I would say a very very bad word right here. But I'm going to pretend that you're a dipshit who has no fucking clue.
Multiple terror attacks in Mumbai
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
I would say a very very bad word right here. But I'm going to pretend that you're a dipshit who has no fucking clue.
Sam: "I would not call a command center in the hotel room [where the rates range from 5000 to 10,000 USD], infiltration of the hotel staff and disbursement of the cops in various parts of the city through co-ordinated bombings and a three day siege of the most recognisable landmark of Mumbai as incoherent. They had enough weaponry to hold out for 3 days against cops, commandos and the reserve army. Thats not irrational. I don't think underplaying the fact that they were an organised bunch with no intention to escape [if they were masked, no one could have ID'ed them if they merely walked out] is useful."
It was not a very mindful, if not mindless rampage. I don't think that any attempt to define their obviously twisted rationale is productive at this stage of investigation.
This was not "India's 9-11". There was no credible claim of responsibility. No manifesto. This is different.
It was not a very mindful, if not mindless rampage. I don't think that any attempt to define their obviously twisted rationale is productive at this stage of investigation.
This was not "India's 9-11". There was no credible claim of responsibility. No manifesto. This is different.
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Possibly but I doubt it very very much Hype. Muhajideen, Jewish center, etc. I appreciate that its deductive, but Sherlock Holmes founded a whole book series on the same.
Go ahead, say your very very bad word; I won't hold it against you. Syzygys indirectly calls the terrorists stupid and your knee-jerk reaction is to jump in. I merely find it...notable. Maybe you should examine your own feelings.
In what way? They exploded a bomb in VT and Vile Parle and had shootout in Leopold, that distributes the cops in three directions. Then they holed up in Nariman House, the Taj and Oberoi. If you see the map, you can tell they had to work from the inside out. It was an odd plan - the Leopold shootout would block the roads, the VT bombing should have blocked the trains [except that Mumbaikars have become blase about bombings and trains were still coming in]. So perhaps the expected response did not happen?
Pfffft! I agree. The local analysts ruled out the claims that were put forward almost immediately.
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Perhaps. All I'm saying is that this rampage either failed to communicate, or had little of substance to say. That's why guessing at the message is far premature. In my personal opinion of effective response to terrorism, even a coherent message (which this attack conspicuously lacks) should be actively suppressed anyway.
I agree, but based on past experiences, it will be some independent investigative journalist who will expose the truth. Watch out for tehelka or the like.
Thats pretty much what the Indian governemnt does. Their response to the bombing of Rajeev Gandhi [our PM] was to sign a peace treaty with the LTTE.
So long as the search for accomplices is not neglected, I really don't care what motivated those fuckers. My hunch is that rational motive may not be the key to resolving this case.
Sam: "[Suppression of terrorist message is] pretty much what the Indian governemnt does. Their response to the bombing of Rajeev Gandhi [our PM] was to sign a peace treaty with the LTTE."
It's a wise policy for governments to keep policy and terrorist demands as independent issues- to abolish fear as a legitimate component of policy-making.
It's a wise policy for governments to keep policy and terrorist demands as independent issues- to abolish fear as a legitimate component of policy-making.
Wow! It's wise policy for the government to withhold info from the citizens? Hard to believe that you're making that statement, Hype. Are you sure that you're not pretending to be Hype??
And then turn right around and make it seem that it's a "legitimate" way for governments to make policy? Wow! All I can say is ....Wow!
Baron Max
Baron Max: "Wow! It's wise policy for the government to withhold info from the citizens?"
It's wise for governments not to assist terrorists in their work, especially when the terrorist motive appears likely to include causing confusion and division. This latest massacre is an example where broadcasting assumed intentions is not productive. Criminal investigations often require secured information. I would not include in this principle the suppression of public information, or the permanent suppression by the government of any information gathered (so long as eventual disclosure does not violate the privacy of persons not involved criminally).
Responsible governments should actively and emphatically discourage public conjecture in such cases as this.
I'm referring to the hypotheses that investigators pursue, as information that may be justifiably -but not indefinitely- suppressed. Once the truth is found, let it out. Until then, investigators should run their scenarios discreetly.
It's wise for governments not to assist terrorists in their work, especially when the terrorist motive appears likely to include causing confusion and division. This latest massacre is an example where broadcasting assumed intentions is not productive. Criminal investigations often require secured information. I would not include in this principle the suppression of public information, or the permanent suppression by the government of any information gathered (so long as eventual disclosure does not violate the privacy of persons not involved criminally).
Responsible governments should actively and emphatically discourage public conjecture in such cases as this.
I'm referring to the hypotheses that investigators pursue, as information that may be justifiably -but not indefinitely- suppressed. Once the truth is found, let it out. Until then, investigators should run their scenarios discreetly.
I'm not sure why you say that. That same MO has been used in many terrorist attacks around the world. There ain't nothin' new about this one except in this one they took over a big hotel. But the same MO has been used before, many times.
Baron Max
kmguru
Staff member
There are internal organizations in India such as Naxalite that can cause serious problems too. Lucky for us, they do not have access to heavy weaponry. So, those issues should be resolved politically, otherwise....more of the same...
Why wait for disruptions and go about non-chalant...I think prevention is a better policy...that is how we should deal with these issues.
Why wait for disruptions and go about non-chalant...I think prevention is a better policy...that is how we should deal with these issues.
kmguru
Staff member
kmguru
Staff member
Active intelligence, rapid response teams, strike where the terrorists live, security scanners, diplomatic actions etc...
kmguru, all of those are standard nearly everywhere, but one "preventative measure" you listed surprises me:
"strike where the terrorists live"
Would you please elaborate on that?
"strike where the terrorists live"
Would you please elaborate on that?
Just to clear few more things about this whole chaos. So far Indian agencies and media is clue less about what had hit them, they are still making utter stupid statements and talking nonsense about the whole thing.
1-First they knew that these guys were from Pakistan because they spoken in norther indian accent or northern indian punjabi. What???
2-They don't have any terrorist in custody. Either they have been esacped or killed. This drama is for public consumption and elections. Shiv sina and BJP got the most out of this horrible attack.
3-First claimed that they found the bullets with POF written on them from the bodies of victims, every one knows that no one can find out where the bullets are made by looking at the fired bullet itself ( no writing can he read that way), only casing can tell it and that is only if it got any markings.
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/s...e=pWehHe7IsSU=
What a bunch of nonsense, a country where it took them 8 hrs to get the swat teams out, they were able to tell that in 2 hrs?
4-Indians still don't know how many terrorists were there? First there were 26 then 20, then 18 and then 12 and now 10, they have killed 20 terrorist first, i wonder who did they actually killed when they don't even know who the terrorists were?
5- why are the indians in hurry of burying the dead terrorists? are they afraid some one will find the truth? or they dont have the bodies? or they are doing it so the true identity of those men will never be disclosed. I think atleast FBI and Mosad teams should be allowed to see the bodies.
http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/...i-attackers-yn
More contradictions
6- India media said that the surviving attacker was not educated beyond 4th grade and then they said he was fluent in english.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7759309.stm
7- ‘Initial probe shows no Pakistan link’
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp...-12-2008_pg1_3
WOW Can't believe that BBC got it right this time:
The blame game over who was responsible for bloody terror attacks in the western Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay) has a sense of déjà vu about it.
Security experts have criticised the response to the attacks, which left nearly 200 people dead, as "amateurish, sluggish and feeble".
Indian intelligence agencies are leaking information that they gave about half a dozen warnings to the government in Maharashtra state - of which Mumbai is the capital.
The reports say Maharashtra was warned that strikes were being planned on city landmarks, including, possibly, the Taj Mahal hotel at the historic Gateway of India.
Authorities in Mumbai flatly deny that they received any tip-offs. "It is unimaginable that we would have got this sensitive information and not react," says state Interior Secretary Chitkala Zutshi.
Knee-jerk responses
But security experts confirm that information extracted from a group of Indian and Pakistani men arrested in northern India earlier this year revealed that some men belonging to Pakistan-based groups had done a reconnaissance of major landmarks in Mumbai. The agencies had also been picking up militant chatter on attacks in the city.
The police in India are working on manpower and equipment assessments last made in the 1970s
Security analyst Praveen Swami
Yet the local police and intelligence agencies appeared to have failed to act on any of the information - despite doubts as to whether the information was shared promptly enough between the Mumbai authorities.
This is a story which keeps repeating itself in a country which has been hit by over half a dozen big "terror attacks" this year - the central and local security authorities trade charges over the sharing and quality of intelligence, followed by knee-jerk responses and investigations which fizzle out in a couple of years.
The attacks and their aftermath again point to the rot that has set into the country's internal security system and a lack of cohesion between civilian and security wings of the government.
One telling example: six days after the attack, even the number of dead and injured keeps going up and down, due to poor co-ordination between the police and hospitals.
More seriously, the Indian police appear to be incapacitated by a lack of money and training. Poor working conditions, rudimentary surveillance and communications equipment, inadequate forensic science laboratories and outdated weaponry are making matters worse.
"The Mumbai attacks prove that the whole system is falling apart. The police in India are working on manpower and equipment assessments last made in the 1970s," says security analyst Praveen Swami.
The fact that the gunmen came by sea - and sneaked into the city through a crowded fishing colony - points to almost non-existent coastal police patrols, as a local officer admits.
All that the police have is a couple of launches. They have no radar.
The Mumbai police - like most police in India - remain in a time warp: they are equipped with World War II vintage rifles and carbines handed down by the army. In most states, an average policeman's salary and status is equivalent to that of an unskilled municipal worker, encouraging corruption.
Inadequate protection
Budgets do not extend to supplying food to police personnel on shift, so many end up extorting food from street hawkers. They also routinely hitch free rides because they don't have enough vehicles.
Training and faster response times are urgently needed, critics say
Bullet proof vests are of inferior quality and phone interception equipment remains largely rudimentary.
And three years after the central government announced the setting up an ambitious National Police Mission to set out the future needs and requirements of the force, nothing has happened.
India's commando forces are also not exactly in good shape.
A group of the elite 7,400-strong National Security Guards (NSG) - who were flown in to Mumbai eight hours after the attacks - is based near the capital, Delhi. Many of the commandos, say experts, are wasted in giving protection to politicians and other VIPs.
The country's best commando force does not have its own aircraft. As a result, it has become used to spending hours reaching crisis locations, with mixed results.
"On average, the commando force has taken six to seven hours to reach and begin their operations and get their act together every time they have been called for. There have been delays," says Praveen Swami.
He says the commandos have been trained to rescue small groups of people. "They have not been trained on multiple location operations of such scale."
'No way to fight terrorism'
Any deficiencies in their training may be explained by the fact that a Mumbai-type attack only happens very rarely.
Attackers arrived by sea, police say
That is why Indian security experts like Ajai Sahni say that the response to the attacks was so poor.
"This is no way to fight terrorism," he says.
After the Mumbai attacks, the local government announced it would set up a state commando force: to begin with, some 500 armed men would be ready in four months.
This, when the basic training for the NSG commandos takes six months. And Maharashtra, along with other states, has no commando training centres.
A number of states where there have been attacks by Maoist rebels plan to raise their own commando forces, but early results point to hasty, faulty planning.
The authorities in eastern Orissa state, for example, hired 8,000 new policemen for anti-Maoist operations, but found to their dismay that it took six months to train just 350 of them.
There are allegations that many of the candidates paid bribes to get into the force.
India is seen as a 'soft' target
Painfully slow and lazy bureaucracy means that the modernisation of the security forces often takes ages. Police in Uttar Pradesh state took four years to buy imported surveillance equipment.
By the time it arrived, it had become outdated and now lies disused. One police official even paid by his own credit card to pick up a piece of $60 equipment from a foreign website for his forces because it would have taken him months, if not years, to acquire it.
With their bureaucratic ways of working, the intelligence agencies are also struggling.
There is a dearth of language specialists. India's spy agency, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), is reported by insiders to have only two Arabic and two Chinese language specialists, hired from language schools.
But the best do not stay on because of poor wages, and one of the Chinese language specialists who was trained in cyber-technology quit to join one of India's top industrial groups.
"Things have to begin from scratch to boost internal security in India. Authorities should come clean to the people and tell them how bad the situation is and set time-bound targets to begin improving security infrastructure," says Praveen Swami.
Otherwise, he warns, India will continue to be one of the softest targets for terror strikes in the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7760460.stm
Senior Foreign Ministry officials lashed out at the Zaka rescue and recovery organization on Monday, charging that the group was causing considerable damage to Indo-Israeli ties by "meddling" in Mumbai.
"They are causing all kinds of problems," a senior Foreign Ministry official said of the six-man team that flew Thursday on its own volition to Mumbai. "They are selling all kinds of stories to journalists looking for stories, and taking credit for things they didn't do."
Charges by the head of the Zaka team in Mumbai reported in The Jerusalem Post on Monday that the Jewish hostages in the Chabad House may have been killed by Indian commandos, and not by the terrorists, infuriated the Foreign Ministry, with one official saying that these types of "irresponsible comments" can have serious diplomatic repercussions.
( I have been saying it since i saw the pictures of indians comandos shooting with 40mm launchers- While hosties were in the building)
"How can they say such a thing?" one official said. "Did they do an autopsy, do they know what type of bullet caused the wound? Do they have forensic or ballistic expertise? This is not the type of thing you can determine just by looking at a body."
( exactly, but you can say that by looking at the dead body of a terrorists that where he is from, where he was trained and what kind of islamic militant gang he worked with and what city he lived in pakistan :shrug
Asked whether he really thought that the Indians were unable to take external criticism of their actions, he said that they can take the criticism in private, but not the way it was publicly being voiced in Israel. "This type of public criticism is an embarrassment for them," he said.
( well indians have bothced the whole operation, looking to blame every one now )
On Sunday the Foreign Ministry, already concerned that public criticism in Israel was having a negative effect in New Delhi, issued a statement saying that Israel thanked the Indians for their efforts and cooperation. And on Monday Prime Minister Ehud Olmert spoke to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, conveyed Israel's condolences on the loss of life in the terrorist attacks and praised India for the way it dealt with the crisis.
According to a statement issued by the Prime Minister's Office, Olmert expressed his appreciation for the Indian military's "brave response and determination and said that bravery and determination are the most important components in dealing with terrorism."
Singh told Olmert that the determined nature of the Indian responses sprung from a belief that "there can be no negotiations with terrorists, and they must be dealt with by force." The two agreed to tighten the counter-terrorist coordination between the two countries. ( ya and he was also sorry that indian forces killed all the hostages during rescue)
Regarding Zaka, one senior Foreign Ministry official said that the six-man team went to Mumbai on its own, and was not working together with the official Israeli representatives on the ground.
"It is not exactly clear what they are doing there," the official said.
According to the official, the Indian authorities removed the bodies from the home, and there was no need for Zaka to do what it often is called upon to do after terrorist attacks in Israel - collect body parts.
Zaka spokesman Motti Bukjin deflected the criticism, and also said that the group had no intention of leveling criticism at the Indian government.
Bukjin said that Zaka volunteers worked around the clock in Mumbai helping to identify the bodies, sponge up blood for burial with the bodies, deal with damaged Torah scrolls in the Chabad House and remove some of the six bodies from the house.
Once these bodies were removed, he said the Zaka volunteers remained with them around-the-clock so they were not mixed up with other bodies, and - together with Foreign Ministry officials - to ensure that no autopsies were performed on them.
He said Zaka would sit down with Foreign Ministry officials at a later date to draw conclusions from the events in Mumbai
Bottom line, Indians don't have a clue who attacked them or they know exactly who attacked them and they knew it all along, I still say that Yellow band on the terrorist's hand is a big clue. For the people who knows the local language it is very hard to digest that terrorists were speaking urdu and not hindi.
sam they were dicussing the atacks again on the radio this morning. I forget where the video is but they were talking about a video of 2 cops despratly trying to stop one of the atackers. These 2 cops had no bullet proof vests, and there only weapon was ONE (yes ONE) rifle between them, no hand guns, no shot guns
I hope they servived. I cant even IMAGIN the courage it must have taken to try to assult a heavly armed person with an automatic AK-47 with only one gun between the two and no protection
I hope they servived. I cant even IMAGIN the courage it must have taken to try to assult a heavly armed person with an automatic AK-47 with only one gun between the two and no protection