufacturers (religious sects) using the fools analogy, there are devisions in islam, and other religions, nobody knows whos right.

it's the complete opposite for atheists, there one defining thing is their lack of belief in gods, however it's even difficult to get a count of how many atheists there are, theres also the other labels used – humanist, secularist, rationalist, and realist etc....

The point I'm trying to make is, it matters not what you believe, albeit a god or not, just be happy in you beliefs, theres absolutely no reason to be part of a religious cult, it is estimated that 8% of church goers are non-believers who just go for appearance sake.
there is nothing wrong if you wish to frequent a church, but following any denomination would mean you would have to witness to the populas.
not something you or we want.
michael had it right when he said I quote "I have made similar statements to my Xian and Muslim friends and pretty much everyone of them have gone seriously bonkers. Either they view me as being under the influence of the Devil or pity me because I will burn in hell or both."


I will end with this by quote by Stephen F Roberts

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.


and welcome to sciforums, this is the place to air your views on religion.

 

[lightgigantic]

i think you missed his metaphor. the point is that religion is a manufactured answer to a problem, and it is not the natural or only solution to that problem.

What makes you think religion is manufactured?

 

[lightgigantic]

Yes, but I am not fluent at Japanese and those conversations actually take a bit more language skills to take place. Maybe if I ever get a chance to live in Japan then maybe I will have that conversation.

But, the short answer was: Anything is possible and so it is OK if you are happy in your belief.

If that is the case (All beliefs are equal - I'm ok /you're ok) then it raises severe ontological issues, namely what happens if an angry elephant has a different belief system to you

 

[lightgigantic]

I'm not sure why (s)he should.
That point of view does not contradict Buddha's teachings at all.

I would be curious to hear about that path of buddhism that doesn't acknowledge the next life - I think I vaguely remember one obscure line of buddhism that actually held that even the reality of the next life could not be confidently determined because the matreial world was just too unknowable- I mean it doesn't sound like it has a sound scriptural basis in Buddha, but anyway ....
Regarding buddhism on the whole though virtually all of them acknowledge the next life. A great majority of them also acknowledge the existence of hell too.

Along similar lines, perhaps…

An old friend of mine (Alex) was getting married quite a few years back.
He lived in the Bible Belt and was getting married to a Southern Baptist.
Before the minister would perform the ceremony, he had to meet Alex and approve of the union.
So Alex met the minister in his office some time before the ceremony.
Alex was nervous at the prospect of this because he was not only not a Southern Baptist, but he was an agnostic, leaning towards atheism. If you didn’t know, Southern Baptists have quite the reputation for being strict Bible thumpers (deserved or not) and Alex was afraid he would not perform the ceremony.

The first thing Alex said to the minister was that he had to be honest with him, and he wouldn’t pretend to be something he is not.
He told him that he is not sure if any God exists, and believes, in all likelihood that he doesn’t exist.
The minister told Alex that he felt the exact same way.
He said that he couldn’t possibly be sure God exists, and he was bordering on atheism himself.
Obviously Alex was taken aback by this and asked him how he could be a Baptist minister if he didn’t believe in God.
The minister told him that when he was younger he made the decision that, whatever he was going to do with his life, all that really mattered was that he wanted to help people.
He looked at all his options – doctor, therapist, teacher, etc – and came to the conclusion that the best way for him to help the greatest number of people and have the greatest positive impact was to be a minister, so he did.
He counsels couples and families.
People come to him for advice in the times when they most need help.
They tell him things they wouldn’t even tell their doctors.
He makes himself available to all his parishioners, and gets a great deal of pleasure out of being there for them, even if they just need someone to listen (which is most often the case).
He was a minister, not to preach about and extol the virtues of God, but because he was kind a giving, and wanted to offer people some kind of solace.

Your story illustrated something different for me, namely why christianity is in such sad shape - no wonder the western people 's faith in god is so mixed up in extremes of fanatcism and total apathy if they have such religious pretenders to lead them. What would the guy say if any sincere soul was unfortunate enough to submit a philosophical enquiry about religiousity to him?

He thinks he is helping people but ultimately he can help no one - its like a person who is pretending they are a heart surgeon but who actually only knows aromatherapy.

 

[wsionynw]

What makes you think religion is manufactured?

Because religion is MAN MADE. Books are written by peolpe, people give sermons and preach, people build churches and pray.
What makes you think religion isn't manufactured?

 

[one_raven]

its like a person who is pretending they are a heart surgeon but who actually only knows aromatherapy.

Actually, I think it would be quite different than that.
It would be more like a person who went through all the schooling to become an educated and fully qualified a heart surgeon, because he wanted to fix people's hearts, but wasn't convinced that surgery and modern medicine was the best option for people.

 

[lightgigantic]

looking_forward:
you used what you thought was the predominant religion, (xianity) .

Christianity? I don't know what gave you that impression

however this is wrong as there are some 34,000 different aspirin
manufacturers (religious sects) using the fools analogy, there are devisions in islam, and other religions, nobody knows whos right..

They also have different brands of asprin in other countries too
Actually the analogy wouldn't suffer any if there were 9 different religions or 99999999999999 different religions - if there is enough demand for asprin there can also be equivelant numbers for different brands -
The analogy illustrates that variety is not an immediate disqualification for claiming something works

it's the complete opposite for atheists, there one defining thing is their lack of belief in gods, however it's even difficult to get a count of how many atheists there are, theres also the other labels used – humanist, secularist, rationalist, and realist etc.... .

Actually in religion, despite having a common ground (ie belief in god) there is a tendency to be seperated by a false sense of identity based on country, birth, education, skin colour etc - this discrimination is not intrinsic to religion, its just intrinsic to illusion - so whatever boundaries of illusion exist in religious societies can certainly also be found in atheistic societies too

The point I'm trying to make is, it matters not what you believe, albeit a god or not, just be happy in you beliefs, theres absolutely no reason to be part of a religious cult, it is estimated that 8% of church goers are non-believers who just go for appearance sake..

Interesting statistic - makes me wonder what sort of survey they held to come to it - I mean did they ask everyone to raise their hand if they didn't believe in god, or maybe they targeted disgruntled teenagers getting dragged to church by their mothers-lol
But even if we somehow suspend our intelligence and accept such strange numbers pulled out of thin air - just see - religion is so nice that even if you are a non-believer you can appreciate a place of worship. How many secret believers of god are there that hang out with the atheists because they like the scene?

there is nothing wrong if you wish to frequent a church, but following any denomination would mean you would have to witness to the populas.
not something you or we want..

Who are the "we" who want something - if the we are people who assemble in congregations to discuss god does that mean they are brainless sheep - and if the we are people who assemble in congregations to discuss how god does not exist does that make them bold thinkers of self independence?

I will end with this by quote by Stephen F Roberts

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours..

anyone could just as easily contend that we are both theists as well -

 

[lightgigantic]

Because religion is MAN MADE. Books are written by peolpe, people give sermons and preach, people build churches and pray.
What makes you think religion isn't manufactured?

On what basis do you say that religion is man made? People also write books about the solar system and build special buildings to show displays about the solar system and have seminars about the solar system - does that mean the solar system was also created by man?

 

[lightgigantic]

Actually, I think it would be quite different than that.
It would be more like a person who went through all the schooling to become an educated and fully qualified a heart surgeon, because he wanted to fix people's hearts, but wasn't convinced that surgery and modern medicine was the best option for people.

The difference is that a heart surgeon is qualified to perform heart surgery and an aromatherapist is not - in the same way whatever way a person may dress up their mind and senses in the name of a "spiritual education" if they miss out on approaching the transcendental platform they are just a social disturbance.