Multiple terror attacks in Mumbai

eZ ghost

how r u?

just wondering what your thoughts on the ISI are???


Just like the military I think they are too powerful (almost untouchable) and its impossible to know what they get up to but when you consider the position that Pakistan is in I can understand how it might be necessary. With what is going in Afghanistan and with Indian aggression on the other side (+ their occupation of Kashmir) Pakistan needs a strong and dominant military and intelligence agency. If Pakistan didn't have its nukes, its army, its intelligence agency etc. the situation would be dire. People can't seem to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes. After 9/11 and Afghanistan, the people of Pakistan thought Pakistan was about to be bombed, just imagine that. Since 9/11 there have been so many accusations and lies aimed at Pakistan, every bomb that goes off in Afghanistan is because of Pakistan, every insurgent in Afghanistan is coming over from the Pakistan border (an outrageous claim - there is fighting all over Afghanistan). Every bomb going off in India and it’s Pakistan’s fault. And as I stated in my earlier post, Pakistan has been the victim of many terrorist outrages. Pakistanis are killed by extremists, some killed by the army, yet the people of Pakistan are still portrayed as being responsible for what is going on in Afghanistan and India.

When I was in Pakistan (2007), the security situation at the border with Afghanistan was not good, there was a lot of trouble and no Pakistani wants that. In Islamabad there was a lot of security, we were searched by the army to get into a bloody circus. Terrorism affects everyone (especially innocent people), guys that just want to go about their everyday lives. People need to understand that terrorism affects Pakistanis just like it affects Afghanis and Indians. Its just too easy these days to point the finger at Pakistan and place all the blame there. Pakistan is an easy target.
 
People need to understand that terrorism affects Pakistanis just like it affects Afghanis and Indians. Its just too easy these days to point the finger at Pakistan and place all the blame there. Pakistan is an easy target.
Please note that it is not the average pakistani who is being blamed.

It is just the encouragement and resources that have always been supplied by Pakistan, and which continue to date that is the problem. At least now Pakistan should start snubbing terrorism for its own good. The statements from Pakistan's Foreign minister at least are encouraging - if they translate to actions.

True, some of what Pakistan nurtured is now cannibalizing itself.
 
SAM: Is there a possibility of this spreading ? To nearby countries such as Nepal and others ?

I doubt it. This type of large scale operation requires a large organization to support it. While copy cats can be a problem...that would not be in such a scale.

India needs to strengthen its security structure. Most of the security is in and around New Delhi. It is time to look at the larger picture and see the external threats. Why was not there units monitoring comings and goings of ships and beach activities? India now has tools and human resources to monitor and manage information in a massive scale. There should have been National Security Guards stationed in key areas of major cities.

While India usually has small military units in most cities, they may not be the speicial forces, commandos types. It is time to convert these units to Command and Control Operations with rapid deployment.
 
I've been following international terrorism for a very long time now, and I can say with confidence that I've never seen any operation resembling to this level of sophistication. Even the fancy operations that Hizballah and alQaeda planned before don't even come close. From what I've read about international terrorism, different groups with different ideologies cooperate quite frequently to achieve a common goal, such as to learn explosives techniques, share "intelligence" and technology, and other cooperation against common enemies, just like intelligence services of different countries cooperate and share info.

It is very obvious and clear that given the level of sophistication and planning there was cooperation between some governmental agency. The obvious suspect is the ISI for the following reasons:

1) they have the level of sophistication to execute and plan something like this
2) they have a huge bone to pick with India
3) they have rogue elements who don't listen to the central Pakistani government and support different groups of mujahideen in Pakistan, Pakistani tribal areas and Afghanistan
4) it would make sense they would have connections and influence among Muslim populations in India, especially the violent ones which would be used to exploit and weaken the Indian government if it came to that

I obviously have no proof, but if I were a detective I would put Pakistan's ISI as the number one suspect.
 
Bombay stumbles back to its feet:

"Am I being more careful when I go out? No, not at all. Why would I change my habits?" said resident Netra Parikh Saturday. "I'm a proud citizen and I'll face and fight for anything that comes my way."

"I went to the hospital and there were a lot of people donating blood," said resident Asfaq Tapia. "It was really wonderful to see so many people come out and help."
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Mehta said many of the people she has bonded with via social networking media, such as Twitter, plan to gather at Cafe Leopold for beer Sunday. The popular hangout for tourists was one of the first locations the gunmen targeted.

"We can't let this get to us. Life has to go on," she said. "Most us haven't ever met each other but when you go through something like this, you want a big hug."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/29/mumbai.reacts/index.html?iref=topnews

Good for them!
 
I obviously have no proof, but if I were a detective I would put Pakistan's ISI as the number one suspect.

I agree. When the sponsorship is a government, then the operation can be very sophisticated.

So far, I do not think USA has similar enemies. But knowing the chatter that some mid-eastern types slipped though the Mexican border, I think, Iran is positioning similar teams in USA in case they get attacked.

Then again it is all speculation...I still think, Prediction and Prevention is the way to go...shades of Minority Report...

Those sources told CNN-IBN said that once the commandos got the go-ahead, it took nearly three hours for them to leave for Mumbai from their undisclosed location.


Once they arrived, the sources said, commandos had no precise maps of the hotel layout or its access points.

While local police and other officers were at the scene, the sources said, the commandos and army special force units are the only ones equipped and trained to rescue hostages.
 
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its interesting that people have been saying terrorism has been getting less and less sophisticated. that the 11/9th atacks were the most stategic and well carried out and since then the technology and sophistication has been decreasing. Looking at this atack from the ourside i would suggest it is by far the worst, not interms of loss of life but rather in terms of how oragnanised and dedicated and adaptable these people have been. Once the 11/9 hijackers had the planes there work was done, there were no engagements against armed forces, they relied COMPLEATLY on surprise. This atack however was more like a millatry ground assult. They quoted a former SAS solder in australia saying that if it was him launching the atack with SAS troops he could not have done a better job of planning it for its objectives. I mean they held out for 3? days against every assult thrown at them by what i assume were india's BEST troops
 
Its because they were not prepared. Not that they will be the next time. Or the next. Terrorism is really way down on our current priorities. :p
 
I've been following international terrorism for a very long time now, and I can say with confidence that I've never seen any operation resembling to this level of sophistication. Even the fancy operations that Hizballah and alQaeda planned before don't even come close.

I obviously have no proof, but if I were a detective I would put Pakistan's ISI as the number one suspect.

What's so sophisticated? It worked because it was low-tech and simple. Go in by boat to avoid security checkpoints, like a Navy seal, and just shoot the place up.
 
its interesting that people have been saying terrorism has been getting less and less sophisticated. that the 11/9th atacks were the most stategic and well carried out and since then the technology and sophistication has been decreasing. Looking at this atack from the ourside i would suggest it is by far the worst, not interms of loss of life but rather in terms of how oragnanised and dedicated and adaptable these people have been. Once the 11/9 hijackers had the planes there work was done, there were no engagements against armed forces, they relied COMPLEATLY on surprise. This atack however was more like a millatry ground assult. They quoted a former SAS solder in australia saying that if it was him launching the atack with SAS troops he could not have done a better job of planning it for its objectives. I mean they held out for 3? days against every assult thrown at them by what i assume were india's BEST troops

The simplest is almost always the best attack. Complications only cause problems. What's interesting is that those gunmen could have probably wandered around almost unmolested for several hours shooting people at will. Instead, they chose "traps" with no ways out, and only a few people to kill.

Had I planned, there would have been dead Indians and foreigners lying all over hell's half acre! They stopped killing far, far too soon. It took the cops and the army several hours to get organized ....that's a lot of time to gun people down in the streets.

Baron Max
 
Depends on what their aim was. I think this was a practice run with amateurs.
 
I am glad to hear Pakistan is willing to to fully cooperate with India on the investigation. I hope they find those responsible and put and end to it.
 
I am glad to hear Pakistan is willing to to fully cooperate with India on the investigation. I hope they find those responsible an put and end to it.

Won't make any difference. People see how to do it now, without a lot of fanfare and planning and expensive toys. We'll see lots more of these same types of attacks all over the world.

As long as people are willing to die for some "cause" (and in today's world, that seems to mean Muslims, don't it?), then this type of low-tech killing is perfect for mass killing of innocent people ...major shock factor.

Baron Max
 
Destroying property and human life is very easy in crowded places by even semi-intelligent people. Even MI5/ Spooks television episodes showed how to do it. All you need is a bomb and a commercial off the shelf timer. Lucky for us, there are not very many terrorists planning those acts. While it is slightly dificult to make a large number of home made bombs in USA, it is very easy in India, during holidays where you can buy the chemicals openly.
 
Wow.... what a crazy few days... I am amazed by the absence of BJP and shiv sina... very distubing.





Some interesting facts about these attacks.

1- The yellow hand bands on terrorists hands... another disturbing fact.

2- Indians solved the case withing 12 hrs. Amazing but it took them 12 hrs to clear a small chabad house.

3- Israelis were disgusted by the stupidity of Indian forces, they have bothced the rescue attempts. ( I bet most of the hostages died when indian forces started using 40mm launchers and rained the place while hosties were in it)- What a wonderfull 1million men army.

4- ATS chief dead, who was investigating the Hindu Terrorism and had proof of Indian Army's involvement in Terrorism against Muslims ( sept 29th bombings)

5- A serving Indian army officer, Lt-Col Prasad Srikant Purohit, who the ATS says is the prime accused in the case ( no longer main focused due to these events )

6- Police are investigating whether some of those arrested are members of a little-known Hindu outfit called Abhinav Bharat (Young India).




FYI, ATS was investigating the following events.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-n...t--ATS/386143/


Purohit supplied RDX for Samjhauta Express blast: ATS

The Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) claimed that Purohit supplied RDX for Samjhauta Express blast.

Public prosecutor Ajay Misar said Malegaon blast accused Lt Col Purohit had links in Samjautha Express blast. He handed RDX to one 'Bhagwan'.

Ajay Misar further said Abhinav Bharat treasurer Ajay Rahirkar had handed Rs 2.5 lakh to Lt Col P S Purohit.

Lt Col P S Purohit denied being tortured by the ATS.

Purohit, who was with Military Intelligence, had told the authorities that he had thrown RDX into the Jhelum river, the special counsel said.

However, it is suspected that he transported the RDX to Deolali in Nashik, he said.

The ATS also told the court that it was investigating the source of the RDX which Purohit had obtained.

Purohit is also alleged to have conducted an arms and explosives training camp for members of right wing organisation Abhinav Bharat in Panchmarhi in Madhya Pradesh between October 16 and 21 2006, Misar said.

The public prosecutor told the court that they had found evidence of links between arrested Sadhvi Pragya Thakur Singh and religious leader Dayanand Pandey arrested in Kanpur.

The ATS has found during the course of the investigations that Pandey had introduced Purohit to Ramji Kalsangra who is wanted in the Malegaon blast, Misar said.

The court dismissed an application filed by Purohit's father-in-law alleging torture in police custody after the army official denied it in the court. Medical records also did not show any evidence of physical torture.

'We are disturbed by political insinuations'

The Maharashtra police are disturbed due to the insinuations made by political parties over the investigations into the September 29 Malegaon blasts, its chief A N Roy said on Saturday.

"We are disturbed by these insinuations... political parties should allow us to investigate without making such statements," DGP Roy told a private news channel.

Stating that the probe into the blasts that claimed six lives is reaching its final stages, Roy said, adding "every arrest made in the case is backed by strong evidence."

Roy's remarks come in the backdrop of various political leaders, particularly those belonging to the Opposition Shiv Sena-BJP alliance, questioning the way the blast investigations are being carried out.

An army officer, Lt Col P S Purohit, is among those arrested in connection with the blasts, being probed by the state's Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS), in the weavers' town of North Maharashtra.






Truly sad events. However, case has been solved and there is no more investigation is needed. Every one involved have been named and brought to justice. Since, all the terrorism in India is blamed on pakistan ( even hindu terrorism ), no more investigation is needed.
 
Hmm I never even thought about the money part.. $$. If true, then it is very very serious, India got about 1 billion people and 900 million of them are living below poverty... they all will jump off the cliff for money.

‘Smoking gun’ to harm Pakistan-India ties, fear US experts
By Anwar Iqbal and Masood Haider

WASHINGTON/New York, Nov 28: US anti-terrorism experts have warned that ‘a smoking gun’ in the Mumbai attacks could not only derail Pakistan-India talks, but also jeopardise Islamabad’s relations with Washington.

Christine Fair, a South Asia affairs analyst for US think-tank RAND Corporation, said that the attacks had raised several questions.

“Was Pakistan involved? “What type of Pakistani involvement was there? Did anyone in the government know?”

She warned that “if there is a smoking gun,” it would have serious repercussions for US-Pakistan and Pakistan-India relations.

“The attacks will increase pressure on the incoming Obama administration to be tough on Pakistan,” she warned.

Bruce Riedel, a former South Asia analyst for the CIA and the US National Security Council who now advises President-elect Barack Obama, agreed.

“This is a new, horrific milestone in the global jihad,” he told The Washington Post.

“No indigenous Indian group has this level of capability. The goal is to damage the symbol of India’s economic renaissance, undermine investor confidence and provoke an India-Pakistan crisis.”

But Ms Fair believed that the attacks were apparently carried out by indigenous Indian militants with some outside support.

“This isn’t India’s 9/11. This is India’s Oklahoma City,” said Ms Fair, referring to an April 1995 domestic attack in the US that killed 168 people.

“It is almost unimaginable that this could have been done entirely by outside militants without Indian involvement; implications are very dangerous,” she told Dawn.

“There are a lot of “very, very angry Muslims in India. The economic disparities are startling,” she said. “This is a major domestic political challenge for India.”

Ms Fair said it was not possible to deny what happened during anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat in 2002.

“You have Islamist militants in India and you have a militarised Hindu right; these are small numbers but they feed on each other, without one the other will be difficult to exist,” she said.

Ms Fair said the Indians had a ‘strong incentive’ to link this to Al Qaeda,” but so far no one has presented any evidence to show that Al Qaeda is involved.

Another important question, she said, was how Israel would respond, especially if there’s a Pakistani involvement. “Another important question is: Could this be a reaction to (secret) Pakistan-Israel talks?”

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Namrata Goswami, associate fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi, agreed with Ms Fair.

“They want to establish some kind of linkage with Al Qaeda,” she told USA Today. “But I don’t believe it is there. The motive is very, very clear. This outfit wants to attract sponsors abroad. There’s a lot of money in it.”

Ms Goswami also endorsed Ms Fair’s views that Indian Muslims bore plenty of grievances against the Hindu majority. They lag behind economically. And they have been targeted by Hindu extremists; hundreds of Muslims died, for instance, in communal riots in Gujarat in 2002, she said.

Gary Ackerman, a pro-Indian Democratic Congressman from New York, worried about the Mumbai attacks’ implications for the United States.

“The implication for us is that there are bad guys still out there, and we’re going to have to learn how to deal with them, because our friends are getting sucked into this big-time,” said Congressman Ackerman, who chairs the House subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.

USA Today quoted Bahukutumbi Raman, former head of counter-terrorism for India’s intelligence agency, saying that the attackers caught Indian security forces unprepared.

“Till now, we were greeting with glee Pakistan’s incompetence in dealing with terrorism,” he said. “We can no longer do so. We have become as clueless as Pakistan.”

One highly placed US intelligence official, who has been briefed on the attacks, told CNN that the head of the operation was a Bangladeshi and that the militants were Indians, Kashmiris and Bangladeshis. The Indian military had sustained a large number of casualties, the source said.

The experts who spoke to CNN also mentioned another group called the Indian Mujahideen. Despite its relatively new status, the organization is thought to have the organisational capability to carry out such attacks, said Paul Cruickshank, a fellow at the Centre on Law and Security at New York University’s School of Law.

Experts and analysts are warning against rush to judgment.

The New York Times said on Friday “many security experts insist the style of the attacks and the targets in Mumbai suggested the militants were likely to be Indian Muslims, with a domestic agenda” suggesting it may not be the work of Pakistan’s intelligence services or Al Qaeda.

Referring to a claim by a previously unknown outfit ‘Deccan Mujahideen’ that it has carried out the attacks, an Indian security official, who spoke on condition of anonymity with the newspaper, said the name suggested ties to a group called Indian Mujahideen.

The Indian Mujahideen has been implicated in a string of bombing attacks in the country killing about 200 people this year alone.

http://dawn.com/2008/11/29/top9.htm
 
According to Sebastian D'Souza, a picture editor at the Mumbai Mirror, the initial police response was underwhelming:
But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

As the gunmen fired at policemen taking cover across the street, Mr D'Souza realised a train was pulling into the station unaware of the horror within. "I couldn't believe it. We rushed to the platform and told everyone to head towards the back of the station. Those who were older and couldn't run, we told them to stay put."

The militants returned inside the station and headed towards a rear exit towards Chowpatty Beach. Mr D'Souza added: "I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article14086308.ece
D'Souza took this picture of one of the terrorists:
gunman_47241t.jpg
 
Experts and analysts are warning against rush to judgment.

In other words, keep throwing stuff and see what sticks....The Indian Police are not trained for a shoot out. That is the job of SWAT teams or National Counterterrorism Squads...Oh...well...hopefully they will quickly learn...in the BPO capital of the world....(unless it is a hype!)
 
Hype and Incompetence

"The hostage takers in Mumbai didn't need to wonder how large an armed rescue team the Indian government was sending, or when to anticipate its arrival. They had only to click on the nearest TV set, and there was the federal home minister, Shivraj Patil, obliviously telling viewers that 200 commandos had taken off on the two-hour flight from New Delhi at 2:30 a.m. Even after the aircraft had landed in Mumbai, the gunmen had plenty of time to get ready, as the troops were herded aboard rickety transport buses to be hauled from the city's northern edge to its southern tip. The commandos finally reached the scene about 6:30, roughly nine hours after the terrorists had launched their murderous attacks in the financial capital of India. The battle would drag on for the next two days while the body count reached 195 before the last gunman went down."
 
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