My conservative proposition to Iraq:

Y

YaYa

Registered Member
I have debated extensively with myself for the past 5-6 months, from being on the all out "Bomb Saddam" side to almost proving myself wrong with what the corrupt UN has done to the Iraqi people.

I think all of the people can agree that the Iraqi people are the ones suffering. Sanctions imposed on Iraq, trying to prevent Saddam from acquiring weapons and armor, etc. haven't, in my opinion, been the thing hurting the Iraqi people. I have seen photos (yes, I will supply, if needed) of medical supplies and food rations being EXPORTED from Iraq. I have seen evidence of Saddam taking oil profits for himself and propagating the Iraqi people to scapegoat the average American. (Saddam has made over 480 palaces since the gulf war) Scapegoating, propaganda, and the tool of religious fundamentality are blinding the Iraqi people and opressing them into believing that American's are to blame. While some autonomously elected American leaders may have a hand in it, it is ultimately Saddam who is empoverishing his people -- especially the non-Ba'athists.

After (hopefully) making the point that removal of Saddam will be in the best interests of the Iraqi people, we have to ask ourselves the question -- how do you remove such a maniacal dictator?

I am not one to jump at war, and so this is my proposal: An underhand agreement with Saddam and the United States government should take place stating that we will furnish his fancy as fuck lifestyle somewhere far away from Iraq. He will in turn, be exciled. As peacefully as possible.

Now, what to be done after the removal of Saddam. I propose that democracy be established (yeah i know imperialism). I say it be established there because at this point, I honestly dont think the Iraqi's are educated enough to autonomously rule themselves. You can't just go from absolute dictatorship to complete freedom immediately. The people of Iraq deserve the same rights as any human in the world. In effect, Iraqi oil companies would be established where shipping could be made much easier and distribution of wealth would be much more even. With the removal of Saddam and a dictatorship state, I truly believe the people of Iraq can be liberated . . . with time.
 
Excellent post. The exile method has been done before of course and while it has its downside I think it’s a great solution compared to the alternatives. (Hussein has been offered exile and has either turned it down outright or doesn’t trust that it’s a legitimate offer, which it may not be.)

I call your idea waging peace. You do whatever it takes to minimize the violence and/or oppression in the long run. Sometimes that requires violence.
 
I also do agree. It is an excellent post.
I think the great majority in this world know dam well what a totalitarian government is Saddam. However, getting rid of him by western muzzle is only going to immortalize the Islamic radicals and give them, in the eyes of the Arab world, a purpose for their struggle.
One would think that if Saddam is so much disliked by his neighbors, that they would be in a better position to create a scenario for Saddam to step out. But that is also not possible, hardly any country in the neighborhood of Iraq can be considered a free democratic society, instead, most are also totalitarian and most also have an embarrassing record of human right violations that can be compared to those of US or Israel.
That leaves only the possibility for such an endeavor to the Iraqi people. Yes! Only the Iraqi people could eventually, perhaps influences by civilized external support, get rid of Saddam. However, we need to be aware that out of the entire Muslim world, Iraqis have enjoyed the largest freedom. They don’t have religious fanatics in their country, people are free to practice their religion, Islam or Christian. They can go to pubs or discos and celebrate like most westerners do, women can wear tight clothes and universities have large numbers of female students.
So, the Iraqis have a very tough choice to make in the next decade between what they have as government and the prospective of getting another government that doesn’t follow the lines of Saudi or Iran.
One thing is clear, the suffering of Iraqi people was not cause by Saddam, but by the manipulations of western governments starting with US.
Saddam was always a murder and a dictator, even in the days when he was the favor puppet of US in the Middle East.
Because we helped to create that monster, it isn’t just that now are willing to kill thousand in getting rid of him because of our own financial need.
:m:
 
Good point, Microzoft. I would add that wherever the ideas originate from, they should not be communicated through US channels, because credibility is absent. Perhaps through a hands-off and wise diplomatic US posture, with sincere attention to the burning issues of the region, US credibility could be speedily restored.

This would require first addressing the Palestinian Question, taking Israel's leash into America's teeth, and re-engaging with the Palestinian Authority. If the US could avoid alienating allies and undemining the UN, then that organization would have a chance at helping hold post-Saddam Iraq together (although I am sceptical this is possible).

The more forceful America is, the more resistance there will be to any US initiatives. There will always be a ready reserve of affection for America in the Middle East, especially in the more cosmopolitan places like Qatar, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt- but stronger still is a pent-up sense that Arab dignity has been trampled, and that Arabs have been deceived and divided by outside influences for too long. Because of the tinderbox environment laced with Islamist detonators, extreme caution is warranted for Western powers with any agenda, no matter how noble.

Unfortunately, as we approach an undeniable turning point in the Mideast, both Israel and the US are in the grips of the most radical right-wing shifts in decades. Another horrific spasm of violent confrontation is, I am afraid, imminent. Once we reach the tipping point, only guns will do the talking. Unfortunately, the guns never solve anything- they just bury the issues under the rubble like bodies, for the survivors to sort out.

I want so much to be optimistic but cannot be.
 
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The more forceful America is, the more resistance there will be to any US initiatives.
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It's nice to pretend that the world is utopian paradise when it isn't (and never has been), that the world can be made utopian by always talking nicely to others and forgiving them their transgressions even as you lock your doors and windows at night against them, or that passivity and inaction is always the best way to deal with differences of opinion and lifestyle (yeah, lets save tax dollars by firing all the cops).

But then there's the real world -- filled with people who aren't very nice and not very caring about you and your's. Surely dreams of utopia are better protection than that baseball bat you keep behind the bedroom door?

America keeps a big baseball bat behind the door for good reason. Sometimes it brings it out to show to folks who're why it's there. Sometimes such folks prefer to find out the hard way.

Such is life.
 
Posted by YaYa: I have debated extensively with myself for the past 5-6 months,
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"The Divine Secrets of the YaYa Sisterhood"...:rolleyes:
:D:D:D:D

Now seriously... yes, good post ;)
 
Originally posted by Mr. G
It's nice to pretend that the world is utopian paradise when it isn't (and never has been), that the world can be made utopian by always talking nicely to others and forgiving them their transgressions ....
America keeps a big baseball bat behind the door for good reason. Sometimes it brings it out to show to folks who're why it's there. Sometimes such folks prefer to find out the hard way.
Such is life.
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“Utopian Paradise”? That is just the excuse of those parasites that have no intellectual capacity or interest in digesting the realities of life. The boat is sinking, so what the hell, right?

Yes, the America keeps a big baseball bat behind the door. To help keep inside the house the war criminal and dictators that have found refuge in the great USA, while we don’t hesitate to use that bat when the next door neighbor comes asking for a cup of sugar or the other neighbor across the road doesn’t play our tune of music.
What so intelligent about the baseball bat analogy? ..Is it the eternal excuse for the lack of brains?
:rolleyes:
 
America keeps a big baseball bat behind the door for good reason. Sometimes it brings it out to show to folks who're why it's there. Sometimes such folks prefer to find out the hard way.
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or..
"Walk softly and carry a big stick"
F.D.R

Stop living in the 1940's Mr G

America has an AK47 in full view and it's running up and down the highway shooting three round bursts at anybody who looks it in the eye.

I'm live in the UK and you people scare me. God knows how I'd feel if I had to misfortune to live in Bagdad!

Leave those little lads alone.
Dee Cee
 
What so intelligent about the baseball bat analogy? ..Is it the eternal excuse for the lack of brains?
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G never responds back when someone questions his comments.. and the analogy is pretty stupid.. its like that dumb proverb he's been skirtin around.. 'the jackal barks but the caravan moves along'...

I am not one to jump at war, and so this is my proposal: An underhand agreement with Saddam and the United States government should take place stating that we will furnish his fancy as fuck lifestyle somewhere far away from Iraq. He will in turn, be exciled. As peacefully as possible.
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the saudis already offered him exile... but it seems like he doesn't wanna relinquish his dictatorship... that might look too weak on his part...

the way this is going, i dont see a peaceful resolution... colin powell's ridiculous assertions, hans blix's teasing, the french UN ambassadors' speech are just appetizers... main course isn't served yet... i dont think id like to even imagine what dessert is gonna be like.. :bugeye:
 
Dessert will be Scorched blood, oil, and feces, blended on full spin, and glossed over with explosive C-4 icing on the whole cake, with detonator candles.
 
"Saddam will use a "Scortched Earth" Policy to defend Iraq" -- the headline in every damn Sunday paper across the globe.

One question: how can you scortch fucking sand and desert? There's nothing but camels and a little bit of oil to burn for the love of God!
 
The same way you scorch a self-important, soulless, soft, spoiled, menacing swamp (OK it does take more weapons yield- but you can do it a little at a time)
 
sycoindian:
G never responds back when someone questions his comments..
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If true, it could be for any of a variety of reasons, like:

-Not enough time in the day to revisit all the places I've already been.

-Not enough interest on my part.

-Referenced questions/questioners are of insufficient import to warrant reply -- as my comments already capably stand on their own merits.

....and the analogy is pretty stupid.. its like that dumb proverb he's been skirtin around.. 'the jackal barks but the caravan moves along'...
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You deny that learning aids are helpful tools? You did find them useful, no? Don't tell me further simplification still is necessary.

Consider this a response to your non-question.
 
This is a great idea. The problem is that it would not deal with the biggest problems the Bush administration faces.
Mainly, diverting attention from their destroying the economy, evironment, and bill of rights.
 
"Walk softly and carry a big stick."

That was Theodore Roosevelt not Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And circa more like 1905 than the 1940s.
 
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